Reasonable income for family of 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

But nurses only work 3 days, right? You have a lot of days off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We make $275k with 2 kids and do fine. We live in a small house in the city that's zoned for a good public elementary school. We drive Toyotas, not Teslas, and stay at an Airbnb or Holiday Inn instead of the Ritz on vacation. We do need to budget, especially for big ticket items like summer camp, vacations, and a fund for home repairs, but we don't generally worry about money.

I don't get this as we make much less and don't have to budget at all. We drive one $50K car, no issue.

PP here. How do you not budget at all? Right now, we're budgeting to remodel 2 bathrooms. I got quotes from contractors and came up with a plan so we can pay cash. I did the same thing when we bought our last car. I also do that every year to anticipate daycare and summer camp expenses. Did you just go out one day and buy your $50k car without saving or planning for it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TOTALLY depends on when/if you bought a house and student loans and number of children and where you live.

If you bought a house in 2012, have no student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work from home, you can live in Clarksburg or Manassas and have a nice life on $150K, maybe less. (And don't give me $#&^ about "bUt ThEn YoU HaVe To LiVe iN....." because that is rude and elitist.)

If you have yet to purchase a home, have student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work in downtown DC, you are going to want to make $300 to feel like you aren't treading water most months. Maybe more.

I think $300k is still very high... "reasonable" is subjective, though. I could reasonably stay at a Super 8 while others would scoff and say that's totally unreasonable. I don't have tons of money, but I prioritize what is important to me and I am never stressed about money.

- $250k, own townhouse close in, work downtown, full pay for private school (which is as much as two daycares), paid off loans, still have plenty for domestic travel and dining out

It is high but check this out:

In 2023, a 300K salary will take home 212K. That's 17K a month

Monthly:
$5-6,000 housing (including tax, insurance, repairs)
$1,500 student loans
$3,500 daycare
$2,000 on food and household items, including restaurants (this isn't a lot of takeout or restaurants)
$500 on car payment and insurance and any transit like Uber or Metro
$750 on utilities and tv etc...
Reasonably for two working professionals, $1,500 on miscellaneous (kids need shoes, new brakes for the car, Christmas tree, new shirt for party, vet visit, etc..)
-------
That leaves $2,500 - $3,500 for savings (which this family should be direct depositing), travel, miscellaneous, and BIG emergencies like a new roof or a new furnace or unexpected medical expenses.

It's a comfy middle class life but not without stress.

You can trade off by living far out or renting an apartment or choosing a less-than house or a less-than school district. But that's also not without stress.

Having a $3,000 mortgage or no childcare expenses or no students loans are all A HUGE GAME CHANGER.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

But nurses only work 3 days, right? You have a lot of days off.

Haha! What? Sign me up! I’ve been worked to the bone for almost 3 years now. Have you ever worked shift work? Any idea what it’s like forcing yosuekf to be nocturnal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

why do you need to supplement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

why do you need to supplement?

I’m going to assume you are new to the conversation but if you read the quoted messages, there would be a need to supplement if your kids are in a poorly performing school district where the teacher’s time is spent dealing with disruptive kids rather than teaching.

I’m sure the previous PP is doing an amazing job supplementing their kids at home, teaching them good values & responsibility, ensuring their immediate peer group is curated to have friends with a success minded outlook. But the reality is that most public schools are not a “reasonable” environment anymore. There was a thread posted a few days ago about a middle school girl in MCPS frightened to go to school due to violent, swearing, screaming students around her. It’s just not reasonable to force your kid into that situation, even if you help supplement at home and teach them good values at home. (Not blaming the parents in that thread, it’s clear they’re trying their best).
Ergo, a reasonable income for 4 needs to include a neighborhood with solid public schools, or budget for private. The latter is more expensive, so we have the former.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TOTALLY depends on when/if you bought a house and student loans and number of children and where you live.

If you bought a house in 2012, have no student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work from home, you can live in Clarksburg or Manassas and have a nice life on $150K, maybe less. (And don't give me $#&^ about "bUt ThEn YoU HaVe To LiVe iN....." because that is rude and elitist.)

If you have yet to purchase a home, have student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work in downtown DC, you are going to want to make $300 to feel like you aren't treading water most months. Maybe more.

I think $300k is still very high... "reasonable" is subjective, though. I could reasonably stay at a Super 8 while others would scoff and say that's totally unreasonable. I don't have tons of money, but I prioritize what is important to me and I am never stressed about money.

