Converting to Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not just follow the Noahide laws? That's how gentiles (like you and I) go to heaven according to Orthodox Judaism.

Only 7 laws Vs 613.
I don’t think it is about heaven,
It is to be be considered a moral person .

Right. PP is twisting Judaism and it’s pretty offensive. We really don’t have a developed concept of heaven or hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not just follow the Noahide laws? That's how gentiles (like you and I) go to heaven according to Orthodox Judaism.

Only 7 laws Vs 613.
I don’t think it is about heaven,
It is to be be considered a moral person .

Right. PP is twisting Judaism and it’s pretty offensive. We really don’t have a developed concept of heaven or hell.

Yes! The Noahide Laws are:
Do establish laws.
Do not curse God.
Do not practice idolatry.
Do not engage in illicit sexuality.
Do not participate in bloodshed.
Do not rob.
Do not eat flesh from a living animal.

They are just about being a good person. If OP is actually interested in Judaism, there is no reason for them not to look into it further.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?

My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

The state of Israel barely recognizes most American Jews who were born to generations of Jews as Jewish these days, but that's more a comment on the Israeli Orthodox movement than it is on Jews in general.

What is “barely recognize” means?
They do or they don’t, if you want to immigrate to Israel ?
Which is it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

You seem to have an axe to grind. So you have a problem with Jews?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

So if we don’t actively try to convert people then we’re elitist? We accept people who convert, but we don’t solicit converts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

I never thought of it that way. I didn’t know my daughter would not be fully accepted. Do Jewish people treat converts and their kids differently or is it just some unspoken rule that converts are not really Jewish? Sort of depressing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

I never thought of it that way. I didn’t know my daughter would not be fully accepted. Do Jewish people treat converts and their kids differently or is it just some unspoken rule that converts are not really Jewish? Sort of depressing.

I converted to Judaism 12 years ago and I feel fully accepted by my community and my Jewish in laws. I occasionally come across someone who feels like PP, but it's rare these days, and they almost never know me personally, or make an attempt to get to know me.

The concept of l'dor v'dor (from generation to generation) is a central part of Jewish life and Jewish theology. Every Jewish community I have been a part of has had conversations (both big congregation-wide or movement-wide, and personal) about Jewish continuity and the continued existence of the Jewish people into the next generation. It's just something that every Jewish person worries about on some level. Some people leave those conversations feeling like PP that conversion is a not-ideal-but-necessary thing to combat intermarriage and keep the next generation Jewish. In my personal and professional experience in the Reform and Conservative movements (my job is in the Jewish community as well), that belief is on its way out. I'm not treated differently because I'm a convert and my kids aren't treated differently as the children of a convert.

That said, there are people in every society who want to share their traditions with the next generation and lament when they can't. I grew up baking Christmas cookies and decorating Easter eggs with my grandma, and I know that's something that my mom wanted to do with her grandkids someday. My parents saved all of my Christmas ornaments from when I was little hoping to pass them down to me when I became an adult. My dad loves Christmas cartoons and would love to watch them with his grandkids. But my parents can't do those things with their grandkids because their grandkids are Jewish. My parents have always been supportive of my Judaism and they find other ways to connect with my kids, but it's still a loss of something they expected to have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

As a Buddhist, I understand it more us stay on your lane and let us stay in our lane kind of philosophy.
Do what you do and let’s us do what we do.
Judaism is not worried about saving you from hell or rewarding you with heaven.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

I never thought of it that way. I didn’t know my daughter would not be fully accepted. Do Jewish people treat converts and their kids differently or is it just some unspoken rule that converts are not really Jewish? Sort of depressing.

I converted to Judaism 12 years ago and I feel fully accepted by my community and my Jewish in laws. I occasionally come across someone who feels like PP, but it's rare these days, and they almost never know me personally, or make an attempt to get to know me.

The concept of l'dor v'dor (from generation to generation) is a central part of Jewish life and Jewish theology. Every Jewish community I have been a part of has had conversations (both big congregation-wide or movement-wide, and personal) about Jewish continuity and the continued existence of the Jewish people into the next generation. It's just something that every Jewish person worries about on some level. Some people leave those conversations feeling like PP that conversion is a not-ideal-but-necessary thing to combat intermarriage and keep the next generation Jewish. In my personal and professional experience in the Reform and Conservative movements (my job is in the Jewish community as well), that belief is on its way out. I'm not treated differently because I'm a convert and my kids aren't treated differently as the children of a convert.

That said, there are people in every society who want to share their traditions with the next generation and lament when they can't. I grew up baking Christmas cookies and decorating Easter eggs with my grandma, and I know that's something that my mom wanted to do with her grandkids someday. My parents saved all of my Christmas ornaments from when I was little hoping to pass them down to me when I became an adult. My dad loves Christmas cartoons and would love to watch them with his grandkids. But my parents can't do those things with their grandkids because their grandkids are Jewish. My parents have always been supportive of my Judaism and they find other ways to connect with my kids, but it's still a loss of something they expected to have.

