Washington Post Article On Freshmen Admitted Under New Admissions Process

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:25% low income? Oof, this is going to shift the schools budget from academics to social and welfare needs, you want to avoid schools with farms in the double digits.

So the kids who have the interest and the aptitude to attend TJ but lack the external supports from their schools and parents should be regulated to attending high schools with over 25% FARMs students because you are worried about having them at TJ? Do you even read what you are posting?

The kids in the article all commented that the test was a barrier but as soon it was gone they thought that they would apply. They are enjoying their experience at TJ, especially the STEM type classes, and are happy to be there.

Regardless of how kids are admitted to TJ, capable people are excluded. There were kids with high test scores that were not accepted at TJ when the test existed. There are not enough seats for all of the kids who are interested and qualified.

I have no idea what budget you think has to be shifted for the higher percentage of FARMs kids. There are more kids who will get free or reduced price meals. They all qualified based on meeting the pre reqs that TJ set out for applying so it is not like they need different classes.

It is kind of gross that your concern is that the school now needs to change how it meets the social and welfare needs of its students because they have increased the number of qualified kids who come from impoverished backgrounds.

It will go downhill, the kids don't have the means to do after school tutoring support etc that prior tj students do. The school is going to have a mess on their hands when test scores come out

Are you saying that the reason why most kids at TJ are successful is because they are paying for additional tutoring? That is a problem. The classes shouldn’t be so hard that tutoring is common place. Just like the test shouldn’t be set so that kids who take specific prep classes have an advantage. The classes and admittance requirements should be developed so that kids can succeed with the materials provided at the school.

If the kids who have had success at TJ have had success because they are paying for tutoring, then maybe those kids didn’t belong at TJ.

Newsflash all the parents of good schools do this

I used tutors when I was struggling with my LDs in ES. I didn’t use tutors in HS or college or grad school. I managed to earn my PhD without tutors. I guess I did it or wrong or I was capable of excelling without tutors.

Tutors are fine, they help a kid who is struggling to understand the material. But they should not be something required to do well in school. I would expect that the students at TJ are able to excel with limited help from tutors. Just like I think they should be able to do well on the Quant test without prepping. I am less impressed to hear that kids need tutoring to do well at TJ.

Sure torturing isn’t “required”, but extra help is always great, even for high performing kids who want more help. Who are you to say when tutoring is appropriate? My oldest kid is in a PhD program—who cares if you never asked for help in yours. Asking for help isn’t a weakness, it’s a strength.

GTFOH

I ask for help. We all participated in peer review of each others work, we studied together, we had weekly presentations where we critiqued each others work. I went to office hours when I needed help with stats or some other subject. All perfectly normal and very useful. Also very different then hiring someone to work through your assignments with you. I don't know of any one of my peers who hired a tutor in grad school and it was a top program.

There is nothing wrong with tutoring, it is incredibly helpful. But to claim that students who are attending a school for "the gifted" shouldn't be there because they can't pay for tutors is silly. I would expect that students at TJ are able to study together and visit Teachers for office hours. I would hope that the students that are attending a school and taking the advanced courses are capable of doing the work with help from peers and their Teachers, while helping others in their stronger areas, and not needing to hire tutors to get them through classes. Or pretake the classes in the summer.

But don't claim that kids from higher SES schools are more deserving of acceptance because they can pay for tutoring while FARMs kids are going to be an issue because they cannot pay for tutoring. All that tells me is that you see TJ as a school only for those who can pay for classes to prepare for tests, or take a class in the summer, or hire a tutor to succeed and not as a school for the gifted or advanced. A gifted or advanced kid would not likely need tutoring or prep or pretaking classes to keep up. They might need to ask for help but they don't need a hand up to appear brilliant.

Huh? I think you’re responding to the wrong person. The person who claims tutoring is bad and not respectable is a moron.

Get help when you need it. In every case. From elementary to med school. That’s it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I loved this article

To the parents who are frustrated at the number of mods who could handle TJ work but were turned away, wouldn’t it make more sense to lobby for creating another high school that has this level of challenge so all the capable kids can get the best possible public school education rather than figuring out who to deny this to? I’d love to see more schools raise their expectations so kids can get as far as they can go.