- $250k, own townhouse close in, work downtown, full pay for private school (which is as much as two daycares), paid off loans, still have plenty for domestic travel and dining out

It is high but check this out:

In 2023, a 300K salary will take home 212K. That's 17K a month

Monthly:
$5-6,000 housing (including tax, insurance, repairs)
$1,500 student loans
$3,500 daycare
$2,000 on food and household items, including restaurants (this isn't a lot of takeout or restaurants)
$500 on car payment and insurance and any transit like Uber or Metro
$750 on utilities and tv etc...
Reasonably for two working professionals, $1,500 on miscellaneous (kids need shoes, new brakes for the car, Christmas tree, new shirt for party, vet visit, etc..)
-------
That leaves $2,500 - $3,500 for savings (which this family should be direct depositing), travel, miscellaneous, and BIG emergencies like a new roof or a new furnace or unexpected medical expenses.

It's a comfy middle class life but not without stress.

You can trade off by living far out or renting an apartment or choosing a less-than house or a less-than school district. But that's also not without stress.

Having a $3,000 mortgage or no childcare expenses or no students loans are all A HUGE GAME CHANGER.

Again, the middle class is not spending $5-6k per month on a house. They’re just not. I totally get that housing prices have gotten out of control, but actual middle class cannot afford such a payment- they are continuing to rent, living in a smaller space, or moving to an area that someone in a $300k income would scoff at, either because of the commuting distance, schools, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TOTALLY depends on when/if you bought a house and student loans and number of children and where you live.

If you bought a house in 2012, have no student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work from home, you can live in Clarksburg or Manassas and have a nice life on $150K, maybe less. (And don't give me $#&^ about "bUt ThEn YoU HaVe To LiVe iN....." because that is rude and elitist.)

If you have yet to purchase a home, have student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work in downtown DC, you are going to want to make $300 to feel like you aren't treading water most months. Maybe more.

I think $300k is still very high... "reasonable" is subjective, though. I could reasonably stay at a Super 8 while others would scoff and say that's totally unreasonable. I don't have tons of money, but I prioritize what is important to me and I am never stressed about money.

- $250k, own townhouse close in, work downtown, full pay for private school (which is as much as two daycares), paid off loans, still have plenty for domestic travel and dining out

It is high but check this out:

In 2023, a 300K salary will take home 212K. That's 17K a month

Monthly:
$5-6,000 housing (including tax, insurance, repairs)
$1,500 student loans
$3,500 daycare
$2,000 on food and household items, including restaurants (this isn't a lot of takeout or restaurants)
$500 on car payment and insurance and any transit like Uber or Metro
$750 on utilities and tv etc...
Reasonably for two working professionals, $1,500 on miscellaneous (kids need shoes, new brakes for the car, Christmas tree, new shirt for party, vet visit, etc..)
-------
That leaves $2,500 - $3,500 for savings (which this family should be direct depositing), travel, miscellaneous, and BIG emergencies like a new roof or a new furnace or unexpected medical expenses.

It's a comfy middle class life but not without stress.

You can trade off by living far out or renting an apartment or choosing a less-than house or a less-than school district. But that's also not without stress.

Having a $3,000 mortgage or no childcare expenses or no students loans are all A HUGE GAME CHANGER.

A few things that jump out. A middle class person is not spending that on a mortgage. Also a middle class person is not YOLO their money, 300k gross , minus 40k in retirement savings, minus 11k in health insurance brings it to 15k/mo net.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

why do you need to supplement?

I don’t think you are following the conversation. Please review the material again and let me know if you have any questions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TOTALLY depends on when/if you bought a house and student loans and number of children and where you live.

If you bought a house in 2012, have no student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work from home, you can live in Clarksburg or Manassas and have a nice life on $150K, maybe less. (And don't give me $#&^ about "bUt ThEn YoU HaVe To LiVe iN....." because that is rude and elitist.)

If you have yet to purchase a home, have student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work in downtown DC, you are going to want to make $300 to feel like you aren't treading water most months. Maybe more.

I think $300k is still very high... "reasonable" is subjective, though. I could reasonably stay at a Super 8 while others would scoff and say that's totally unreasonable. I don't have tons of money, but I prioritize what is important to me and I am never stressed about money.

