Anonymous wrote:So there's still not a single shred of evidence of a cheating scandal or people buying the test. No one is able to post a single news article or any real proof. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.
Don’t be obtuse. No one was literally paying money and getting the test in return. They were paying for $$$$ prep that (unethically) provided access to previous/example test questions on a test that shouldn’t be prepped for. It was shady AF as many people, including former students who did the prep, have noted.
You keep moving the goalposts and arguing against a strawman. It was put forth that there was a huge cheating scandal, people were buying the test, and it was all over the news. It was also put forth that the "cheating scandal" was the main reason for the TJ admissions change. Seriously, pony up some actual evidence of this, or stop yapping. The only evidence that was provided is that people were concerned that test prep was skewing the results, and that affluent kids had an advantage. There's also a bit of hearsay that some questions on the Quant Q were the same as some practiced at Curie. I still haven't seen any evidence of a "cheating scandal," "kids (literally) buying the test," and this being "all over the news."
FWIW, Amazon sells Quant Q practice books.
There's evidence provided in this thread.Numerous first-hand accounts and multiple news sources. Not sure why you keep ignoring it.
Because the accounts and news sources show nothing of the "cheating" and "test buying" as the lie you keep on spreading.
DP.
We do know that affluent families were paying for $$$$ prep that (unethically) acquired and provided access to previous/example test questions on a test that shouldn’t be prepped for. It was shady AF as many people, including former students who did the prep, have noted.
And, we do know that FCPS wanted a way to fairly assess kids across the county without fueling a $$$$ test prep industry, giving affluent families a huge, unfair advantage.
The admissions process keeps changing because parents keep trying to game the system.
This claim is completely BS, Donald!
Places like Kaplan, Princeton, College Board, Barron's, etc. have released sample and past exam questions for decades. TJ never has prohibited students from talking about exam questions from their memory. Also, most affluent families in Fairfax are not Asian. If money can make the difference, there should be way more white students admitted in the old system than in the new system.
The biggest beneficiaries of the new admissions process are students from low-income Asian families.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
Please stop posting articles that do nothing to prove your points.
My points were:
1. non-affluent Asian students benefitted from the change
2. Quant-Q, intentionally did NOT release materials to the public - very different than SAT, ACT, etc.
3. for years, they have been looking for ways to avoid some kids having an unfair advance with test-prep
Either Quant-Q or you were lying. A 5-second search on Amazon gave me more than 15 books with Quant-Q questions. You don't have to be affluent to spend 10-20 bucks on a book. There is no evidence that low-income Asian students need/benefit from the change.
None of those were based on materials provided by the Quant-Q creator, Insight Assessment. And, based on the NDAs, all of those books are likely unethically, or even potentially illegally, developed.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ "Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s)."
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
Ok. Do you have any evidence that test prep centers used the materials from Quant-Q? or do we have to take your words that somehow students stole the questions for them?
TJ students admitted it.
So, TJ students came to you and admitted it. Also, even if it was a real problem, FCPS could easily solve it by incorporating rules prohibiting students from discussing exam information or materials. This is a common practice used by organizations administering exams across different time zones. FCPS has done that because it's not a real problem.
No, several students shared online. Which you would know if you actually did go back and read all of the old threads.
The students agreed not to share test content/format before they took the test. How would have more rules helped?
Some parents will always look for ways to cheat the system.
This is your evidence and you want people to take you seriously. Even if it's the case, FCPS should enforce their rules the same way as they are doing with their code of ethics and conduct. They can even sue those test prep centers for using infringed materials. It's obvious to me that this was not a widespread problem as you claim.
In the off chance that you’re not just being oppositional and you really do want to learn more, get back to us after you go back and re-read the many threads.
Then maybe you won’t sound so ignorant.
But the threads don’t point to anything. It’s just anonymous posts. No links to the coveted Facebook posts, no articles about cheating on the admissions test, no links about a scandal.
It’s entirely circular.
DP. Goodness, this is exhausting.
It's not a cheating scandal, and the people who are referring to it as such are doing no favors at all to the point.
What we know beyond a shadow of a doubt is that TJ students in the Classes of 2023 and 2024, when they applied to TJ, saw word-for-word longform questions on the Quant-Q that they had seen previously through their classes at Curie. They've confirmed this on a Facebook post on a page called TJ Vents, and you can find those posts by going to that page (it is public) and searching for the word "Curie". You'll find a few references to the Curie Commons at the school, but once you get to July and August of 2020 you will find the posts in question. The initial allegation was made by an anonymous TJ student, but it was confirmed in the comments by TJ students who were on the infamous Curie lists.