Yeah sure but we can’t even get a renovation for Mclean HS. A new HS will do nothing to help the very capable students who were rejected this year.

If they are capable of being successful at TJ, they will be successful wherever they go.

Agree. If these kids are gifted (which most of them are not, just prepped), they will succeed anywhere. If they are truly intellectually curious, they will find the opportunities. I have a kid like that, who did not go to TJ (we were not in FCPS then) but found plenty of intellectual opportunities on her own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I loved this article

To the parents who are frustrated at the number of mods who could handle TJ work but were turned away, wouldn’t it make more sense to lobby for creating another high school that has this level of challenge so all the capable kids can get the best possible public school education rather than figuring out who to deny this to? I’d love to see more schools raise their expectations so kids can get as far as they can go.

Yeah sure but we can’t even get a renovation for Mclean HS. A new HS will do nothing to help the very capable students who were rejected this year.

If they are capable of being successful at TJ, they will be successful wherever they go.

Agree. If these kids are gifted (which most of them are not, just prepped), they will succeed anywhere. If they are truly intellectually curious, they will find the opportunities. I have a kid like that, who did not go to TJ (we were not in FCPS then) but found plenty of intellectual opportunities on her own.

It’s still unfair to these capable kids if they are willing to go to TJ but couldn’t make it just because of the stupid politics. Don’t repeat the prep lie again and again. Those kids were able to do well without doing the prep test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I loved this article

To the parents who are frustrated at the number of mods who could handle TJ work but were turned away, wouldn’t it make more sense to lobby for creating another high school that has this level of challenge so all the capable kids can get the best possible public school education rather than figuring out who to deny this to? I’d love to see more schools raise their expectations so kids can get as far as they can go.

Yeah sure but we can’t even get a renovation for Mclean HS. A new HS will do nothing to help the very capable students who were rejected this year.

If they are capable of being successful at TJ, they will be successful wherever they go.

Agree. If these kids are gifted (which most of them are not, just prepped), they will succeed anywhere. If they are truly intellectually curious, they will find the opportunities. I have a kid like that, who did not go to TJ (we were not in FCPS then) but found plenty of intellectual opportunities on her own.

It’s still unfair to these capable kids if they are willing to go to TJ but couldn’t make it just because of the stupid politics. Don’t repeat the prep lie again and again. Those kids were able to do well without doing the prep test.

I am sure there are super bright kids who would have done well without prep that did not get accepted. It absolutely sounds like they need to bring back teacher recommendations for helping select the within school pool. But people keep raising the test prep issue because it is what broke the system. It was a real problem and could not keep going on. Should they tweak the new system a bit more to iron out the kinks further? Yes. Should they revert to something the test prep companies can easily master and goggle up 30% of the TJ kids again? No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Congrats to these kids. There are always good kids who don't make it. Question was never about minorities in the school. It was about purging one minority for the other to assuage guilt for the majority while also helping the majority. There were better ways of doing it without cruelly targeting just one group, with intent. which is why the court said the new process was not legal.

Good is not the best. It's a magnet school not a diversity inclusive job

[Anonymous]

Keep the seat allotment based on MS, add in Teacher recommendations, and require Geometry as well as Algebra. Or, instead of Teacher recommendations, the MS Teachers answer a survey about each child who has meet the eligibility requirements and has applied. Maybe something less formal then then the GBRSs process for AAP but something that is less time consuming for the Teacher, so they can evaluate more kids, and less prone to bias.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Keep the seat allotment based on MS, add in Teacher recommendations, and require Geometry as well as Algebra. Or, instead of Teacher recommendations, the MS Teachers answer a survey about each child who has meet the eligibility requirements and has applied. Maybe something less formal then then the GBRSs process for AAP but something that is less time consuming for the Teacher, so they can evaluate more kids, and less prone to bias.

Support this. I do think the MS allotment is a useful tool. I would waive the Geometry requirement if there are not enough kids that have taken that at the MS to meet the 1.5%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Keep the seat allotment based on MS, add in Teacher recommendations, and require Geometry as well as Algebra. Or, instead of Teacher recommendations, the MS Teachers answer a survey about each child who has meet the eligibility requirements and has applied. Maybe something less formal then then the GBRSs process for AAP but something that is less time consuming for the Teacher, so they can evaluate more kids, and less prone to bias.