Why can’t your parents do those things with your kids? I don’t understand
Sounds too controlling
I get the impression converts are tolerated, expected to remain as religious Jews not cultural jews and somewhat watched
Do you think your experience would have been the same if you didn’t have children or were not that observant?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

I never thought of it that way. I didn’t know my daughter would not be fully accepted. Do Jewish people treat converts and their kids differently or is it just some unspoken rule that converts are not really Jewish? Sort of depressing.

I converted to Judaism 12 years ago and I feel fully accepted by my community and my Jewish in laws. I occasionally come across someone who feels like PP, but it's rare these days, and they almost never know me personally, or make an attempt to get to know me.

The concept of l'dor v'dor (from generation to generation) is a central part of Jewish life and Jewish theology. Every Jewish community I have been a part of has had conversations (both big congregation-wide or movement-wide, and personal) about Jewish continuity and the continued existence of the Jewish people into the next generation. It's just something that every Jewish person worries about on some level. Some people leave those conversations feeling like PP that conversion is a not-ideal-but-necessary thing to combat intermarriage and keep the next generation Jewish. In my personal and professional experience in the Reform and Conservative movements (my job is in the Jewish community as well), that belief is on its way out. I'm not treated differently because I'm a convert and my kids aren't treated differently as the children of a convert.

That said, there are people in every society who want to share their traditions with the next generation and lament when they can't. I grew up baking Christmas cookies and decorating Easter eggs with my grandma, and I know that's something that my mom wanted to do with her grandkids someday. My parents saved all of my Christmas ornaments from when I was little hoping to pass them down to me when I became an adult. My dad loves Christmas cartoons and would love to watch them with his grandkids. But my parents can't do those things with their grandkids because their grandkids are Jewish. My parents have always been supportive of my Judaism and they find other ways to connect with my kids, but it's still a loss of something they expected to have.

Why can’t your parents do those things with your kids? I don’t understand
Sounds too controlling
I get the impression converts are tolerated, expected to remain as religious Jews not cultural jews and somewhat watched
Do you think your experience would have been the same if you didn’t have children or were not that observant?

DP and as a non-convert (born Jewish) I wouldn't let my kids do Christian activities either, at least not when they are young and not if they're explicitly Christian (versus making cookies with friends that aren't Santa or Christmas tree shaped). Once they're over age 10 or so, maybe. Before that the focus is on establishing their Jewish identity, which means swimming upstream against the dominant culture. No Christmas, no Easter eggs, no dress with a bunny or shamrocks (sorry DD). Halloween and Valentines Day are ok with us but lots of people don't agree.

You may call it controlling and of course, it is. And it's for a reason, which is passing down our culture and religion in a country that values neither. As the kids get older and exposed to more influences, they'll make their own decisions. While they're small, I want them to learn Jewish customs and values and always have those, and not the broader Christian culture, as a default. I grew up sort of in both worlds - Jewish but attended a Christian day school because my parent worked there and tuition was free - and I can see the difference in what my children learn versus what I learned. My 9 year old doesn't even know who Jesus Christ is, and I am fine with that. Whereas I knew from age 5 because we went to chapel once a week. They'll have all the rest of their lives to hear about Christianity in the US. For now, they can imprint as Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

I never thought of it that way. I didn’t know my daughter would not be fully accepted. Do Jewish people treat converts and their kids differently or is it just some unspoken rule that converts are not really Jewish? Sort of depressing.

I converted to Judaism 12 years ago and I feel fully accepted by my community and my Jewish in laws. I occasionally come across someone who feels like PP, but it's rare these days, and they almost never know me personally, or make an attempt to get to know me.

The concept of l'dor v'dor (from generation to generation) is a central part of Jewish life and Jewish theology. Every Jewish community I have been a part of has had conversations (both big congregation-wide or movement-wide, and personal) about Jewish continuity and the continued existence of the Jewish people into the next generation. It's just something that every Jewish person worries about on some level. Some people leave those conversations feeling like PP that conversion is a not-ideal-but-necessary thing to combat intermarriage and keep the next generation Jewish. In my personal and professional experience in the Reform and Conservative movements (my job is in the Jewish community as well), that belief is on its way out. I'm not treated differently because I'm a convert and my kids aren't treated differently as the children of a convert.

That said, there are people in every society who want to share their traditions with the next generation and lament when they can't. I grew up baking Christmas cookies and decorating Easter eggs with my grandma, and I know that's something that my mom wanted to do with her grandkids someday. My parents saved all of my Christmas ornaments from when I was little hoping to pass them down to me when I became an adult. My dad loves Christmas cartoons and would love to watch them with his grandkids. But my parents can't do those things with their grandkids because their grandkids are Jewish. My parents have always been supportive of my Judaism and they find other ways to connect with my kids, but it's still a loss of something they expected to have.

