USC and Columbia Protests

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Protestors:

If orga and schools continue to say "no" to your demands, what's next? Remember, they have the option to say "no" in reality.

Actually, this applies to the U.S. govt. If the U.S. govt continues to say "no", what are you going to do?

Sure but protests like these can impact public perception and effect change. Look at the anti Anti Vietnam protests and SA disinvestment.

Instead of scoffing at these protesters why don’t you look at why they feel so strongly. Maybe there is something there. Of course it’s easier to write them off as idiots…

So I need to do what they say because they are angry--no I will not cower to mob rule

Goodness no, you must not listen to bright citizens of this country. You must take directives from the government of a foreign country.

RIP Biden. I’m GenX and am appalled. Beyond the pale.

If you’re Gen X, you know better than to accept a social media post at face value.

C’mon.

Well, I googled it and was surprised to find that 13 states sued the Biden administration due to the FBI spying on parents protesting school boards in 2022. Also, with his far-reaching FISA surveillance renewal days ago, it seems likely. Also, UConn reported that was it was happening on the campus in Nov.

So, my statement stands.

So, you’re guessing, but are willing to make sweeping conclusions when you don’t know the facts.

No offense, but that’s just silly. Far too much of that going on these days.

Also, as an FYI, the 13 states brought an FOIA case seeking documents about *potential* surveillance.

And the FISA renewal only applies to communications with foreign nationals.

They want to FOIA because it's presumed that the US was spying on them.

Also, re FISA, it is being abused.

"A 2023 report from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court found the FBI misused the law’s tool nearly 300,000 times between 2020 and early 2021, including the collection of information on Jan. 6 rioters and Black Lives Matter protesters. Earlier this month, Trump called on lawmakers to “kill” the legislation—which was briefly extended in December—and incorrectly said it was used to improperly spy on his campaign. The Justice Department previously determined the FBI improperly obtained two warrants to spy on a former aide to his campaign, though the warrants were obtained under a different section of FISA, Title I." https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2024/04/20/biden-signs-foreign-surveillance-act-after-trumps-effort-to-kill-it/?sh=d15859b53b04

ACLU opposes it.

It's rich that you say I'm "guessing," when you are clearly burying your head and taking everything from big brother at face value. Might have to hand in that GenX card for not be skeptical enough.

So, again, you have presented no evidence whatsoever that current protesters' private communications are being surveilled.

But you nonetheless have concluded with 100% certainty that they are.

That would be the exact definition of "guessing".

As for the FOIA and FISA issues, I won't belabor the point, except to say that you're jumping to conclusions that the facts do not warrant. Again.

DP, but everyone should just assume the feds are monitoring their communications at all time. We've known about the metadata monitoring since Snowden over a decade ago. They used cell signals to identify J6 protestors.
People are probably going to start ending up on no-fly lists and things like that soon. Many of you probably cheered the FBI taking on "domestic terrorism." Guess who that's aimed at now?

OMG, the paranoia.

Such silliness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/?gift=mg7b1AqRHrzgE279scHT_JqGAaK-cEdHC33cpDj0ano&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

The Unreality of Columbia’s ‘Liberated Zone’
What happens when genuine sympathy for civilian suffering mixes with a fervor that borders on the oppressive?

By Michael Powell

"students chanting like automatons"

"Repeat after me,” he says, and 100 protesters dutifully repeat: “I’m bored! We would like you to leave!”

"Upon entering the zone, I was instructed to listen as a gatekeeper read community guidelines that included not talking with people not authorized to be inside—a category that seemed to include anyone of differing opinions. "

"The prevailing tone tends toward late-stage Frantz Fanon: much talk of revolution and purging oneself of bourgeois affectation. "

Reading this article, I am struck by how absolutely stupid these kids sound. I don't care what they are protesting, they just sound stupid. I didn't grow up here, did college protests in bygone eras sound so asinine? And how do I make sure my kids do not become this dumb?