Support this. I do think the MS allotment is a useful tool. I would waive the Geometry requirement if there are not enough kids that have taken that at the MS to meet the 1.5%

Teacher recs seem unreliable and have been shown to be biased so I'm not clear this is a great thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I loved this article

To the parents who are frustrated at the number of mods who could handle TJ work but were turned away, wouldn’t it make more sense to lobby for creating another high school that has this level of challenge so all the capable kids can get the best possible public school education rather than figuring out who to deny this to? I’d love to see more schools raise their expectations so kids can get as far as they can go.

Yeah sure but we can’t even get a renovation for Mclean HS. A new HS will do nothing to help the very capable students who were rejected this year.

If they are capable of being successful at TJ, they will be successful wherever they go.

Agree. If these kids are gifted (which most of them are not, just prepped), they will succeed anywhere. If they are truly intellectually curious, they will find the opportunities. I have a kid like that, who did not go to TJ (we were not in FCPS then) but found plenty of intellectual opportunities on her own.

It’s still unfair to these capable kids if they are willing to go to TJ but couldn’t make it just because of the stupid politics. Don’t repeat the prep lie again and again. Those kids were able to do well without doing the prep test.

I am sure there are super bright kids who would have done well without prep that did not get accepted. It absolutely sounds like they need to bring back teacher recommendations for helping select the within school pool. But people keep raising the test prep issue because it is what broke the system. It was a real problem and could not keep going on. Should they tweak the new system a bit more to iron out the kinks further? Yes. Should they revert to something the test prep companies can easily master and goggle up 30% of the TJ kids again? No.

That wouldn't really solve the problem. Teachers are notoriously biased, but yes I think they need to continue to refine the process by looking at what's working and what isn't.

[Anonymous]

Teacher recommendations hurt shy introverted kids. I was one of those, would get As in all the tests and homework but rarely contributed to in class discussions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Teacher recommendations hurt shy introverted kids. I was one of those, would get As in all the tests and homework but rarely contributed to in class discussions.

Teacher recs also depend upon the teacher - some of them know what to write and how but most didn't. That was another reason that the big MS feeders were feeder schools - the teachers knew how to write good recs.

It was a good move to get rid of them, IMO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:25% low income? Oof, this is going to shift the schools budget from academics to social and welfare needs, you want to avoid schools with farms in the double digits.

So the kids who have the interest and the aptitude to attend TJ but lack the external supports from their schools and parents should be regulated to attending high schools with over 25% FARMs students because you are worried about having them at TJ? Do you even read what you are posting?

The kids in the article all commented that the test was a barrier but as soon it was gone they thought that they would apply. They are enjoying their experience at TJ, especially the STEM type classes, and are happy to be there.

Regardless of how kids are admitted to TJ, capable people are excluded. There were kids with high test scores that were not accepted at TJ when the test existed. There are not enough seats for all of the kids who are interested and qualified.

I have no idea what budget you think has to be shifted for the higher percentage of FARMs kids. There are more kids who will get free or reduced price meals. They all qualified based on meeting the pre reqs that TJ set out for applying so it is not like they need different classes.

It is kind of gross that your concern is that the school now needs to change how it meets the social and welfare needs of its students because they have increased the number of qualified kids who come from impoverished backgrounds.

It will go downhill, the kids don't have the means to do after school tutoring support etc that prior tj students do. The school is going to have a mess on their hands when test scores come out

Are you saying that the reason why most kids at TJ are successful is because they are paying for additional tutoring? That is a problem. The classes shouldn’t be so hard that tutoring is common place. Just like the test shouldn’t be set so that kids who take specific prep classes have an advantage. The classes and admittance requirements should be developed so that kids can succeed with the materials provided at the school.

If the kids who have had success at TJ have had success because they are paying for tutoring, then maybe those kids didn’t belong at TJ.

Newsflash all the parents of good schools do this

I used tutors when I was struggling with my LDs in ES. I didn’t use tutors in HS or college or grad school. I managed to earn my PhD without tutors. I guess I did it or wrong or I was capable of excelling without tutors.

