Please be honest- How much, if at all, does full pay help?

[Anonymous]

Counselors can tell wealth based upon zip code and schools attended, especially if you are applying from a private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of good answers.

Another way to look at it is what size of donation is required to be prioritized for admission.

Harvard is 5-10 mil.
UVA is probably 500K-1 mil (guess).
At need aware school, a small donation will get you prioritized.

Prioritized may not be the right work, but it is meant to mean if you meet the minimum expected quals. So, at Harvard, with a 10 mil donation, a 4.5 GPA with 1500 SATs would probably get it. 3.5 would not.

You put too much emphasis on GPAs. Otherwise, that's about right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of good answers.

Another way to look at it is what size of donation is required to be prioritized for admission.

Harvard is 5-10 mil.
UVA is probably 500K-1 mil (guess).
At need aware school, a small donation will get you prioritized.

Prioritized may not be the right work, but it is meant to mean if you meet the minimum expected quals. So, at Harvard, with a 10 mil donation, a 4.5 GPA with 1500 SATs would probably get it. 3.5 would not.

You put too much emphasis on GPAs. Otherwise, that's about right.

Oh, and just anybody's $5K check won't due. Like applying to a country club it is $5K and being on a VIP's sponsor list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of good answers.

Another way to look at it is what size of donation is required to be prioritized for admission.

Harvard is 5-10 mil.
UVA is probably 500K-1 mil (guess).
At need aware school, a small donation will get you prioritized.

Prioritized may not be the right work, but it is meant to mean if you meet the minimum expected quals. So, at Harvard, with a 10 mil donation, a 4.5 GPA with 1500 SATs would probably get it. 3.5 would not.

You put too much emphasis on GPAs. Otherwise, that's about right.

Oh, and just anybody's $5K check won't due. Like applying to a country club it is $5K and being on a VIP's sponsor list.

All of this sub-discussion in the thread, starting with "Harvard is 5-10 mil.", is complete conjecture with no foundation in fact. It's also useless to the OP's original question intent and should stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

LOL you guys are funny.

One one hand you say they can easily choose students by zip codes and median incomes, even though it would be dishonest for them to do so. But they can’t read a detailed report and a full transcript with counselor recommendations tell the value of a GPA at one of the high schools they work with every single day.

Wow these adcoms are quite inept except when they are being devious; but then they are Lex Luthors.

They can choose between students by zip, and this is all a favored status for a given HS will ever amount to end of the day. Anyone who says HS reputation plays a role has no way of knowing how ability to pay factors in.

Yes they DO have a way, and they know exactly how it figures in.

According to their need blind/aware policy. Exactly.

If they are need aware, they don't need to calculate the median income per zip code. They look at the financial data submitted.

If they are need blind, they do not consider it. At all.

End period.

There are only about 100 schools that claim to be need blind, presumably OP isn’t asking about those, and that’s not the topic at hand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

LOL you guys are funny.

One one hand you say they can easily choose students by zip codes and median incomes, even though it would be dishonest for them to do so. But they can’t read a detailed report and a full transcript with counselor recommendations tell the value of a GPA at one of the high schools they work with every single day.

Wow these adcoms are quite inept except when they are being devious; but then they are Lex Luthors.

They can choose between students by zip, and this is all a favored status for a given HS will ever amount to end of the day. Anyone who says HS reputation plays a role has no way of knowing how ability to pay factors in.

Yes they DO have a way, and they know exactly how it figures in.

According to their need blind/aware policy. Exactly.

If they are need aware, they don't need to calculate the median income per zip code. They look at the financial data submitted.

If they are need blind, they do not consider it. At all.

End period.

There are only about 100 schools that claim to be need blind, presumably OP isn’t asking about those, and that’s not the topic at hand.

I don't know what you mean by "presumably". Why "presume" anything? It's a shockingly simple answer regardless:

If they are need aware, it matters.

If they are need blind, it doesn't.

[Anonymous]

Except it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Except it does.

Prove it or shut up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Except it does.

Prove it or shut up.

I am the poster of the above and I would like to re-phrase this:

You have no evidence of your assertion, therefore there is no reason to believe it is true. Present evidence or your assertion is dismissed.