- $250k, own townhouse close in, work downtown, full pay for private school (which is as much as two daycares), paid off loans, still have plenty for domestic travel and dining out

agreed- this is not $17k a month gross.
It is high but check this out:

In 2023, a 300K salary will take home 212K. That's 17K a month

Monthly:
$5-6,000 housing (including tax, insurance, repairs)
$1,500 student loans
$3,500 daycare
$2,000 on food and household items, including restaurants (this isn't a lot of takeout or restaurants)
$500 on car payment and insurance and any transit like Uber or Metro
$750 on utilities and tv etc...
Reasonably for two working professionals, $1,500 on miscellaneous (kids need shoes, new brakes for the car, Christmas tree, new shirt for party, vet visit, etc..)
-------
That leaves $2,500 - $3,500 for savings (which this family should be direct depositing), travel, miscellaneous, and BIG emergencies like a new roof or a new furnace or unexpected medical expenses.

It's a comfy middle class life but not without stress.

You can trade off by living far out or renting an apartment or choosing a less-than house or a less-than school district. But that's also not without stress.

Having a $3,000 mortgage or no childcare expenses or no students loans are all A HUGE GAME CHANGER.

A few things that jump out. A middle class person is not spending that on a mortgage. Also a middle class person is not YOLO their money, 300k gross , minus 40k in retirement savings, minus 11k in health insurance brings it to 15k/mo net.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

why do you need to supplement?

I’m going to assume you are new to the conversation but if you read the quoted messages, there would be a need to supplement if your kids are in a poorly performing school district where the teacher’s time is spent dealing with disruptive kids rather than teaching.

I’m sure the previous PP is doing an amazing job supplementing their kids at home, teaching them good values & responsibility, ensuring their immediate peer group is curated to have friends with a success minded outlook. But the reality is that most public schools are not a “reasonable” environment anymore. There was a thread posted a few days ago about a middle school girl in MCPS frightened to go to school due to violent, swearing, screaming students around her. It’s just not reasonable to force your kid into that situation, even if you help supplement at home and teach them good values at home. (Not blaming the parents in that thread, it’s clear they’re trying their best).
Ergo, a reasonable income for 4 needs to include a neighborhood with solid public schools, or budget for private. The latter is more expensive, so we have the former.

Forcing your kid into a violent environment is not good, but "ensuring their immediate peer group is curated to have friends with a success minded outlook" is just not something I think most middle class people consider a necessity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TOTALLY depends on when/if you bought a house and student loans and number of children and where you live.

If you bought a house in 2012, have no student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work from home, you can live in Clarksburg or Manassas and have a nice life on $150K, maybe less. (And don't give me $#&^ about "bUt ThEn YoU HaVe To LiVe iN....." because that is rude and elitist.)

If you have yet to purchase a home, have student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work in downtown DC, you are going to want to make $300 to feel like you aren't treading water most months. Maybe more.

I think $300k is still very high... "reasonable" is subjective, though. I could reasonably stay at a Super 8 while others would scoff and say that's totally unreasonable. I don't have tons of money, but I prioritize what is important to me and I am never stressed about money.

- $250k, own townhouse close in, work downtown, full pay for private school (which is as much as two daycares), paid off loans, still have plenty for domestic travel and dining out

It is high but check this out:

In 2023, a 300K salary will take home 212K. That's 17K a month

Monthly:
$5-6,000 housing (including tax, insurance, repairs)
$1,500 student loans
$3,500 daycare
$2,000 on food and household items, including restaurants (this isn't a lot of takeout or restaurants)
$500 on car payment and insurance and any transit like Uber or Metro
$750 on utilities and tv etc...
Reasonably for two working professionals, $1,500 on miscellaneous (kids need shoes, new brakes for the car, Christmas tree, new shirt for party, vet visit, etc..)
-------
That leaves $2,500 - $3,500 for savings (which this family should be direct depositing), travel, miscellaneous, and BIG emergencies like a new roof or a new furnace or unexpected medical expenses.

It's a comfy middle class life but not without stress.

You can trade off by living far out or renting an apartment or choosing a less-than house or a less-than school district. But that's also not without stress.

Having a $3,000 mortgage or no childcare expenses or no students loans are all A HUGE GAME CHANGER.

A few things that jump out. A middle class person is not spending that on a mortgage. Also a middle class person is not YOLO their money, 300k gross , minus 40k in retirement savings, minus 11k in health insurance brings it to 15k/mo net.

You pay 30% in tax? That’s scandalous!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TOTALLY depends on when/if you bought a house and student loans and number of children and where you live.

If you bought a house in 2012, have no student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work from home, you can live in Clarksburg or Manassas and have a nice life on $150K, maybe less. (And don't give me $#&^ about "bUt ThEn YoU HaVe To LiVe iN....." because that is rude and elitist.)