Really, I found the journalist really biased. God forbid someone want to divest after "the death toll has grown"*:

"As the war has raged on and the death toll has grown, protest rallies on American campuses have morphed into a campaign of ever grander and more elaborate ambitions: From “Cease-fire now” to the categorical claim that Israel is guilty of genocide and war crimes to demands that Columbia divest from Israeli companies and any American company selling arms to the Jewish state."

And, you don't find it troubling that professors are telling Jewish students to leave for their safety when the protestors held a Shabbat dinner and were planning a Passover seder?

Finally, why should the protestors want to talk to a journalist who is so clearly patronizing?

(*grown = 35k deaths in 6 mo + Israeli soldier casualties in the hundreds)

It's pretty funny/pathetic/stupid for anti-Israel protesters to have a seder...

Are you a total idiot? There are Jewish protestors.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/jewish-student-protesters-say-antisemitism-is-being-weaponized-against-them-209582661809

So filled with hate you can't even recognize the many Jewish students who are protesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good for the protests. We should all be protesting the horrors against INNOCENT people. 33k+ have died in Gaza because Israel is hell bent on revenge. Yeah, they got hit and they shouldn't have been, yeah, they have innocents held hostages and they shouldn't be, yeah, they have a right to defend themselves. They act like they have carte blanche now to do anything and everything they want against a whole separate nationality. They DO NOT. No country should have that right. THIS is what everyone is protesting - the Jews do not have any right to suggest they are better than any other nationality just because they went through some shit. Absolutely ZERO right. And they deserve to be called out on their arrogance - that's not anti-semitism. I'm sick of all criticism against Jews labelled as such.

You couldn't even separate Israeli from Jews in your post. Which clearly illustrates a major part of the problem we're having with these protests and their inability to separate country from faith.

My stance goes back to the same issue that is always at the core of the tension, no one has an alternative solution for what Israel should have done following October 7. And it's because there really isn't one. Either Israel is allowed to defend itself and respond to a severe and brutal act of terrorism of breathtaking savagery, or it's not. It's that simple.

What you don't get PP is that Israel is wrong for reacting to Hamas. What Hamas did was terrible. What Israel is doing currently is terrible if not worse because they are purposefully going after innocent people to punish guilty parties. Do you get that?

You all defenders of Israel's policy currently use the defense of revenge against Hamas actions and/or they aren't surrendering/doing what Israel asks/being nice and negotiating the way Israel wants. What you all fail to take into account is that Israel has free will. They can be a good or bad actor in this scenario. What they've chosen to do is to be just as bad if not worse than Hamas because you assume that the good actors know the difference between right and wrong.

If you know better and don't do better (good guys who act like bad guys), you are worse than those who don't do better because they just don't know better (bad guys). There IS NO EXCUSE - none. Even if 1/2 their population got decimated - for Israel to wage war against innocent civilians. ZERO excuse whatosover. You can say everything about how evil Hamas is but the actions Israel are taking currently is free will.

There also isn't anything preventing Hamas from surrendering and letting Israel shut down the tunnels and getting their hostages back and stopping using their people as human shields. And stop plotting terror attacks. But they won't because they're enabled by people like you. All those donations to Gaza - billions and billions - over the years from people like you went into building the tunnels and plotting terrorism. Think about that long and hard.

Or even negotiating a ceasefire that both parties can agree to. Even a temporary ceasefire. Even in exchange for five hostages.

They won't do it.

And yet the NPR piece I heard this morning, detailing the horrific losses of some families in Gaza, didn't even mention Hamas walking out of ceasefire negotiations, over and over.

[Anonymous]

Students at a growing number of U.S. colleges are gathering in protest encampments with a unified demand of their schools: Stop doing business with Israel — or any companies that empower its ongoing war in Gaza.

