Isn't this unfair? Prisoners getting free bachelor's degrees from a private college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really OP? eyeroll.

Wouldn't you rather these convicts learn something useful while they are serving time - and perhaps give them a chance to be productive, self supporting individuals when they leave?

And for those that don't leave....how exactly is their degree behind bars of any consequence to your low/middle class kid.

Finally, I bet you you looked hard enough, you could find a school willing to help your child go to college. If your kid is a good student, find a school that has stats far below their own and get merit aid.

Prison is for punishment

It is also for rehabilitation. Up until the 1970s/80s, US prisons used to focus a lot more on rehabilitation, encouraging inmates to develop trade skills to help them find legal employment after their release. But then the "tough on crime movement" started that focused more on punishment, with the private prison movement (which does not want to spend a money on anything that is not strictly necessary) following shortly thereafter. Opportunities and resources for rehabilitation dropped dramatically and, not surprisingly, recidivism rates skyrocketed. If we want to reduce crime in this country, rehabilitation, including education and job training, need to be given a higher priority so that former inmates have viable options for legal employment and are not forced to return to crime to support themselves.

But Larla lives in a nice neighborhood with very little crime so what do they care about how these people fair after they get out of prison. That only affects poor people of color. Larla DESERVES the same amount of money for college.

In all seriousness, I think college should be free for all. I would make the entrance exams super hard so that the schools have to actually teach our kids something instead of just babysitting, but once they get in and prove they are capable, no cost to students.

I'd be thrilled with this assuming that it was limited to certain degrees. You want a degree in education, nursing, CS, engineering etc. and are smart? We'll pay for it. You want a degree in 17th century french poetry? Feel free to pay yourself.

No, those degrees have a use as well. If they are offered at a university, it's free. Just because you don't appreciate something and see no use for it, doesn't mean that there is no place for it in society.

They tried (are doing?) that in Denmark with predictable results: https://www.businessinsider.com/free-universities-and-no-student-loan-debt-is-hurting-denmarks-economy-2014-6

From the article: "Too many pursue "fulfilment" and too few the science and engineering degrees needed in well-paid growth sectors critical for the nation's future, they say. Typical is 23-year-old Ali Badreldin, who is enrolled at the Royal Danish Academy of Music to become a saxophone player. "Music was always part of my life growing up so it was a natural choice," he said."

Taxpayer funded degrees should be used to the best effect.

[Anonymous]

Everyone who is actually willing to study and do the work should be able to get a college degree.

College should be free but harder. You should need to write and defend a thesis to get a college degree (not as in depth as a doctoral thesis, but some kind of focused study in your major). If you can do that, you should get a degree and you should not have to pay for it.

It makes no sense -- you earn a degree by studying and learning and demonstrating your knowledge, not by writing a check.

Anyway, by these standards, I fully support these inmates getting degrees. They actually did the work, the deserve the accreditation. They went to college to learn something and get the degree, not because they were expected to or because they wanted "the college experience" or whatever. That's what college is for -- learning. They learned. They earned it.

Lots of college graduates in this country didn't earn anything. They just had access to enough capital to pay for 4 or more years of college and did the very bare minimum to earn passing grades. Lots of college grads in this country simply purchase degrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really OP? eyeroll.

Wouldn't you rather these convicts learn something useful while they are serving time - and perhaps give them a chance to be productive, self supporting individuals when they leave?

And for those that don't leave....how exactly is their degree behind bars of any consequence to your low/middle class kid.

Finally, I bet you you looked hard enough, you could find a school willing to help your child go to college. If your kid is a good student, find a school that has stats far below their own and get merit aid.