If you have yet to purchase a home, have student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work in downtown DC, you are going to want to make $300 to feel like you aren't treading water most months. Maybe more.

I think $300k is still very high... "reasonable" is subjective, though. I could reasonably stay at a Super 8 while others would scoff and say that's totally unreasonable. I don't have tons of money, but I prioritize what is important to me and I am never stressed about money.

- $250k, own townhouse close in, work downtown, full pay for private school (which is as much as two daycares), paid off loans, still have plenty for domestic travel and dining out

agreed- this is not $17k a month gross.
It is high but check this out:

In 2023, a 300K salary will take home 212K. That's 17K a month

Monthly:
$5-6,000 housing (including tax, insurance, repairs)
$1,500 student loans
$3,500 daycare
$2,000 on food and household items, including restaurants (this isn't a lot of takeout or restaurants)
$500 on car payment and insurance and any transit like Uber or Metro
$750 on utilities and tv etc...
Reasonably for two working professionals, $1,500 on miscellaneous (kids need shoes, new brakes for the car, Christmas tree, new shirt for party, vet visit, etc..)
-------
That leaves $2,500 - $3,500 for savings (which this family should be direct depositing), travel, miscellaneous, and BIG emergencies like a new roof or a new furnace or unexpected medical expenses.

It's a comfy middle class life but not without stress.

You can trade off by living far out or renting an apartment or choosing a less-than house or a less-than school district. But that's also not without stress.

Having a $3,000 mortgage or no childcare expenses or no students loans are all A HUGE GAME CHANGER.

A few things that jump out. A middle class person is not spending that on a mortgage. Also a middle class person is not YOLO their money, 300k gross , minus 40k in retirement savings, minus 11k in health insurance brings it to 15k/mo net.

I don't know how the economists define "middle class," but one way to think about what it means to be "middle class" is to come up with a list of items that a "middle class" family can afford. That might include owning a home in a reasonably safe neighborhood with decent schools. If that costs $5-6k/month (I really don't know what the actual number is for this area), then that's part of what it costs to be "middle class." On this way of thinking, it is getting it backwards to say "middle class" families can't afford $5-6k for a mortgage. If that's what it costs and a family cannot afford it, then they are not "middle class." This is why you see articles about "the shrinking middle class," because fewer and fewer people can afford these things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TOTALLY depends on when/if you bought a house and student loans and number of children and where you live.

If you bought a house in 2012, have no student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work from home, you can live in Clarksburg or Manassas and have a nice life on $150K, maybe less. (And don't give me $#&^ about "bUt ThEn YoU HaVe To LiVe iN....." because that is rude and elitist.)

If you have yet to purchase a home, have student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work in downtown DC, you are going to want to make $300 to feel like you aren't treading water most months. Maybe more.

I think $300k is still very high... "reasonable" is subjective, though. I could reasonably stay at a Super 8 while others would scoff and say that's totally unreasonable. I don't have tons of money, but I prioritize what is important to me and I am never stressed about money.

- $250k, own townhouse close in, work downtown, full pay for private school (which is as much as two daycares), paid off loans, still have plenty for domestic travel and dining out

It is high but check this out:

In 2023, a 300K salary will take home 212K. That's 17K a month

Monthly:
$5-6,000 housing (including tax, insurance, repairs)
$1,500 student loans
$3,500 daycare
$2,000 on food and household items, including restaurants (this isn't a lot of takeout or restaurants)
$500 on car payment and insurance and any transit like Uber or Metro
$750 on utilities and tv etc...
Reasonably for two working professionals, $1,500 on miscellaneous (kids need shoes, new brakes for the car, Christmas tree, new shirt for party, vet visit, etc..)
-------
That leaves $2,500 - $3,500 for savings (which this family should be direct depositing), travel, miscellaneous, and BIG emergencies like a new roof or a new furnace or unexpected medical expenses.

It's a comfy middle class life but not without stress.

You can trade off by living far out or renting an apartment or choosing a less-than house or a less-than school district. But that's also not without stress.

Having a $3,000 mortgage or no childcare expenses or no students loans are all A HUGE GAME CHANGER.

A few things that jump out. A middle class person is not spending that on a mortgage. Also a middle class person is not YOLO their money, 300k gross , minus 40k in retirement savings, minus 11k in health insurance brings it to 15k/mo net.

You pay 30% in tax? That’s scandalous!

About 25% when it’s all said and done.