The demand has its roots in a decades-old campaign against Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians. The movement has taken on new strength as the Israel-Hamas war surpasses the six-month mark and stories of suffering in Gaza have sparked international calls for a cease-fire.

https://apnews.com/article/college-protests-israel-divestment-palestinians-3f37f96f7be8e1124f266842d9caa627?utm_source=newsshowcase&utm_medium=gnews&utm_campaign=CDAqDwgAKgcICjCE7s4BMOH0KDC614AD&utm_content=rundown

This is what is needed. It is time for the American people’s voice to be heard over the AIPAC’s money.

[Anonymous]

What you don't get PP is that Israel is wrong for reacting to Hamas. What Hamas did was terrible. What Israel is doing currently is terrible if not worse because they are purposefully going after innocent people to punish guilty parties. Do you get that?

You all defenders of Israel's policy currently use the defense of revenge against Hamas actions and/or they aren't surrendering/doing what Israel asks/being nice and negotiating the way Israel wants. What you all fail to take into account is that Israel has free will. They can be a good or bad actor in this scenario. What they've chosen to do is to be just as bad if not worse than Hamas because you assume that the good actors know the difference between right and wrong.

If you know better and don't do better (good guys who act like bad guys), you are worse than those who don't do better because they just don't know better (bad guys). There IS NO EXCUSE - none. Even if 1/2 their population got decimated - for Israel to wage war against innocent civilians. ZERO excuse whatosover. You can say everything about how evil Hamas is but the actions Israel are taking currently is free will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

People are hyper fixated on Gaza because it’s life or death right now. There’s needless killing of civilians right now s it’s a priority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

That's not at issue. What is is whether people are willing to tolerate it or not?

Many are. There was a poster upthread who said "Israel has no choice." There is always a choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

[Anonymous]

The UN's human rights chief has said he is "horrified" by the destruction of Gaza's Nasser and al-Shifa hospitals and the reports of "mass graves" being found at the sites after Israeli raids.
Volker Türk called for independent investigations into the deaths.
Palestinian officials said they had exhumed 283 bodies at Nasser, some with their hands tied. It is not clear how they died or when they were buried.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68881325

Looks like the work of death squads. It is interesting that the IDF is now conducting major raids in north Gaza and ordering people to leave. Wonder what the IDF is hiding there?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently spoke to a lawyer whose firm represents a number of universities, etc., and long story short: antisemitism on college campuses has been a thing since before October 7 and students with Islamic extremist tendencies are typically but not always involved. The lawyer’s exact words: “what we are seeing in the news this week is nothing compared to what’s been quietly happening for the last few years.”

So, we have antisemitism but what’s the word for Americans supporting Gazans who are being bullied and shamed relentlessly by Zionists??? God forbid if someone opens their mouth to criticize Israel, so are well all supposed to take a pledge of allegiance to Israel? See, money can buy you power but it cannot win public sentiment and in the long run public sentiment is what determines if the powerful remain that way.

I’m wondering if you are capable of stepping back to see the bigger, far more complex picture…or if you are only able to hyperfixate on Gaza?

Literally everyone recognizes the tragic suffering in Gaza. Everyone. Even Israelis.

But the situation pre-October 7 and post-October 7 is far more complex than the overly simplified messaging.

We are dealing with multiple countries sucked into a very serious powder keg: Western values vs Anti-western values.

If you are posting on dcum, you enjoy western values.

What’s unclear is how this will end.

I think the West is hoping to move the needle rather than just maintain status quo.

If you can’t recognize the complexity of the big picture…sigh.

What are these "Western values" of which you speak? Does it include supplying weapons to aid genocide? Does it include rolling back women's rights to accommodate men? Does it include getting rid of abortion rights, killing millions of people since WWII, invading countries for oil? Please, I would love to know about these values you hold so dear.

But you love America, right?

And the far left wonders why they can't win anything in the US?

You ascribing values to a country is stupid. It's why people are shocked that a "democracy" like Israel is committing genocide. Clearly these "Western values" don't mean anything.

And THAT is why we can't be friends.

Western values are the cornerstone of the modern world, which afford the highest and best quality of life in the history of humankind.