These students had nothing to gain and a lot reputationally to lose by openly admitting to this, and as such there's not really a good reason to doubt it. The only question to then ask is "How did Curie get access to these word-for-word questions, and why did they only have access to them beginning with the Classes of 2023 and 2024 when the Class of 2022 also took the exam?"
It is a matter of speculation that they debriefed their Class of 2022 TJ applicants in order to get that information, but it's also by far the simplest answer. And because the kids who would have provided this information would have been 13 or 14 years old at the time, and because all they would have done was violate an NDA as a minor, it's not something that would have triggered some huge investigation or news stories.
But people on here are butthurt because Curie killed their golden goose and they're in denial, so they're looking for "proof" that is unnecessary and will never come.
This makes some sense but the part that doesn't make sense is that a testing organization is using the same questions year after year. Why didn't quant Q use different questions in subsequent administrations of the test after 2022? It seems like such low hanging fruit.
And clearly this is not why they changed the admissions process. I think we can agree that was driven by concerns over the lack of under-represented minorities at TJ.
Anonymous wrote:So there's still not a single shred of evidence of a cheating scandal or people buying the test. No one is able to post a single news article or any real proof. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.
Don’t be obtuse. No one was literally paying money and getting the test in return. They were paying for $$$$ prep that (unethically) provided access to previous/example test questions on a test that shouldn’t be prepped for. It was shady AF as many people, including former students who did the prep, have noted.
You keep moving the goalposts and arguing against a strawman. It was put forth that there was a huge cheating scandal, people were buying the test, and it was all over the news. It was also put forth that the "cheating scandal" was the main reason for the TJ admissions change. Seriously, pony up some actual evidence of this, or stop yapping. The only evidence that was provided is that people were concerned that test prep was skewing the results, and that affluent kids had an advantage. There's also a bit of hearsay that some questions on the Quant Q were the same as some practiced at Curie. I still haven't seen any evidence of a "cheating scandal," "kids (literally) buying the test," and this being "all over the news."
FWIW, Amazon sells Quant Q practice books.
There's evidence provided in this thread.Numerous first-hand accounts and multiple news sources. Not sure why you keep ignoring it.
Because the accounts and news sources show nothing of the "cheating" and "test buying" as the lie you keep on spreading.
DP.
We do know that affluent families were paying for $$$$ prep that (unethically) acquired and provided access to previous/example test questions on a test that shouldn’t be prepped for. It was shady AF as many people, including former students who did the prep, have noted.
And, we do know that FCPS wanted a way to fairly assess kids across the county without fueling a $$$$ test prep industry, giving affluent families a huge, unfair advantage.
The admissions process keeps changing because parents keep trying to game the system.
This claim is completely BS, Donald!
Places like Kaplan, Princeton, College Board, Barron's, etc. have released sample and past exam questions for decades. TJ never has prohibited students from talking about exam questions from their memory. Also, most affluent families in Fairfax are not Asian. If money can make the difference, there should be way more white students admitted in the old system than in the new system.
The biggest beneficiaries of the new admissions process are students from low-income Asian families.
Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”
Please stop posting articles that do nothing to prove your points.
My points were:
1. non-affluent Asian students benefitted from the change
2. Quant-Q, intentionally did NOT release materials to the public - very different than SAT, ACT, etc.
3. for years, they have been looking for ways to avoid some kids having an unfair advance with test-prep
Either Quant-Q or you were lying. A 5-second search on Amazon gave me more than 15 books with Quant-Q questions. You don't have to be affluent to spend 10-20 bucks on a book. There is no evidence that low-income Asian students need/benefit from the change.