Prison is for punishment

It is also for rehabilitation. Up until the 1970s/80s, US prisons used to focus a lot more on rehabilitation, encouraging inmates to develop trade skills to help them find legal employment after their release. But then the "tough on crime movement" started that focused more on punishment, with the private prison movement (which does not want to spend a money on anything that is not strictly necessary) following shortly thereafter. Opportunities and resources for rehabilitation dropped dramatically and, not surprisingly, recidivism rates skyrocketed. If we want to reduce crime in this country, rehabilitation, including education and job training, need to be given a higher priority so that former inmates have viable options for legal employment and are not forced to return to crime to support themselves.

But Larla lives in a nice neighborhood with very little crime so what do they care about how these people fair after they get out of prison. That only affects poor people of color. Larla DESERVES the same amount of money for college.

In all seriousness, I think college should be free for all. I would make the entrance exams super hard so that the schools have to actually teach our kids something instead of just babysitting, but once they get in and prove they are capable, no cost to students.

I'd be thrilled with this assuming that it was limited to certain degrees. You want a degree in education, nursing, CS, engineering etc. and are smart? We'll pay for it. You want a degree in 17th century french poetry? Feel free to pay yourself.

I disagree, we need people who study art and literature and music too. But there are absolutely universities in other countries that simply limit how many students can pursue those areas of study and make the standards very high. So you could still do what you are saying, but include the humanities. The people who qualified to study humanities would need to prove they could master those subjects in a way that would contribute to society.

Also, some of the areas you mention are probably best handled in trade schools, which I think should also be free. My mom was an amazing nurse and she got an associates degree in nursing from a community college before becoming an RN. You don't need a four year degree to become a nurse and it's actually weird credentialism that requires it. There are also some CS and engineering jobs where an AS or trade school makes more sense. I know a guy who works as a draftsman for an engineering firm, with an AS, and he's good at his job and very skilled. He didn't need a four year degree. Same with a lot of CS that is lower level.

This idea that "hard sciences" are harder or more worthy of college is silly. College should be for deep intellectual study. For people who have genuine academic interest and want to do research. And yes, that includes people studying music or literature -- we need smart people expanding those fields.

Some people just want decent paying jobs in an interest area. Great! That's what community college and associates degrees should be for. Some people actually want to study and research and engage in an academic discipline. That's what college should be for. We've just confused these things and made college a prerequisite for literally any job (why) but then we tell people who genuinely want to study things that some have deemed insufficiently "useful" that this is pointless. It's just a total jumble of values.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone who is actually willing to study and do the work should be able to get a college degree.

College should be free but harder. You should need to write and defend a thesis to get a college degree (not as in depth as a doctoral thesis, but some kind of focused study in your major). If you can do that, you should get a degree and you should not have to pay for it.

It makes no sense -- you earn a degree by studying and learning and demonstrating your knowledge, not by writing a check.

Anyway, by these standards, I fully support these inmates getting degrees. They actually did the work, the deserve the accreditation. They went to college to learn something and get the degree, not because they were expected to or because they wanted "the college experience" or whatever. That's what college is for -- learning. They learned. They earned it.

Lots of college graduates in this country didn't earn anything. They just had access to enough capital to pay for 4 or more years of college and did the very bare minimum to earn passing grades. Lots of college grads in this country simply purchase degrees.

I don't know that an undergraduate level thesis is meaningful, since the goal of an undergraduate degree is rarely to prove your ability to do research. But I think it's reasonable to say you can or must "pay" for your college education by working hard and proving that you have learned the things you set out to learn for your degree.

And to those who think we should only allow this for certain majors, I would say we should allow this on a scale of post-grad jobs per major. If you want to study medieval poetry, you can apply for that major but only a few people per year are funded to study that so you'll have to be REALLY QUALIFIED and REALLY EXCITED about medieval poetry to get those spots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really OP? eyeroll.

Wouldn't you rather these convicts learn something useful while they are serving time - and perhaps give them a chance to be productive, self supporting individuals when they leave?

And for those that don't leave....how exactly is their degree behind bars of any consequence to your low/middle class kid.

Finally, I bet you you looked hard enough, you could find a school willing to help your child go to college. If your kid is a good student, find a school that has stats far below their own and get merit aid.