Why can’t your parents do those things with your kids? I don’t understand
Sounds too controlling
I get the impression converts are tolerated, expected to remain as religious Jews not cultural jews and somewhat watched
Do you think your experience would have been the same if you didn’t have children or were not that observant?

DP and as a non-convert (born Jewish) I wouldn't let my kids do Christian activities either, at least not when they are young and not if they're explicitly Christian (versus making cookies with friends that aren't Santa or Christmas tree shaped). Once they're over age 10 or so, maybe. Before that the focus is on establishing their Jewish identity, which means swimming upstream against the dominant culture. No Christmas, no Easter eggs, no dress with a bunny or shamrocks (sorry DD). Halloween and Valentines Day are ok with us but lots of people don't agree.

You may call it controlling and of course, it is. And it's for a reason, which is passing down our culture and religion in a country that values neither. As the kids get older and exposed to more influences, they'll make their own decisions. While they're small, I want them to learn Jewish customs and values and always have those, and not the broader Christian culture, as a default. I grew up sort of in both worlds - Jewish but attended a Christian day school because my parent worked there and tuition was free - and I can see the difference in what my children learn versus what I learned. My 9 year old doesn't even know who Jesus Christ is, and I am fine with that. Whereas I knew from age 5 because we went to chapel once a week. They'll have all the rest of their lives to hear about Christianity in the US. For now, they can imprint as Jewish.

Convert PP here. Yes to all of this, thank you for this. It's so well-said.

To PP's question about religious vs. cultural, there is no way to convert to cultural Judaism without religion. There was an article (maybe in Tablet or The Forward?) about maybe creating a cultural conversion, but it didn't go anywhere because it doesn't make a lot of sense. Again, I'm accepted, not just "tolerated." My level of observance has ebbed and flowed (Reform, Conservative, Modern Orthodox and back to Conservative), but I've always been religious and cultural.

I haven't tested it and don't really plan to, because I am happy with my level of observance, but I'm guessing at this point if I stopped ever going to synagogue and just did Chanukah and Passover at home and ate bagels and lox, I would be treated the same as I am now, or the same as any other Jew who used to go to shul and doesn't anymore.

I was Jewish for 7 years before I had kids, so I had plenty of time to think about how I would be Jewish before thinking about how my kids would be Jewish. It hasn't really changed much in that department.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any converts here? For many years I’ve felt inexplicably drawn to the religion. Yesterday I picked up “Choosing a Jewish Life” by Anita Diamant and am reading with interest.

What books/resources are recommended? I’m nervous to start attending services but know that will be a natural next step. Many thanks in advance.

I'm not sure you realize what you're getting into. Being drawn to the religion is not seen as a credible reason to convert to Judaism.

What is a credible reason? [not OP]

Marriage and clear commitment to the community. Like another PP says Judaism is an ethnicity more than a religion. It's very different from Christianity.

Please don’t try to tell Jews about what our (many and varied) communities “see as valid.” There many be individual Jews who feel as you describe, but in my experience they tend to be folks who don’t know much (or any) Hebrew and don’t know or observe Jewish religious law. So, they denigrate the religion because they don’t know anything about it, and they claim Judaism is an ethnicity. In my experience, almost all Jews are very accepting of converts. This is particularly true of Orthodox people with respect to converts who study and observe. The orthodox synagogue I used to attend was very, very accepting of converts, and had several who were super active in weekly services - like a professor who converted in his 60s and could beautifully sight-read haftarahs, and would be the default maftir if nobody else did it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

The person you are responding to doesn’t know what they are talking about, and seems kinda anti-Semitic. I’d urge you not to listen to opinions about Jewish communities from someone bloviating about what “they” want or don’t want. Instead, ask us directly. As someone who converted more than 30 years ago (not to get married), I can tell you that converts are almost universally accepted, and, in fact, there are specific religious laws mandating acceptance of converts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t Jewish people want converts?
My daughter converted when she married a Jewish man and everything seems fine? Am I missing something?

Have you ever heard of a Jewish missionary? Did Judaism spread throughout the world to convert people the way Islam did? They obviously don't want converts. They accepted your daughter's conversion because they want the kids to be raised Jewish and don't want to lose them. There's a lot of intermarriage and mainstream Jews accept that it's better to convert a spouse if it means retaining the kids. But they would prefer Jews marry other Jews and the state of Israel doesn't even recognize your daughter or her kids as Jewish. Believe me, your daughter won't ever be fully accepted as Jewish my many Jews.

So how is this not elitism?
No matter what you do or how much you love us, you are 2nd class

Do people really marry into stuff like that ?

People don't "marry into stuff like that." A person marries another person. People come with all sorts of extra stuff - it might be religion or crazy parents or any number of things. You marry a person and you get some of the stuff they come with, but the goal is to marry the person you love and figure out the rest.