Sorry for momentary rudeness but this kind of baseless fearmongering drives me crazy. Apologies for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many colleges/universities, even highly selective ones, love international students (with the right test scores of course) because they pay full-tuition and then some. Can't tell me even though they are "need blind", application reviewers and read between the lines, like where the kids live (zip code which give clues on income), parent education level/profession, public or private schools (they know that families that live in certain zip codes and attend the big 3 in DC private are most likely paying full tuition and will likely pay full at their school). Especially with COVID, many schools (maybe not the top 20) have to seriously look at their financial health.

"Need Blind" is not truly so blind, there are other factors schools can look at to gather info on potential revenue.

"Can't tell" you? Despite 100% consistent assertions to the contrary, and not a single bit of evidence to support your claim, including not one confession from the thousands of former need-blind adcoms, a few dozen of whom have written tell-all books?

Clearly no one can tell you.

But we can tell everyone else. Schools that claim to be need blind in admissions are, in fact, need blind in admissions.

DP. This is form over substance. These colleges are “need blind,” yet somehow, all of these schools end up with admissions classes that are far wealthier than the general population. The very most competitive schools can be “need blind” because they are very rich (Harvard) and know that college acceptance criteria favors the wealthy, so that (along with very generous policies regarding admissions of legacies) will guarantee a relatively wealthy student body (and low, and behold, it always does). So, while they can say they don’t go looking for rich people, the rich people come to them in large enough numbers that it’s not an issue.

The colleges a tier below that have to rely on acceptance criteria favoring the rich, and when it doesn’t to the extent that it affects their solvency, they quietly become need aware (Carleton). There has been much discussion on higher Ed Boards and publications regarding how many colleges can afford to take this approach in a time when revenue is way down due to covid (sports, dorms, dining). Not to mention the loss of full pay foreign students. Like many on this board, I’ve been the recipient of pleas from my usually very well-funded alma mater for increased donations to cover the shortfall. What will they do if the alumni don’t cover it? There were quite a few stories last spring regarding people getting calls from normally highly competitive colleges offering spots off the wait list under the condition that no financial aid would be available. Sounds to me like a clever way to ensure a given number of full pay students without technically abandoning the “need blind” promise. These colleges will find a way to pay the bills, and I suspect that they aren’t going to advertise it as a change of policy when they do.

You have typed a lot of words here. Despite their number they seem to agree that need blind colleges are in fact need blind so no applicant should be afraid to ask for financial aid when applying to them.

No one is helped by anecdotes that begin “There were quite a few stories...” That is the kind of conspiracy thinking that is poisoning this country. Let’s deal in facts please.

Lots of words that you apparently didn’t bother to read, or understand.

I thought about trying to explain it in smaller words, but you clearly don’t have any internet in thoughts that challenge your preconceptions.

However, do you have evidence that people who reported much increased wait list activity last year — not just on this board were lying?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/getting-into-college-just-got-easier-if-your-kid-is-wait-listed

“I don’t think they would be calling me to say I didn’t get in,” said Anderson. She received an offer that day from the liberal arts college and will attend this fall.

Some of her classmates also got off waitlists at highly selective colleges, said Nancy Beane, a college counselor at the Westminster School in Atlanta for almost 30 years.

“We saw more activity on the waitlist this year than we usually see,” Beane said.

DeGreeff said the biggest beneficiaries of the waitlist thaw are those who can afford to pay full tuition.

“In terms of access and accessibility, that’s the heartbreaking part of it,” he said.



This article makes my point — that a handful “ultra elite” schools can be “truly need blind,” but many other selective schools are using their wait lists to bring in full pay students:

https://www.insider.com/colleges-using-waitlists-during-coronavirus-pandemic-2020-5

Colleges' finances, too, are being impacted. The federal government's Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act — or CARES Act — allocated nearly $14 billion to help colleges and universities stay afloat during the pandemic, but many schools say they're facing hundreds of millions of dollars in losses due to campus closures.

Casey Near, a counselor with CollegeWise, a college admissions counseling organization, told Insider that because of this, wealthier families will benefit most from schools dipping into their waitlists.