Prison is for punishment

It is also for rehabilitation. Up until the 1970s/80s, US prisons used to focus a lot more on rehabilitation, encouraging inmates to develop trade skills to help them find legal employment after their release. But then the "tough on crime movement" started that focused more on punishment, with the private prison movement (which does not want to spend a money on anything that is not strictly necessary) following shortly thereafter. Opportunities and resources for rehabilitation dropped dramatically and, not surprisingly, recidivism rates skyrocketed. If we want to reduce crime in this country, rehabilitation, including education and job training, need to be given a higher priority so that former inmates have viable options for legal employment and are not forced to return to crime to support themselves.

But Larla lives in a nice neighborhood with very little crime so what do they care about how these people fair after they get out of prison. That only affects poor people of color. Larla DESERVES the same amount of money for college.

In all seriousness, I think college should be free for all. I would make the entrance exams super hard so that the schools have to actually teach our kids something instead of just babysitting, but once they get in and prove they are capable, no cost to students.

I'd be thrilled with this assuming that it was limited to certain degrees. You want a degree in education, nursing, CS, engineering etc. and are smart? We'll pay for it. You want a degree in 17th century french poetry? Feel free to pay yourself.

I disagree, we need people who study art and literature and music too. But there are absolutely universities in other countries that simply limit how many students can pursue those areas of study and make the standards very high. So you could still do what you are saying, but include the humanities. The people who qualified to study humanities would need to prove they could master those subjects in a way that would contribute to society.

Also, some of the areas you mention are probably best handled in trade schools, which I think should also be free. My mom was an amazing nurse and she got an associates degree in nursing from a community college before becoming an RN. You don't need a four year degree to become a nurse and it's actually weird credentialism that requires it. There are also some CS and engineering jobs where an AS or trade school makes more sense. I know a guy who works as a draftsman for an engineering firm, with an AS, and he's good at his job and very skilled. He didn't need a four year degree. Same with a lot of CS that is lower level.

This idea that "hard sciences" are harder or more worthy of college is silly. College should be for deep intellectual study. For people who have genuine academic interest and want to do research. And yes, that includes people studying music or literature -- we need smart people expanding those fields.

Some people just want decent paying jobs in an interest area. Great! That's what community college and associates degrees should be for. Some people actually want to study and research and engage in an academic discipline. That's what college should be for. We've just confused these things and made college a prerequisite for literally any job (why) but then we tell people who genuinely want to study things that some have deemed insufficiently "useful" that this is pointless. It's just a total jumble of values.

PP, I wish you were making our educational policy decisions, just saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone who is actually willing to study and do the work should be able to get a college degree.

College should be free but harder. You should need to write and defend a thesis to get a college degree (not as in depth as a doctoral thesis, but some kind of focused study in your major). If you can do that, you should get a degree and you should not have to pay for it.

It makes no sense -- you earn a degree by studying and learning and demonstrating your knowledge, not by writing a check.

Anyway, by these standards, I fully support these inmates getting degrees. They actually did the work, the deserve the accreditation. They went to college to learn something and get the degree, not because they were expected to or because they wanted "the college experience" or whatever. That's what college is for -- learning. They learned. They earned it.

Lots of college graduates in this country didn't earn anything. They just had access to enough capital to pay for 4 or more years of college and did the very bare minimum to earn passing grades. Lots of college grads in this country simply purchase degrees.

I don't know that an undergraduate level thesis is meaningful, since the goal of an undergraduate degree is rarely to prove your ability to do research. But I think it's reasonable to say you can or must "pay" for your college education by working hard and proving that you have learned the things you set out to learn for your degree.

And to those who think we should only allow this for certain majors, I would say we should allow this on a scale of post-grad jobs per major. If you want to study medieval poetry, you can apply for that major but only a few people per year are funded to study that so you'll have to be REALLY QUALIFIED and REALLY EXCITED about medieval poetry to get those spots.

