2nd grade teacher who placed lots of students in AAP. AMA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I have not responded because most of the recent posters have no idea what they aretalking about. There were very few minorities (AA or Latinx) in my classes. The only AA student I had in my last three years did get into AAP and I strongly supported that child. Most of my Asian kids did get into AAP and if they had demonstrated gifted behaviors I supported them. The twi instances of kids with high CoGATS and low GBRs were both upper middle class whites. I myself am not originally from the U.S. and have no inherent biases. I solely looked for kids who evidenced gifted behaviors or appeared as if they would be successful in AAP. GBRs are based on observed behaviors. Students who do nothing in class (orally or on paper), get mostly 4s and have high standardized test scores do not demonstrate gifted behaviors and were given low GBRs by me. Interestingly, almost all of the students I had that made AAP with high test scores and low GBRs had a hard time in AAP. I followed up on my students through sixth grade to see how they were doing. Many of the high test score kids who I had given low GBRs to because they never demonstrated evidence of giftedness did poorly and demonstrated nothing to their later teachers that showed they belonged in AAP. a few did but those that didn’t were generallynot motivated. They may have been very intelligent based on test scores but they never demonstrated anything to merit AAP. Less intelligent (based on scores) kids who were motivated and worked hard did much better through 6th grade..

High test scores and all 4s in 2nd grade is not "nothing", OP. Neither is it in in 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th grade.

And AAP is not just Advanced Academics, it is also the FCPS gifted program. Gifted programs are, by definition, for highly intelligent kids, even (or especially) unmotivated highly intelligent kids. You know this. You just want to ignore it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I have not responded because most of the recent posters have no idea what they aretalking about. There were very few minorities (AA or Latinx) in my classes. The only AA student I had in my last three years did get into AAP and I strongly supported that child. Most of my Asian kids did get into AAP and if they had demonstrated gifted behaviors I supported them. The twi instances of kids with high CoGATS and low GBRs were both upper middle class whites. I myself am not originally from the U.S. and have no inherent biases. I solely looked for kids who evidenced gifted behaviors or appeared as if they would be successful in AAP. GBRs are based on observed behaviors. Students who do nothing in class (orally or on paper), get mostly 4s and have high standardized test scores do not demonstrate gifted behaviors and were given low GBRs by me. Interestingly, almost all of the students I had that made AAP with high test scores and low GBRs had a hard time in AAP. I followed up on my students through sixth grade to see how they were doing. Many of the high test score kids who I had given low GBRs to because they never demonstrated evidence of giftedness did poorly and demonstrated nothing to their later teachers that showed they belonged in AAP. a few did but those that didn’t were generallynot motivated. They may have been very intelligent based on test scores but they never demonstrated anything to merit AAP. Less intelligent (based on scores) kids who were motivated and worked hard did much better through 6th grade..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I have not responded because most of the recent posters have no idea what they aretalking about. There were very few minorities (AA or Latinx) in my classes. The only AA student I had in my last three years did get into AAP and I strongly supported that child. Most of my Asian kids did get into AAP and if they had demonstrated gifted behaviors I supported them. The twi instances of kids with high CoGATS and low GBRs were both upper middle class whites. I myself am not originally from the U.S. and have no inherent biases. I solely looked for kids who evidenced gifted behaviors or appeared as if they would be successful in AAP. GBRs are based on observed behaviors. Students who do nothing in class (orally or on paper), get mostly 4s and have high standardized test scores do not demonstrate gifted behaviors and were given low GBRs by me. Interestingly, almost all of the students I had that made AAP with high test scores and low GBRs had a hard time in AAP. I followed up on my students through sixth grade to see how they were doing. Many of the high test score kids who I had given low GBRs to because they never demonstrated evidence of giftedness did poorly and demonstrated nothing to their later teachers that showed they belonged in AAP. a few did but those that didn’t were generallynot motivated. They may have been very intelligent based on test scores but they never demonstrated anything to merit AAP. Less intelligent (based on scores) kids who were motivated and worked hard did much better through 6th grade..

High test scores and all 4s in 2nd grade is not "nothing", OP. Neither is it in in 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th grade.

And AAP is not just Advanced Academics, it is also the FCPS gifted program. Gifted programs are, by definition, for highly intelligent kids, even (or especially) unmotivated highly intelligent kids. You know this. You just want to ignore it.