"Kids coming off the waitlists are oftentimes kids who can pay," Near told Insider. "It's not to say it's somehow easier to get into these schools, but it's easier for a very small sliver of students."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/us/coronavirus-college-enrollment.html

As they absorb signs of declining enrollment, colleges are preparing for more revenue losses and spending cuts. Like many schools, the University of California, San Diego has already paused three construction projects and imposed a partial hiring freeze.

“We’ve promised no layoffs until June 30,” said Pradeep Khosla, the chancellor. But the real impact of the virus could be felt at the end of September, when the university’s fall term begins and students must put down tuition money, rather than just deposits.

“That’s when the rubber will meet the road,” he said.

Most colleges would prefer not to take that chance, which is why they are offering more students the opportunity to attend, hoping to meet enrollment targets and keep tuition rolling in.



And, related, this article has an interesting list of the % of international students at each college. International students were 40% of the Carnegie-Mellon student body? That’s a lot of full-price tuition to replace.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2020/03/22/coronavirus-silver-lining-easier-to-get-into-many-top-colleges/?sh=3229901c5930

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many colleges/universities, even highly selective ones, love international students (with the right test scores of course) because they pay full-tuition and then some. Can't tell me even though they are "need blind", application reviewers and read between the lines, like where the kids live (zip code which give clues on income), parent education level/profession, public or private schools (they know that families that live in certain zip codes and attend the big 3 in DC private are most likely paying full tuition and will likely pay full at their school). Especially with COVID, many schools (maybe not the top 20) have to seriously look at their financial health.

"Need Blind" is not truly so blind, there are other factors schools can look at to gather info on potential revenue.

"Can't tell" you? Despite 100% consistent assertions to the contrary, and not a single bit of evidence to support your claim, including not one confession from the thousands of former need-blind adcoms, a few dozen of whom have written tell-all books?

Clearly no one can tell you.

But we can tell everyone else. Schools that claim to be need blind in admissions are, in fact, need blind in admissions.

DP. This is form over substance. These colleges are “need blind,” yet somehow, all of these schools end up with admissions classes that are far wealthier than the general population. The very most competitive schools can be “need blind” because they are very rich (Harvard) and know that college acceptance criteria favors the wealthy, so that (along with very generous policies regarding admissions of legacies) will guarantee a relatively wealthy student body (and low, and behold, it always does). So, while they can say they don’t go looking for rich people, the rich people come to them in large enough numbers that it’s not an issue.

The colleges a tier below that have to rely on acceptance criteria favoring the rich, and when it doesn’t to the extent that it affects their solvency, they quietly become need aware (Carleton). There has been much discussion on higher Ed Boards and publications regarding how many colleges can afford to take this approach in a time when revenue is way down due to covid (sports, dorms, dining). Not to mention the loss of full pay foreign students. Like many on this board, I’ve been the recipient of pleas from my usually very well-funded alma mater for increased donations to cover the shortfall. What will they do if the alumni don’t cover it? There were quite a few stories last spring regarding people getting calls from normally highly competitive colleges offering spots off the wait list under the condition that no financial aid would be available. Sounds to me like a clever way to ensure a given number of full pay students without technically abandoning the “need blind” promise. These colleges will find a way to pay the bills, and I suspect that they aren’t going to advertise it as a change of policy when they do.

You have typed a lot of words here. Despite their number they seem to agree that need blind colleges are in fact need blind so no applicant should be afraid to ask for financial aid when applying to them.

No one is helped by anecdotes that begin “There were quite a few stories...” That is the kind of conspiracy thinking that is poisoning this country. Let’s deal in facts please.

Lots of words that you apparently didn’t bother to read, or understand.

I thought about trying to explain it in smaller words, but you clearly don’t have any internet in thoughts that challenge your preconceptions.

However, do you have evidence that people who reported much increased wait list activity last year — not just on this board were lying?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/getting-into-college-just-got-easier-if-your-kid-is-wait-listed

“I don’t think they would be calling me to say I didn’t get in,” said Anderson. She received an offer that day from the liberal arts college and will attend this fall.