The problem is not the lack of values or the content of those values, it's that they are too often ignored (including by the US).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What you don't get PP is that Israel is wrong for reacting to Hamas. What Hamas did was terrible. What Israel is doing currently is terrible if not worse because they are purposefully going after innocent people to punish guilty parties. Do you get that?

You all defenders of Israel's policy currently use the defense of revenge against Hamas actions and/or they aren't surrendering/doing what Israel asks/being nice and negotiating the way Israel wants. What you all fail to take into account is that Israel has free will. They can be a good or bad actor in this scenario. What they've chosen to do is to be just as bad if not worse than Hamas because you assume that the good actors know the difference between right and wrong.

If you know better and don't do better (good guys who act like bad guys), you are worse than those who don't do better because they just don't know better (bad guys). There IS NO EXCUSE - none. Even if 1/2 their population got decimated - for Israel to wage war against innocent civilians. ZERO excuse whatosover. You can say everything about how evil Hamas is but the actions Israel are taking currently is free will.

So, just to be sure I understand: when a terrorist group invades your country, rapes, slaughters, and kidnaps your citizens, refuses to release the hostages, promises that this one invasion is just the beginning - you're supposed to, what, drink a cup of tea and see what's on TV? That's the appropriate response?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Students at a growing number of U.S. colleges are gathering in protest encampments with a unified demand of their schools: Stop doing business with Israel — or any companies that empower its ongoing war in Gaza.

The demand has its roots in a decades-old campaign against Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians. The movement has taken on new strength as the Israel-Hamas war surpasses the six-month mark and stories of suffering in Gaza have sparked international calls for a cease-fire.

https://apnews.com/article/college-protests-israel-divestment-palestinians-3f37f96f7be8e1124f266842d9caa627?utm_source=newsshowcase&utm_medium=gnews&utm_campaign=CDAqDwgAKgcICjCE7s4BMOH0KDC614AD&utm_content=rundown

This is what is needed. It is time for the American people’s voice to be heard over the AIPAC’s money.

You're aware that the VAST majority of Americans generally support Israel, not Palestinians, correct?

Numbers are different with respect to Israel's military actions in Gaza, but overall the American people are strongly pro-Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/?gift=mg7b1AqRHrzgE279scHT_JqGAaK-cEdHC33cpDj0ano&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

The Unreality of Columbia’s ‘Liberated Zone’
What happens when genuine sympathy for civilian suffering mixes with a fervor that borders on the oppressive?

By Michael Powell

"students chanting like automatons"

"Repeat after me,” he says, and 100 protesters dutifully repeat: “I’m bored! We would like you to leave!”

"Upon entering the zone, I was instructed to listen as a gatekeeper read community guidelines that included not talking with people not authorized to be inside—a category that seemed to include anyone of differing opinions. "

"The prevailing tone tends toward late-stage Frantz Fanon: much talk of revolution and purging oneself of bourgeois affectation. "

Reading this article, I am struck by how absolutely stupid these kids sound. I don't care what they are protesting, they just sound stupid. I didn't grow up here, did college protests in bygone eras sound so asinine? And how do I make sure my kids do not become this dumb?

Really, I found the journalist really biased. God forbid someone want to divest after "the death toll has grown"*:

"As the war has raged on and the death toll has grown, protest rallies on American campuses have morphed into a campaign of ever grander and more elaborate ambitions: From “Cease-fire now” to the categorical claim that Israel is guilty of genocide and war crimes to demands that Columbia divest from Israeli companies and any American company selling arms to the Jewish state."

And, you don't find it troubling that professors are telling Jewish students to leave for their safety when the protestors held a Shabbat dinner and were planning a Passover seder?

Finally, why should the protestors want to talk to a journalist who is so clearly patronizing?

(*grown = 35k deaths in 6 mo + Israeli soldier casualties in the hundreds)

It's pretty funny/pathetic/stupid for anti-Israel protesters to have a seder...

Why? It’s part of their religion. The government of Israel which is currently starving children s not a religion