None of those were based on materials provided by the Quant-Q creator, Insight Assessment. And, based on the NDAs, all of those books are likely unethically, or even potentially illegally, developed.
https://insightassessment.com/policies/ "Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete Agreement
By accessing the Insight Assessment online testing interface or purchasing a preview pack or instrument use licenses, all clients acknowledge that the on-line interface and the testing instrument(s) it contains or displays include proprietary business information, such as but not limited to the structure of test questions or the presentation of those questions and other information displayed in conjunction with the use of this testing interface. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by purchasing a preview pack or testing licenses, the client and their organization, shall not disclose, copy, or replicate this testing interface or this testing instrument(s) in whole or in part in comparable or competitive product or interface of any kind. In the absence of a specific written agreement between the client and Insight Assessment, the client agrees that by accessing the testing instrument(s) for any purpose, including but not limited to previewing the instrument(s), the client and the client’s organization shall not create, design, develop, publish, market, or distribute any comparable or competitive testing instrument(s)."
"Remember that the goal of a critical thinking assessment is to measure your natural ability to think critically, so there’s no need for extensive preparation. Just be yourself and approach the assessment with a clear mind."
Ok. Do you have any evidence that test prep centers used the materials from Quant-Q? or do we have to take your words that somehow students stole the questions for them?
TJ students admitted it.
So, TJ students came to you and admitted it. Also, even if it was a real problem, FCPS could easily solve it by incorporating rules prohibiting students from discussing exam information or materials. This is a common practice used by organizations administering exams across different time zones. FCPS has done that because it's not a real problem.
No, several students shared online. Which you would know if you actually did go back and read all of the old threads.
The students agreed not to share test content/format before they took the test. How would have more rules helped?
Some parents will always look for ways to cheat the system.
This is your evidence and you want people to take you seriously. Even if it's the case, FCPS should enforce their rules the same way as they are doing with their code of ethics and conduct. They can even sue those test prep centers for using infringed materials. It's obvious to me that this was not a widespread problem as you claim.
In the off chance that you’re not just being oppositional and you really do want to learn more, get back to us after you go back and re-read the many threads.
Then maybe you won’t sound so ignorant.
But the threads don’t point to anything. It’s just anonymous posts. No links to the coveted Facebook posts, no articles about cheating on the admissions test, no links about a scandal.
It’s entirely circular.
There were definitely links to the FB posts. You’re clearly not reading the threads.
You remind me of the open school crazies who didn’t even have kids in school at the time but were very loud and very clueless.
So post them here. The links. Right here.
So won’t read the many threads of this old, beat-to-death topic AND you want others to dig up links for you?
I just googled and found some links in the first couple of results.
If your kid is as lazy as you are TJ doesn’t seem likely.
So, you supposedly found some links proving what you said, but you refuse to post them? Sounds legit.
You're the one who made the claim that it has been proven and that there are links to reputable sources indicating what you've claimed. The burden is on you to provide that proof. Right here, post a link to a news article. If you won't, you're admitting that you can't.
No, I never made that claim. You are confusing posters.
It takes 2 seconds to google to find the FB links. You really don’t care about them; you just want to be oppositional.
You could end the debate right now if you post those links that you found in 2 seconds. Why won't you?
Because I have already posted it (again) recently. And I’m not your Google btch.
The rest of us all know what went down. You’re the clueless one here. Put in the 2-sec of work if you actually want the info. I’m guessing you don’t.
Except that you haven't. You're unwilling to post it because you're a liar and full of shit.
Yes, and everybody knows at this point.
Don't feed the trolls.
They literally copy paste the same sentence in response to you and get walls of texts from you guys sometimes.
Anonymous wrote:Any parents of kids who took the Quant Q during the years the school wàs using it who could ask their kids if they signed an NDA before taking the test?
My kid was already at TJ when they changed to the Quant Q. He remembers talk about the applicants having to sign a statement but says he cant remember for certain and can’t swear to it. He does remember having to sign honor code statements when taking certain tests in classes and that some teachers collected tests after kids saw their scores and talked to the kids about not sharing questions with anyone, inside or outside the school.
On the roundup thread I posted a link and language that test takers agree to before the test.
As I posted above, that language was not about test questions but the design.
Regardless,it's clear that many test takers reported these questions back to the prep center to help improve their question bank.
who are the test takers? what's the prep center?
No one knows about this fictitious story, but for this one poster who appears afraid of naming the prep center.
It’s no big secret. Curie and probably other test prep companies.
Details in the roundup thread.
Which Curie? Is it Curie Learning that continues to send the same hundred each year, even after admissions change? How is that possible?
Well, this entire Curie mention seems like either a brilliant marketing tactic or a fictional story made up by a delusional Curie loather. Most likely the latter.
As I've said many times, I do not care how much success Curie has in separating Indian families from their hard-earned money in an attempt to keep up with the rest of their community and get a leg up on everyone else.