Some of her classmates also got off waitlists at highly selective colleges, said Nancy Beane, a college counselor at the Westminster School in Atlanta for almost 30 years.

“We saw more activity on the waitlist this year than we usually see,” Beane said.

DeGreeff said the biggest beneficiaries of the waitlist thaw are those who can afford to pay full tuition.

“In terms of access and accessibility, that’s the heartbreaking part of it,” he said.



This article makes my point — that a handful “ultra elite” schools can be “truly need blind,” but many other selective schools are using their wait lists to bring in full pay students:

https://www.insider.com/colleges-using-waitlists-during-coronavirus-pandemic-2020-5

Colleges' finances, too, are being impacted. The federal government's Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act — or CARES Act — allocated nearly $14 billion to help colleges and universities stay afloat during the pandemic, but many schools say they're facing hundreds of millions of dollars in losses due to campus closures.

Casey Near, a counselor with CollegeWise, a college admissions counseling organization, told Insider that because of this, wealthier families will benefit most from schools dipping into their waitlists.

"Kids coming off the waitlists are oftentimes kids who can pay," Near told Insider. "It's not to say it's somehow easier to get into these schools, but it's easier for a very small sliver of students."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/us/coronavirus-college-enrollment.html

As they absorb signs of declining enrollment, colleges are preparing for more revenue losses and spending cuts. Like many schools, the University of California, San Diego has already paused three construction projects and imposed a partial hiring freeze.

“We’ve promised no layoffs until June 30,” said Pradeep Khosla, the chancellor. But the real impact of the virus could be felt at the end of September, when the university’s fall term begins and students must put down tuition money, rather than just deposits.

“That’s when the rubber will meet the road,” he said.

Most colleges would prefer not to take that chance, which is why they are offering more students the opportunity to attend, hoping to meet enrollment targets and keep tuition rolling in.



And, related, this article has an interesting list of the % of international students at each college. International students were 40% of the Carnegie-Mellon student body? That’s a lot of full-price tuition to replace.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2020/03/22/coronavirus-silver-lining-easier-to-get-into-many-top-colleges/?sh=3229901c5930

Lots of words again. Even more! None of which dispute the facts one single bit. It matters at need aware colleges. It doesn't at need blind colleges.

Your statement that "Sounds to me like a clever way to ensure a given number of full pay students without technically abandoning the “need blind” promise remains unproved.

Here, again, is the list of need blind colleges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission

Which one of those are admitting students based on need other than the stated policy on this list? This year or any other year? Please answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many colleges/universities, even highly selective ones, love international students (with the right test scores of course) because they pay full-tuition and then some. Can't tell me even though they are "need blind", application reviewers and read between the lines, like where the kids live (zip code which give clues on income), parent education level/profession, public or private schools (they know that families that live in certain zip codes and attend the big 3 in DC private are most likely paying full tuition and will likely pay full at their school). Especially with COVID, many schools (maybe not the top 20) have to seriously look at their financial health.

"Need Blind" is not truly so blind, there are other factors schools can look at to gather info on potential revenue.

"Can't tell" you? Despite 100% consistent assertions to the contrary, and not a single bit of evidence to support your claim, including not one confession from the thousands of former need-blind adcoms, a few dozen of whom have written tell-all books?

Clearly no one can tell you.

But we can tell everyone else. Schools that claim to be need blind in admissions are, in fact, need blind in admissions.

DP. This is form over substance. These colleges are “need blind,” yet somehow, all of these schools end up with admissions classes that are far wealthier than the general population. The very most competitive schools can be “need blind” because they are very rich (Harvard) and know that college acceptance criteria favors the wealthy, so that (along with very generous policies regarding admissions of legacies) will guarantee a relatively wealthy student body (and low, and behold, it always does). So, while they can say they don’t go looking for rich people, the rich people come to them in large enough numbers that it’s not an issue.

