Plane crash DCA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.

Military missions have different rules. They also are on different frequencies (although monitoring tower.) This is their normal route. It intersects the circle to land pattern for the short runway. It’s a dumb as crap situation and has been a disaster waiting to happen for years. Has nothing to do with how many flights there are at DCA or politics. The scopes are out and show this was a developing situation that ATC didn’t deconflict. And the helo pilot didn’t maintain visual separation. This was completely avoidable and while claiming trump or musk might feel good this one isn’t their fault.

It has everything to do with more flights. The helicopter pilot was confused because there were three planes up there with him. He thought he was visualizing the one ATC asked about. But oops! There was another plane up there he couldn’t see! The industry knew this was just a matter of time, but they wanted to keep adding new flights to the busiest runway in the nation.

https://www.protectregionalairports.com/2024/01/26/dca-is-still-the-busiest-runway-in-the-nation/

You thinking he couldn’t see a CR700 barreling towards him? He could see it - he didn’t look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s chaos in every single branch of the government right now. But sure blame the airport.

This is human error, not the government’s fault. But how can you not put some blame on the airport? It’s literally their job to manage planes landing. Saying to the helicopter “do you see the plane” when there are multiple close by planes, including one close enough to crash into them, seems like mismanagement of air traffic to me

I thought NextGen software covers the entire last 10 miles of any USA airport landing.
Pilot takes over if told to or sees a dire emergency or mechanical failure (and it’s not too late).
The flight patterns necessarily take planes and helicopters close to each other. This only works if you can trust the helicopter flying under visual rules to see approaching aircraft. Maybe that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation, but expecting ATC to handle this any other way than they did is wholly impractical.

When multiple planes are in the sky close together, how is it that ATC communicates and distinguishes them to each other? If ATC called the helicopter to ask if they had visual of “the plane,” and the helicopter said yes, but it was a different plane, then ATC made in error in not effectively communicating and distinguishing the threat.

True.

So it's called a visual approach. Only the US frequents this - pilots from Europe think we're nuts because sometimes it's impossible to catch the visual. You really need ATC or tech to make it a higher % of accuracy to make it truly safe. It is usually not a prob esp during day flights but at night even on a clear one, you may just miss seeing something you should. It's not anyone's fault per se but the system they use. I don't even think it's about too many flights contributing to this tragedy it's just the process is not safe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s chaos in every single branch of the government right now. But sure blame the airport.

This is human error, not the government’s fault. But how can you not put some blame on the airport? It’s literally their job to manage planes landing. Saying to the helicopter “do you see the plane” when there are multiple close by planes, including one close enough to crash into them, seems like mismanagement of air traffic to me

The flight patterns necessarily take planes and helicopters close to each other. This only works if you can trust the helicopter flying under visual rules to see approaching aircraft. Maybe that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation, but expecting ATC to handle this any other way than they did is wholly impractical.

When multiple planes are in the sky close together, how is it that ATC communicates and distinguishes them to each other? If ATC called the helicopter to ask if they had visual of “the plane,” and the helicopter said yes, but it was a different plane, then ATC made in error in not effectively communicating and distinguishing the threat.

True.

So it's called a visual approach. Only the US frequents this - pilots from Europe think we're nuts because sometimes it's impossible to catch the visual. You really need ATC or tech to make it a higher % of accuracy to make it truly safe. It is usually not a prob esp during day flights but at night even on a clear one, you may just miss seeing something you should. It's not anyone's fault per se but the system they use. I don't even think it's about too many flights contributing to this tragedy it's just the process is not safe.

Too many flights in is what caused the confused. The helicopter pilot had a visual on A plane, but not THE Plane that the ATC was warning him about.

You are making that up. Look at the actual flight paths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.

There’s a blackhawk pilot on ABC News - the helicopter was likely not flying low enough given planes descending onto the runway.

Wtf does this mean?? Planes don’t land in the air. They are dropping altitude to zero. Is that low enough for you??

It means the choppers are not supposed to be above 200 feet in that area. This one was at 300-400 feet. Just another mistake by the helicopter pilot - add it to the list.

Catch 22

- when they fly as low as required, they generate tons of public complaints after every flight

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biden and their administration signed off on the added flights a year ago. Again the blame game doesn't work. This is a tragedy some changes will need to happen like making sure helos and airplanes are on the same frequency , this could have happened with a police or even news chopper.

The number of flights wasn't the issue here. Helicopter routes shouldn't be so close to the runway approach. Especially at night.

Why was the helicopter so close to the plane

It didn’t see it approaching. There were a couple other close by planes they were visualizing and when ATC asked them if they say it, it wasn’t clear which plane they were referring to

how do you know this? why wouldn't it be looking/seeing the plane that was directly in front of them?

Unlike jets, helicopters can fly straight up and down. While I don’t know, it is my thought that since the helicopter thought ATC was talking about another plane, it was visualizing that one. The plane they hit was not in their forward or peripheral visual field, rather it was directly above or below the helicopter and they ended up flying directly down or up into it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.