All I care about is that that behavior is not specifically rewarded by the TJ Admissions process, and inarguably it no longer is. We won, and the Supreme Court ended the conversation earlier this year. And if Curie won too because of greater exposure, that's fine. I genuinely don't care.
Kids from disadvantaged economic circumstances now have access to TJ where they didn't before - to include plenty of Asian kids. As long as that is the case, I will consider my personal crusade a success and there's nothing you can do to convince me otherwise.
This is exactly why they need a more robust application that holistically evaluates courses taken, test scores, teacher recommendations, grades, essays, and achievements, but still with regional allocation of spots. The easiest way to find the overly prepped kids is to look for the ones with inconsistent packets. If a kid at a high SES school has extremely high grades and test scores, as well as very polished essays, but the kid's actual achievements and teacher recommendations point to a kid who is at best above average, then it's a pretty strong indicator that the kid is overly prepped. Likewise, if the kid is taking Algebra II or pre-calc in 8th grade, but hasn't managed to accomplish anything in AMCs or Mathcounts, and doesn't have a teacher that is raving about the kid, then the kid is likely a product of prep and not talent.
or they could just change the ducking questions instead of using the same questions from year to year.
Anonymous wrote:Any parents of kids who took the Quant Q during the years the school wàs using it who could ask their kids if they signed an NDA before taking the test?
My kid was already at TJ when they changed to the Quant Q. He remembers talk about the applicants having to sign a statement but says he cant remember for certain and can’t swear to it. He does remember having to sign honor code statements when taking certain tests in classes and that some teachers collected tests after kids saw their scores and talked to the kids about not sharing questions with anyone, inside or outside the school.
On the roundup thread I posted a link and language that test takers agree to before the test.
As I posted above, that language was not about test questions but the design.
Regardless,it's clear that many test takers reported these questions back to the prep center to help improve their question bank.
who are the test takers? what's the prep center?
No one knows about this fictitious story, but for this one poster who appears afraid of naming the prep center.
It’s no big secret. Curie and probably other test prep companies.
Details in the roundup thread.
Which Curie? Is it Curie Learning that continues to send the same hundred each year, even after admissions change? How is that possible?
Well, this entire Curie mention seems like either a brilliant marketing tactic or a fictional story made up by a delusional Curie loather. Most likely the latter.
As I've said many times, I do not care how much success Curie has in separating Indian families from their hard-earned money in an attempt to keep up with the rest of their community and get a leg up on everyone else.
All I care about is that that behavior is not specifically rewarded by the TJ Admissions process, and inarguably it no longer is. We won, and the Supreme Court ended the conversation earlier this year. And if Curie won too because of greater exposure, that's fine. I genuinely don't care.
Kids from disadvantaged economic circumstances now have access to TJ where they didn't before - to include plenty of Asian kids. As long as that is the case, I will consider my personal crusade a success and there's nothing you can do to convince me otherwise.
Wow. Congratulations.
Now let me share some of my own humble agendas which might have fallen short.
For one, I'd like to avoid living in a world where - due to the lack of clarity to, objectivity of, and respect for the standards for high intellect - meaningful decision-making has devolved into a competition over who can out-stupid everyone else. (Checks the latest political and election news) I suppose we haven't succeeded.
Two, I'd hate it if people with a history of prejudice get comfortable with this idea of success - that they can take shallow measures that look like they solve a problem which only exists due of their own behavior, and use that to make themselves feel like they've been doing right all along. That they're the ones who's opinions on equity everyone else should be heeding. (Checks the latest war news) It doesn't look like we're doing well on this front.
Three, as the parent of an elementary kid in AAP, the process for AAP selection seemed unintuitively subjective and uncertain. I can think of a number of times when my child received what I considered bad advice from teachers regarding academic goals, ostensibly to support the framework of so-called equity. I'd be concerned that this is part of a wider trend, especially since TJ admissions is something which looms in the not-too-distant future for us. (Checks MATHCOUNTS news) I don't think my concerns have been allayed.
Finally, let's talk about the TJ court case. In context, the ruling was that, although the admissions changes were without doubt spearheaded by an obvious racist with unambiguously racist intentions, they could legitimately be interpreted as an attempt to solve a legitimate problem. The court naturally would not have held an opinion about whether the strategy used was an effective or reasonable way to solve the problem. It would be deeply unusual and awkward, then, if someone were to hold this ruling up as a way to say that they're better than everyone else. (Reads this forum) Never mind.