DP. I agree. It's inconsistent that a student getting mostly 4s in second grade is doing nothing orally or on paper. Every subject has an effort category too. Also, those kids who are highly gifted (likely to be kids testing very high) often learn differently and may be motivated differently. That is the whole point of putting them in the AAP program to foster their growth.

Separately, using OP's analogy, if less intelligent kids (based on scores) were motivated and worked hard, wouldn't the two kids who got high scores but got rejected also been motivated to work hard had they got in? They studied and got 4s in second grade, right? Why shouldn't those kids who have shown intelligence by an observable/numeric metric be denied the opportunity of being AAP over kids who showed high marks by a subjective metric?

I understand that OP was using his/her own assessment that he/she thought was best. But, his/her explanation shows why GBRS is not a good metric for determining who gets into AAP.

[Anonymous]

OP said: "Students who do nothing in class (orally or on paper), get mostly 4s and have high standardized test scores do not demonstrate gifted behaviors and were given low GBRs by me."

OP, if kids are doing nothing in class, orally or on paper, but still getting 4s, you need to fix your grading policies. My kids got mixes of 3s and 4s, and that is with getting nearly perfect scores on every test, being in the highest groups, and completing all assigned work. The 2nd grade teacher even had rubrics for all of the projects and writing work.

Every teacher my kids have had would be giving 2s to the kids who aced all of the tests but completed none of the assigned work or completed it poorly.

If kids aren't turning in math homework, aren't doing any of the projects, aren't turning in their creative writing stories, aren't turning in their history biographies, etc., then why are you giving them 4s? If they are turning them in and doing a decent job with them, then how can you justify insisting that they're "doing nothing?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I have not responded because most of the recent posters have no idea what they aretalking about. There were very few minorities (AA or Latinx) in my classes. The only AA student I had in my last three years did get into AAP and I strongly supported that child. Most of my Asian kids did get into AAP and if they had demonstrated gifted behaviors I supported them. The twi instances of kids with high CoGATS and low GBRs were both upper middle class whites. I myself am not originally from the U.S. and have no inherent biases. I solely looked for kids who evidenced gifted behaviors or appeared as if they would be successful in AAP. GBRs are based on observed behaviors. Students who do nothing in class (orally or on paper), get mostly 4s and have high standardized test scores do not demonstrate gifted behaviors and were given low GBRs by me. Interestingly, almost all of the students I had that made AAP with high test scores and low GBRs had a hard time in AAP. I followed up on my students through sixth grade to see how they were doing. Many of the high test score kids who I had given low GBRs to because they never demonstrated evidence of giftedness did poorly and demonstrated nothing to their later teachers that showed they belonged in AAP. a few did but those that didn’t were generallynot motivated. They may have been very intelligent based on test scores but they never demonstrated anything to merit AAP. Less intelligent (based on scores) kids who were motivated and worked hard did much better through 6th grade..

The bolded demonstrates the bias against introverted or shy children and proves what a PP was saying earlier about how AAP is not a gifted and talented program, but rather a leadership program for the loud kids.

[Anonymous]

A shy kid should be able to demonstrate their knowledge on paper. DS GBRS actually called out that he was on grade level for writing but gave verbal answers that were advanced. The Teachers notice these things. Even with that, DS's work samples showed the sentences he wrote to explain how he approached answering the logic puzzle he was given. He was not the kid to raise his hands but would answer questions when called on, he has greatly improved in this area.

I would suspect that kids with high test scores and 4s but low GBRS had lower effort scores as well. That is something parents should be cueing on. If your kid is coming home with 2's on their efforts scores but good grades, something is happening and you should be talking to the Teacher. Find out what they are seeing and then work with your child to address that. It is no different then seeing a 2 in an academic subject and asking the Teacher what is going on and working to correct those issues.

I get that you don't like it but this is not the first time people have posted things all these lines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A shy kid should be able to demonstrate their knowledge on paper. DS GBRS actually called out that he was on grade level for writing but gave verbal answers that were advanced. The Teachers notice these things. Even with that, DS's work samples showed the sentences he wrote to explain how he approached answering the logic puzzle he was given. He was not the kid to raise his hands but would answer questions when called on, he has greatly improved in this area.