There’s a blackhawk pilot on ABC News - the helicopter was likely not flying low enough given planes descending onto the runway.

People complain when they fly low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s zero reason for so many helicopters in DC, let alone “training flights.” They fly too low over residential areas and seem to just be doing it as a lark. They should train elsewhere.

They were returning to fort Belvior. Called it a training flight bc they probably flipped pilot and copilot. Not a big deal.

Hate their route, wish they left later.

We don’t know for sure if they flipped pilots, do we?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.

Military missions have different rules. They also are on different frequencies (although monitoring tower.) This is their normal route. It intersects the circle to land pattern for the short runway. It’s a dumb as crap situation and has been a disaster waiting to happen for years. Has nothing to do with how many flights there are at DCA or politics. The scopes are out and show this was a developing situation that ATC didn’t deconflict. And the helo pilot didn’t maintain visual separation. This was completely avoidable and while claiming trump or musk might feel good this one isn’t their fault.

can you elaborate? how could ATC have deconflicted? what does it mean that helo pilot didn't maintain visual separation?

Not in agreement that ATC didn't deconflict. Listen to the ATC audio.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biden and their administration signed off on the added flights a year ago. Again the blame game doesn't work. This is a tragedy some changes will need to happen like making sure helos and airplanes are on the same frequency , this could have happened with a police or even news chopper.

The number of flights wasn't the issue here. Helicopter routes shouldn't be so close to the runway approach. Especially at night.

Why was the helicopter so close to the plane

It was focused on other planes and thought it was Ok. Poor comms. Dark at night.

You are guessing. But that seems implausible given the flight path and the fact that they had to be looking straight at the plane before impact. It seems impossible for them to not see the brightly lit plane they flying toward.

This is the part I am not understanding.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand why helicopters are allowed to fly at all anywhere around busy landing paths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.

There’s a blackhawk pilot on ABC News - the helicopter was likely not flying low enough given planes descending onto the runway.

Wtf does this mean?? Planes don’t land in the air. They are dropping altitude to zero. Is that low enough for you??

It means the choppers are not supposed to be above 200 feet in that area. This one was at 300-400 feet. Just another mistake by the helicopter pilot - add it to the list.

Catch 22

- when they fly as low as required, they generate tons of public complaints after every flight

How about they just fly at the height required? Complaints are better than 70 dead bodies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s zero reason for so many helicopters in DC, let alone “training flights.” They fly too low over residential areas and seem to just be doing it as a lark. They should train elsewhere.

They were returning to fort Belvior. Called it a training flight bc they probably flipped pilot and copilot. Not a big deal.

Hate their route, wish they left later.

We don’t know for sure if they flipped pilots, do we?

People just make up whatever narrative they like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Listening to the scanner app. This is horrible. Just wait until President Musk shuts down the FAA.

Please keep the hate elsewhere.

Okay. Let’s talk instead about how unelected oligarch Musk attacked the FAA repeatedly because he didn’t like them fining SpaceX, and then demanded the head resign one year into his five year term. And so he did! On January 20. Well done, Elon. We totally don’t need government to function!

I just googled this to confirm, and it’s true, he quit 9 days earlier.

OMG I’m terrified who Trump might install. Between this and the military being at fault, it is 100% on them. Let’s see some leadership today to instill confidence that Americans are safe flying and that they’re taking this seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.

There’s a blackhawk pilot on ABC News - the helicopter was likely not flying low enough given planes descending onto the runway.

People complain when they fly low.

DP. Yes, I am always surprised at how low helicopters fly around here - now I've heard that they are supposed to be that low for safety, to avoid hitting planes. And this helicopter was too nigh, and hit a plane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s chaos in every single branch of the government right now. But sure blame the airport.

This is human error, not the government’s fault. But how can you not put some blame on the airport? It’s literally their job to manage planes landing. Saying to the helicopter “do you see the plane” when there are multiple close by planes, including one close enough to crash into them, seems like mismanagement of air traffic to me

The flight patterns necessarily take planes and helicopters close to each other. This only works if you can trust the helicopter flying under visual rules to see approaching aircraft. Maybe that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation, but expecting ATC to handle this any other way than they did is wholly impractical.

When multiple planes are in the sky close together, how is it that ATC communicates and distinguishes them to each other? If ATC called the helicopter to ask if they had visual of “the plane,” and the helicopter said yes, but it was a different plane, then ATC made in error in not effectively communicating and distinguishing the threat.

True.

So it's called a visual approach. Only the US frequents this - pilots from Europe think we're nuts because sometimes it's impossible to catch the visual. You really need ATC or tech to make it a higher % of accuracy to make it truly safe. It is usually not a prob esp during day flights but at night even on a clear one, you may just miss seeing something you should. It's not anyone's fault per se but the system they use. I don't even think it's about too many flights contributing to this tragedy it's just the process is not safe.

Too many flights in is what caused the confused. The helicopter pilot had a visual on A plane, but not THE Plane that the ATC was warning him about.

It’s night, twinkling lights everywhere in a city, 9pm of courses there’s a queue of planes positioned to land. Huge risk you see one and not THE immediate one.