DP. I have two kids in AAP and one going to TJ this fall. We don't have Math counts or Matt club or anything like that, not would DC have been interested in doing any of that. I can't say I think these competitions have anything to do with anything, especially wrt talent or being deserving of being admitted to a magnet school.
I'm sorry that you're discouraged about merit and meritocracy. I don't think your fears are well-founded. The good kids will do well. When good programs do not admit some kids, they will succeed somewhere else.
Fwiw, I think there are problems with the new admissions process and with geographic admissions generally (I grew up in Texas and witnessed the good and bad there). But there were problems with the old admissions process that merited fixing, or at least changing. So overall I think this is better. In time, the process will change again. And we'll see then what ia new admissions process ooks like.
Yes it will change, they moved the goalposts and there is still a bit of merit left in the process. When the meritorious students adapt to the new goal posts FCPS will move them once again if they don't like the racial balance of the admitted pool.
Anonymous wrote:The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.
So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.
Nine.
Where are you getting these numbers.
From the class of 2024 (the last year under the old system) to the class of 2025 (the first year of the new system)
Asian kids went from 355 to 299 a reduction of 56
Black kids went from 7 to 39 an increase of 32
Hispanic kids went from 16 to 62 an increase of 46
White kids went from 86 to 123 and increase of 37
If you go back to the class of 2011 TJ is largely white.
Noone seemed bothered by the incredibly low number of black and hispanic students then.
It only started bothering people when TJ became largely asian.
This is what Derrick bell called interest convergence.
White people suddenly found the wisdom of moving away from objective measures of merit when their kids were the ones being excluded by merit.
The class of 2028 has 140 white kids, 315 asian kids, 41 hispanic kids and only 19 black kids. But mission accomplished, that is a good improvement from the 86 white kids that got in under the old system.
I averaged the number of Asian students in the admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change and then for the years after the change. I can post detailed #s the next time I’m on my computer.
The asian population 10 years ago was not quite what it is today.
Anonymous wrote:Here are two things that you can see pretty consistently on these fora:
You'll be called "racist" if you fail to rubber-stamp the idea that Asians are inherently smarter than every other demographic.
And you'll be called an "equity warrior" if you assert that poor kids, Black kids, or Hispanic kids have what it takes to succeed at a place like TJ.
The premises from which these folks operate who champion the old status quo are so outlandish, but if you question them, you're suddenly "anti-merit", as if the only possible way to achieve merit is through a standardized exam.
Asians aren't necessarily smarter. Just harder working. You can argue with the data but it's peer reviewed.
Asians can be poor too and yet they still outperform on every academic front.
Take stuyvesant in NYC where asians have the highest poverty rate, significantly higher than blacks. Asians have a higher incidence of free and reduced lunch at the specialized high schools in nyc. And people still want to pretend that it's about wealth and income and not effort.
That's not the same thing. There are billions of Asians and this only shows the top students.
Billions?
These are all Asian American teenagers. They’re dominating all other races in American competitions.
And once again, this is likely because they study harder. Their childhood probably involved much more rigorous academic activity.
The thing that asians believe is that their child (smart, dumb or average) will have better opportunities if they study harder. Their C+ kid will have more opportunities if you can coach him ho to a B- student, your A student will have more opportunities if they do USAMO. Your B student will have more opportunities if you can help them become an A- student. And a few tears during childhood are worth the advantages those opportunities will bring. Others do not have the same faith in the ability of those increased grades to imrpove opportunities sufficiently to deny their children the same playtime as their peers.
If TJ admissions were a reflection of income then TJ would be predominantly white.
Are you under the impression that the asians in fairfax are wealthier than the white people in fairfax? GTFOH
Nobody said this. The important point is that the admissions changes have made it possible for many more kids from lower income and/or less educated family situations to have the opportunity to attend TJ. That is what matters, not what race anyone happens to be.
Kids don’t get to choose their families. Are you mad that kids who happen to have less well off and/or less well educated parents are now attending TJ?
Race was the singular driving factor behind this change.
Anonymous wrote:That’s why it happened to diversify and create equality.