I would suspect that kids with high test scores and 4s but low GBRS had lower effort scores as well. That is something parents should be cueing on. If your kid is coming home with 2's on their efforts scores but good grades, something is happening and you should be talking to the Teacher. Find out what they are seeing and then work with your child to address that. It is no different then seeing a 2 in an academic subject and asking the Teacher what is going on and working to correct those issues.

I get that you don't like it but this is not the first time people have posted things all these lines.

I think you are missing the point that OP is saying that the kids were getting mostly 4s on the report card. Not low 2 for effort. OP seems to be discounting effort all together and looking for demonstrated creativity (or what she perceives to be creativity).

Also, what you are not considering is that schools do not give out GBRS ratings unless a parent asks for them specifically and only after the AAP screenings are completed. There isn't time to address the GBRS "issues" until the next year. Parents who are not in the know may not even get GBRS ratings at all.

[Anonymous]

OP seems to have followed the GBRS process closely. It relies on the teacher to assess certain things. Those do not include test scores. Am I right?

[Anonymous]

Yes, though you expect most criteria on GBRS scale to be correlated to test scores... but not in an absolute way. Entirely possible someone could do well on standardized tests but score poorly on GBRS... it should be less frequent than scoring high on both, but shouldn't be some unusual anomaly either.

[Anonymous]

If a kid is above grade level per DRA and is getting 4s in all academic grades, then the kid should get either a 3 or 4 in the first two GBRS categories.

I would expect a gifted kid who aces all tests but is a mushroom in class to get something like a 4/3/1/1 and not the 1/1/1/1 OP gave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP seems to have followed the GBRS process closely. It relies on the teacher to assess certain things. Those do not include test scores. Am I right?

I disagree. OP's criteria seems to be creativity only. While that one factor, others are ability to learn, application of knowledge and motivation to succeed. If a student is studying hard, knows the answers and getting 4s on the report card, that should show up as a positive assessment for three of the GBRS factors. But, based on her low rating of 4 GBRS, she is not giving the student credit for those abilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If a kid is above grade level per DRA and is getting 4s in all academic grades, then the kid should get either a 3 or 4 in the first two GBRS categories.

I would expect a gifted kid who aces all tests but is a mushroom in class to get something like a 4/3/1/1 and not the 1/1/1/1 OP gave.

GBRS is covering a much broader range of things than test scores / grade level / performance... you can do well on those fronts and still only occasionally (or rarely):
- Exhibit exceptional memory
- Display persistent, intense focus on one or more topics
- Be highly reflective and/or sensitive to his/her environment
- Adapt readily to new cultures
- Learn skills independently and makes connections without formal instruction
etc.

Entirely possible to get a 1 in this category but still ace exams and be above grade level. Teacher calls on the student in class to answer a fact question of some material they've covered and the student can't remember / doesn't speak up / wasn't paying attention... that isn't displaying exceptional memory, no matter how well the ultimately retain the information and memorize it come test time. At best that gets them a 2... except all the other criteria listed could likewise pull them back down to a 1.

[Anonymous]

This is the flaw with GBRS. It's entirely possible for a child who is gifted but completely disengaged to get a very low GBRS. Since GBRS is now the end all and be all, those kids won't get into AAP, despite being the kids who need gifted programming the most.

The high achieving, high GBRS kids will bloom wherever they're planted. The unengaged gifted kids are the ones who are demonstrating that their needs can't be met in gen ed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the flaw with GBRS. It's entirely possible for a child who is gifted but completely disengaged to get a very low GBRS. Since GBRS is now the end all and be all, those kids won't get into AAP, despite being the kids who need gifted programming the most.

The high achieving, high GBRS kids will bloom wherever they're planted. The unengaged gifted kids are the ones who are demonstrating that their needs can't be met in gen ed.

Anything's possible. But it sounds like OP was doing the GBRS wrong, which is probably more common and more problematic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the flaw with GBRS. It's entirely possible for a child who is gifted but completely disengaged to get a very low GBRS. Since GBRS is now the end all and be all, those kids won't get into AAP, despite being the kids who need gifted programming the most.

The high achieving, high GBRS kids will bloom wherever they're planted. The unengaged gifted kids are the ones who are demonstrating that their needs can't be met in gen ed.

Anything's possible. But it sounds like OP was doing the GBRS wrong, which is probably more common and more problematic.

No. It sounds like the OP was not doing the GBRS the way you wanted them done and your child wasn't accepted into AAP.