I bristle at the idea that arts majors aren't important but I really like that last line. We absolutely need people who are experts in medieval poetry but we don't need kids just sort of thoughtlessly going into it because they had a memorable class about Hildegard of Bingen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To help your reading probably helpful to decode:
Middle class students = White kids
Convicted criminals = Black people

It actually would have cut this thread in half.

Only your race-baiting butt thinks this. The photo used by the university features mostly white convicts.

Clearly PP attended the Aryan Nation school of calling any recognition of blindingly obvious racism “race baiting.” You’d think they’d realize how they are telling on themselves

PP, we get it —- you disagree with anyone ever talking about or acknowledging racism. Noted.

[Anonymous]

This is the way it’s always been for middle class families…

[Anonymous]

Donut hole families are screwed six days from Sunday. Poor get mean-based aid, rich have the cash, convicted felons get free scholarships... and donut hole families get crushing debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Donut hole families are screwed six days from Sunday. Poor get mean-based aid, rich have the cash, convicted felons get free scholarships... and donut hole families get crushing debt.

If you get "crushing debt," you have made a poor choice of college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Donut hole families are screwed six days from Sunday. Poor get mean-based aid, rich have the cash, convicted felons get free scholarships... and donut hole families get crushing debt.

Make more money.

[Anonymous]

Learn more about the college ~ Calvin College
I bet Op isn't educated enough to understand it's origin

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really OP? eyeroll.

Wouldn't you rather these convicts learn something useful while they are serving time - and perhaps give them a chance to be productive, self supporting individuals when they leave?

And for those that don't leave....how exactly is their degree behind bars of any consequence to your low/middle class kid.

Finally, I bet you you looked hard enough, you could find a school willing to help your child go to college. If your kid is a good student, find a school that has stats far below their own and get merit aid.

Prison is for punishment

Prison is also for rehabilitation and having better citizens after completing the sentence.

[Anonymous]

All I can say is holy F! To the OP with the heading of the thread. In DCUM forum, whenever the topic of legacy preferences for admission to IVY league colleges comes up, many “supposedly righteously outraged” parents say, “they are private colleges and so they can do whatever they please”. That is why, the expression “holy F” to the heading of the thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calvin University is a private college in western Michigan. Tuition and fees are $38,370, so even if the prisoners get full $6,895 year pell grant, that's a lot of free scholarships or however it's provided.

In other words, convicted criminals get free college and rich kids get free college from their parents, of course, while low and middle class kid are soaked with an average of $30,000 in student loans for a state university degree (it's about $35,000 for a private bachelor's). This seems extremely unfair, yet the media champions it.

Detroit Free Press: Caps, gowns and barbed wire: First-ever college graduation in prison was joyous celebration
https://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2022/05/09/prison-graduation-handlon-correctional-facility/9708357002/

It's a privately funded program apart from the Pell Grants (which cover 60% of the costs). Pell Grants are equally available to qualified people outside prison, and private individuals are free to donate to a charity that they like. Calvin also is pretty generous with aid, from what I understand.

I graduated with about that amount of debt, and no, I don't think it's "unfair." They're a religious college, and to me, as a Christian this is following the Gospel. Visiting the prisoner is a direct instruction of Christ after all, and visiting the prisoner and bringing him education that will hopefully help him to stay free when released? That's a good work. Not unfair.

Yes, this is what I was thinking too. This is part of their ministry, essentially putting the book of James in action.

But, even if it weren't their Christian mission, I'd be for it. Many are in prison as a result of growing up in an environment not conducive to education and growth. If we want rehabilitation rather than just time for criminals, education is crucial. Many will give back. There is an excellent PBS doc on a program in NY run by Bard. Watch that and then try to say it isn't fair to us. It wasn't fair to them. This (getting an education) is a good thing.

https://www.pbs.org/show/college-behind-bars/