Anonymous wrote:Merit Test based Admissions:
Class of 2019, Asian American students received 70.20%
Class of 2020, Asian American students received 71.34%
Class of 2021, Asian American students received 74.90%
Class of 2023, Asian American students received 72.87%
Class of 2024, Asian American students received 73.05%
Admissions changed to Essay based, and increased enrollment of 8th grade algebra1 students:
Class of 2025, Asian American students received 54.36%
Class of 2026, Asian American students received 59.82%
Class of 2027, Asian American students received 61.64%.
Class of 2028, Asian American students received 57.27%
Wow, it may be a slip, but exactly does a school system create equality? Changing the standards for admission may allow some heretofore students in and keep others out, but some students will always perform better than others. There is no such thing as "equality" in performance at TJ or elsewhere.
Equity politics begins and ends with giveaways. The School Board can hand out a TJ offer to the underqualified under the guise of a reward, but they cannot compel a student to study after gaining admission to TJ.
Stop trashing these kids to push your politics. It's disgusting. All of the admitted students were qualified for TJ.
The fact that under-qualified students were being admitted was reported by the principal who mentioned "9th grade students scoring below proficient on the initial Math Inventory", were being jump-started with ALEKS remedial in the third month itself. If admissions was merit based, why would remedial math be needed at the school start?
They are really not academically competitive with their peers at TJ from prior years.
Haha, if you think kids at TJ were not taking remedial classes in the past, I have a bridge to sell you.
Lots of kids in the past had tutors every day after school and would even take classes elsewhere in the summer so that they could take essentially the same class again at TJ for credit. Many of these kids were the same ones who prepped to get in.
I personally know some of these kids and their parents, so I know this to be true. My kid knows more of the kids I’m talking about here. If you’ve had long experience with TJ you would know this.
The magnitude of remedial classes is not even close.
Why doesnt FCPS disclose the applicant count by race now, like they always did before admissions change? All data points to the fact that Asians acceptance rate is lower compared to students of other races. Is the concern it would get exposed?
There are many middle schools with extremely low numbers of Asians. Thus we observe the Asian acceptance rate proportionally decreases now that some schools with very few Asians send 1.5% of their kids.
You have to understand that acceptance is divided by the new expanded total class size, so it's a simple equation of proportion that Asian acceptance rate must decrease. It can only stay the same if Asians significantly increased their number of applications.
If Asian families would move to all the middle schools where there currently are very few Asians instead of concentrating at Rocky Run and Carson, then we would see Asians increase in percentage again.
It sounds like you are saying that asians have to move to avoid discrimination.
No, that is a very incorrect accusation. A decreased acceptance rate has nothing to do with discrimination and is mathematically, not subjectively, the result of the 1.5% distribution per middle school. Is it discrimination to give opportunity to every middle school to send kids to a local high school that serves the area?
The data has been posted earlier: the number of Asian kids enrolled has stayed constant.
Yes it's racist if the reason you implemented the plan was to discriminate on the basis of race.
So you are saying that the acceptance rate is proportional to the applicant pool? Statistically, that probably only happens with something like a lottery. This is basically a lot6tery of the applicant pool and lotteries themselves are not racist but if the reason you changed to a lottery was infused with racist motivations then the lottery becomes racist (see literacy exams)
The last class admitted under a merit based system was 355. The first class admitted under the current system was 299.
Anonymous wrote:So 75ish less Asian students are getting in each year now? How did the rest of the population feel about having such a large majority before? I remember reading that they were very uncomfortable. Maybe they should have changed the mission of TJ to diversity it better rather than the application.
Rest of the the population celebrated the Asian majority at TJ since they reinforced TJ's standing. It is the equity politicians that went about tinkering with TJ. The 75 Asian students that are denied their TJ spots, can easily handle the base school rigor. The same cant be said of the 75 replacement Algebra 1 students that are suffering at TJ with remedial math and playing constant catch-up.
The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.
So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.
race based selections and racial quota management behind those numbers is concerning.
There is no racial quota or race-based selections.
Stop spreading misinformation.
FCPS reserved spots for every middle school whether those kids were qualified or not. Those middle schools have different demographics.
Stop spreading misinformation.
ZERO students were automatically granted admission. They ALL had to meet the criteria and go through admissions/evaluation process.
The minimum criteria are met by 40% of the student population. There are schools that did not send the minimum to TJ because they didn't have enough qualified applicants. Those that did apply automatically gained admission.