Tutors are fine, they help a kid who is struggling to understand the material. But they should not be something required to do well in school. I would expect that the students at TJ are able to excel with limited help from tutors. Just like I think they should be able to do well on the Quant test without prepping. I am less impressed to hear that kids need tutoring to do well at TJ.

Sure torturing isn’t “required”, but extra help is always great, even for high performing kids who want more help. Who are you to say when tutoring is appropriate? My oldest kid is in a PhD program—who cares if you never asked for help in yours. Asking for help isn’t a weakness, it’s a strength.

GTFOH

I ask for help. We all participated in peer review of each others work, we studied together, we had weekly presentations where we critiqued each others work. I went to office hours when I needed help with stats or some other subject. All perfectly normal and very useful. Also very different then hiring someone to work through your assignments with you. I don't know of any one of my peers who hired a tutor in grad school and it was a top program.

There is nothing wrong with tutoring, it is incredibly helpful. But to claim that students who are attending a school for "the gifted" shouldn't be there because they can't pay for tutors is silly. I would expect that students at TJ are able to study together and visit Teachers for office hours. I would hope that the students that are attending a school and taking the advanced courses are capable of doing the work with help from peers and their Teachers, while helping others in their stronger areas, and not needing to hire tutors to get them through classes. Or pretake the classes in the summer.

But don't claim that kids from higher SES schools are more deserving of acceptance because they can pay for tutoring while FARMs kids are going to be an issue because they cannot pay for tutoring. All that tells me is that you see TJ as a school only for those who can pay for classes to prepare for tests, or take a class in the summer, or hire a tutor to succeed and not as a school for the gifted or advanced. A gifted or advanced kid would not likely need tutoring or prep or pretaking classes to keep up. They might need to ask for help but they don't need a hand up to appear brilliant.

It seems like the kids who only got in because they were enabled by extreme prep often struggled. Instead of being able to do their assignments in 2 hours a night they worked 6-8 and never slept. This is also a problem and seems unfair to these kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Congrats to these kids. There are always good kids who don't make it. Question was never about minorities in the school. It was about purging one minority for the other to assuage guilt for the majority while also helping the majority. There were better ways of doing it without cruelly targeting just one group, with intent. which is why the court said the new process was not legal.

Good is not the best. It's a magnet school not a diversity inclusive job

Under the SB’s new “scoring rubric” (which they kept confidential/ hidden from parents),

-1/4 of TJ admissions is based on actual math talent. 1/4 is based on GPA and 50% of the application is based on non academic criteria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Congrats to these kids. There are always good kids who don't make it. Question was never about minorities in the school. It was about purging one minority for the other to assuage guilt for the majority while also helping the majority. There were better ways of doing it without cruelly targeting just one group, with intent. which is why the court said the new process was not legal.

Good is not the best. It's a magnet school not a diversity inclusive job

Under the SB’s new “scoring rubric” (which they kept confidential/ hidden from parents),

-1/4 of TJ admissions is based on actual math talent. 1/4 is based on GPA and 50% of the application is based on non academic criteria.

GPA doesn't count towards math talent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Congrats to these kids. There are always good kids who don't make it. Question was never about minorities in the school. It was about purging one minority for the other to assuage guilt for the majority while also helping the majority. There were better ways of doing it without cruelly targeting just one group, with intent. which is why the court said the new process was not legal.

Good is not the best. It's a magnet school not a diversity inclusive job

Under the SB’s new “scoring rubric” (which they kept confidential/ hidden from parents),

-1/4 of TJ admissions is based on actual math talent. 1/4 is based on GPA and 50% of the application is based on non academic criteria.

Nothing is based on actual math talent. The problem solving essay was a pretty trivial science explanation that had nothing whatsoever to do with math. No bonus points are given for being in higher level math classes or excelling at high level math contests. If you ignore experience factors, the points awarded for GPA range from 262.5 - 300. So, a kid with a 4.0 only earns 37.5 more points than a kid with a 3.5. Each of the two essays spans from 60-300 points, meaning that a kid with a perfect essay would earn 240 points more than a kid with a very poor one. If you look at effective score range, GPA is only worth 37.5/517.5 = 7.25% of the total points. The essays are worth 92.75% of the score range.

The 90 points for being ED are worth 2.4 times the value for having a 4.0 vs. a 3.5.