So unless you think 40% of the student population are qualified, the quota will result in unqualified students.
FCPS had around 14,000 8th graders that year based on the school profiles membership history for 2020-21. This means around 31% of FCPS 8th graders met the TJ qualification bar that year.
I think that's the closest we have to actual data.
This is good info. This is a purely anecdotal observation but there has been a spike in grade inflation in the last 2 years. I don't know if it was because the base year you mention were covid years and students have recovered or because schools are trying to goose grades to create a bigger applicant pool but I suspect it is the former.
Anonymous wrote:
Of course, it's no coincidence that algebra 1 count went from 20+ in 2024 before admissions change to 160+ in the 2025 class, and the new class was declared as having more diversity.
"Compared to TJ Class of 2024, the proportion of students in Class of 2025 admitted with the minimal required math background of Algebra 1 in 8th grade increased sevenfold, from 4.5% to 31%"
https://www.fcag.org/documents/TJ_Class_of_2025_analysis.pdf From Page 3: "Compared to previous years, there is a huge leap in the number of students taking Algebra 1 rather than higher level math. There were 161 students admitted who only had taken Algebra 1 In previous years, that number has been about 20 students ... "
It appears Algebr 1 criteria was used to sift out the 1140+ denied asian american applicants
Admissions are a secret process for a reason. Manipulate as needed first, and cook an explanation later.
The reason admissions processes are secret (by the way, the TJ Admissions process is WAY less opaque than it should be) is to prevent people from narrowly tailoring either their or their child's lives in pursuit of the acceptance letter.
Purely objective, rubric-based admissions processes result in dangerously homogenous admit populations. At TJ in the 2010s, that manifested itself in a hyper-competitive environment where you had too many kids who were trying to achieve the same goals along the same path when multiple paths were readily available. It was a deeply unhealthy environment and eventually resulted in TJ's first instances of suicide and a huge spike in self-harm.
Transparency is always better than opaque and subjective measures. Asians were routinely scored lower on “personality traits” by Harvard only so that admission outcomes could be engineered as desired. Harvard leveraged subjective criteria in the 1920s as well to restrict the number of Jewish students.
People study to the test - whether it is TJ, SAT, LSAT or MCAT. You may get homogeneity as a result but it is way better than engineered outcomes that are not tied to merit in any way. There is a reason elite schools are returning to standardized testing.
You must not be very familiar with the SAT. They change it every few years. It's a completely different test now that it was in the last iteration, or the one before that, or the one before that.
Ok. You have educated me on how frequently the SAT changes. That is also a point to be made. Change the test but don’t eliminate it.
P.S. - did you know that despite the periodic changes, SAT prep is a thriving industry? Just google SAT prep. You are welcome…
"The US Test Preparation market is valued at USD 14.72 billion ..." . Interestingly, "Sports Coaching in the US - Market Size is $13.9bn"
How can a family afford one and not substitute it for the other?
Guess it's a matter of values. Are there special SPORTS high schools that only admit the top 1.5% of athletes, similar to how TJ admits the top 1.5% of students?
Racial balancing takes place only where Asian Americans are in majority, not when other races are. Equity minions are chicken to even talk about sports.
Racial balancing used to exist in sports.
After Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier, blacks quickly became over-represented and the teams very quickly imposed a quota on how many black players they could have any how many black players could play on the field at a time. No team could field more than 4 black players so there would always be a majority of white fielders. So if a black pitcher went in, a black position player had to come out. The arguments for this behavior would sound familiar today:
Blacks are over-represented, how could there be any discrimination?
We're just trying to get the racial mix to match our audience (segregation still existed and the "premium customers" were mostly white).
It's a private organization, they can do what they like.
You're just measuring baseball statistics to say that the black players are better players, there are all sorts of intangibles that a team has to consider that you would know nothing about.
Anonymous wrote:So 75ish less Asian students are getting in each year now? How did the rest of the population feel about having such a large majority before? I remember reading that they were very uncomfortable. Maybe they should have changed the mission of TJ to diversity it better rather than the application.
Rest of the the population celebrated the Asian majority at TJ since they reinforced TJ's standing. It is the equity politicians that went about tinkering with TJ. The 75 Asian students that are denied their TJ spots, can easily handle the base school rigor. The same cant be said of the 75 replacement Algebra 1 students that are suffering at TJ with remedial math and playing constant catch-up.
The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.
So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.
race based selections and racial quota management behind those numbers is concerning.
There is no racial quota or race-based selections.
Stop spreading misinformation.
FCPS reserved spots for every middle school whether those kids were qualified or not. Those middle schools have different demographics.
Stop spreading misinformation.
ZERO students were automatically granted admission. They ALL had to meet the criteria and go through admissions/evaluation process.
The minimum criteria are met by 40% of the student population. There are schools that did not send the minimum to TJ because they didn't have enough qualified applicants. Those that did apply automatically gained admission.
So unless you think 40% of the student population are qualified, the quota will result in unqualified students.
FCPS had around 14,000 8th graders that year based on the school profiles membership history for 2020-21. This means around 31% of FCPS 8th graders met the TJ qualification bar that year.
I think that's the closest we have to actual data.
This is good info. This is a purely anecdotal observation but there has been a spike in grade inflation in the last 2 years. I don't know if it was because the base year you mention were covid years and students have recovered or because schools are trying to goose grades to create a bigger applicant pool but I suspect it is the former.
Your post reads like you mean latter but you say former. You say grade inflation which implies undeserved grade improvements but if they are coming off of covid, those grade improvements are probably deserved, aren't they? So there is no effort to pack the applicant pool with unqualified students of a particular race, right?
Anonymous wrote:So 75ish less Asian students are getting in each year now? How did the rest of the population feel about having such a large majority before? I remember reading that they were very uncomfortable. Maybe they should have changed the mission of TJ to diversity it better rather than the application.
Rest of the the population celebrated the Asian majority at TJ since they reinforced TJ's standing. It is the equity politicians that went about tinkering with TJ. The 75 Asian students that are denied their TJ spots, can easily handle the base school rigor. The same cant be said of the 75 replacement Algebra 1 students that are suffering at TJ with remedial math and playing constant catch-up.
The average number of Asian students per admitted class for the 10 years prior to the change was 330. The average since the change was 321.
So, on average, there are 9 fewer Asian kids per class after the change.
race based selections and racial quota management behind those numbers is concerning.
There is no racial quota or race-based selections.
Stop spreading misinformation.
FCPS reserved spots for every middle school whether those kids were qualified or not. Those middle schools have different demographics.
Stop spreading misinformation.
ZERO students were automatically granted admission. They ALL had to meet the criteria and go through admissions/evaluation process.
The minimum criteria are met by 40% of the student population. There are schools that did not send the minimum to TJ because they didn't have enough qualified applicants. Those that did apply automatically gained admission.
So unless you think 40% of the student population are qualified, the quota will result in unqualified students.
FCPS had around 14,000 8th graders that year based on the school profiles membership history for 2020-21. This means around 31% of FCPS 8th graders met the TJ qualification bar that year.
I think that's the closest we have to actual data.
This is good info. This is a purely anecdotal observation but there has been a spike in grade inflation in the last 2 years. I don't know if it was because the base year you mention were covid years and students have recovered or because schools are trying to goose grades to create a bigger applicant pool but I suspect it is the former.
Your post reads like you mean latter but you say former. You say grade inflation which implies undeserved grade improvements but if they are coming off of covid, those grade improvements are probably deserved, aren't they? So there is no effort to pack the applicant pool with unqualified students of a particular race, right?
If that were true, they failed miserably. The demographics see m pretty similar and the biggest beneficiary of the changes were low on income Asian families
If TJ admissions were a reflection of income then TJ would be predominantly white.
Are you under the impression that the asians in fairfax are wealthier than the white people in fairfax? GTFOH
Nobody said this. The important point is that the admissions changes have made it possible for many more kids from lower income and/or less educated family situations to have the opportunity to attend TJ. That is what matters, not what race anyone happens to be.
Kids don’t get to choose their families. Are you mad that kids who happen to have less well off and/or less well educated parents are now attending TJ?
Race was the singular driving factor behind this change.
That's complete nonsense. The process is race blind. If you can show otherwise you will be able to win a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Good luck!
Anonymous wrote: Asian count remains more or less same, but the Asian percent has gone down?
Along with the admissions change, the total number of seats were expanded by 100 seats, but Asian students were solely excluded from participating in the expanded seat assignment. There are consistently 1000+ declined Asian applicants each year, largest among all ethnicities, and none of them are allowed to receive a single seat from the expanded seat quota.
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