The colleges a tier below that have to rely on acceptance criteria favoring the rich, and when it doesn’t to the extent that it affects their solvency, they quietly become need aware (Carleton). There has been much discussion on higher Ed Boards and publications regarding how many colleges can afford to take this approach in a time when revenue is way down due to covid (sports, dorms, dining). Not to mention the loss of full pay foreign students. Like many on this board, I’ve been the recipient of pleas from my usually very well-funded alma mater for increased donations to cover the shortfall. What will they do if the alumni don’t cover it? There were quite a few stories last spring regarding people getting calls from normally highly competitive colleges offering spots off the wait list under the condition that no financial aid would be available. Sounds to me like a clever way to ensure a given number of full pay students without technically abandoning the “need blind” promise. These colleges will find a way to pay the bills, and I suspect that they aren’t going to advertise it as a change of policy when they do.

You have typed a lot of words here. Despite their number they seem to agree that need blind colleges are in fact need blind so no applicant should be afraid to ask for financial aid when applying to them.

No one is helped by anecdotes that begin “There were quite a few stories...” That is the kind of conspiracy thinking that is poisoning this country. Let’s deal in facts please.

Lots of words that you apparently didn’t bother to read, or understand.

I thought about trying to explain it in smaller words, but you clearly don’t have any internet in thoughts that challenge your preconceptions.

However, do you have evidence that people who reported much increased wait list activity last year — not just on this board were lying?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/getting-into-college-just-got-easier-if-your-kid-is-wait-listed

“I don’t think they would be calling me to say I didn’t get in,” said Anderson. She received an offer that day from the liberal arts college and will attend this fall.

Some of her classmates also got off waitlists at highly selective colleges, said Nancy Beane, a college counselor at the Westminster School in Atlanta for almost 30 years.

“We saw more activity on the waitlist this year than we usually see,” Beane said.

DeGreeff said the biggest beneficiaries of the waitlist thaw are those who can afford to pay full tuition.

“In terms of access and accessibility, that’s the heartbreaking part of it,” he said.



This article makes my point — that a handful “ultra elite” schools can be “truly need blind,” but many other selective schools are using their wait lists to bring in full pay students:

https://www.insider.com/colleges-using-waitlists-during-coronavirus-pandemic-2020-5

Colleges' finances, too, are being impacted. The federal government's Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act — or CARES Act — allocated nearly $14 billion to help colleges and universities stay afloat during the pandemic, but many schools say they're facing hundreds of millions of dollars in losses due to campus closures.

Casey Near, a counselor with CollegeWise, a college admissions counseling organization, told Insider that because of this, wealthier families will benefit most from schools dipping into their waitlists.

"Kids coming off the waitlists are oftentimes kids who can pay," Near told Insider. "It's not to say it's somehow easier to get into these schools, but it's easier for a very small sliver of students."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/us/coronavirus-college-enrollment.html

As they absorb signs of declining enrollment, colleges are preparing for more revenue losses and spending cuts. Like many schools, the University of California, San Diego has already paused three construction projects and imposed a partial hiring freeze.

“We’ve promised no layoffs until June 30,” said Pradeep Khosla, the chancellor. But the real impact of the virus could be felt at the end of September, when the university’s fall term begins and students must put down tuition money, rather than just deposits.

“That’s when the rubber will meet the road,” he said.

Most colleges would prefer not to take that chance, which is why they are offering more students the opportunity to attend, hoping to meet enrollment targets and keep tuition rolling in.



And, related, this article has an interesting list of the % of international students at each college. International students were 40% of the Carnegie-Mellon student body? That’s a lot of full-price tuition to replace.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2020/03/22/coronavirus-silver-lining-easier-to-get-into-many-top-colleges/?sh=3229901c5930

Lots of words again. Even more! None of which dispute the facts one single bit. It matters at need aware colleges. It doesn't at need blind colleges.

Your statement that "Sounds to me like a clever way to ensure a given number of full pay students without technically abandoning the “need blind” promise remains unproved.

Here, again, is the list of need blind colleges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission

Which one of those are admitting students based on need other than the stated policy on this list? This year or any other year? Please answer.

Surely you know that “need blind” admissions policies don’t necessarily apply to wait lists? And it’s not always clearly stated.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/06/04/how-college-waitlists-work-against-low-income-students/?sh=1e6886462277

For students on the waitlist at a selective college, it’s almost guaranteed that financial need is being taken into account. While universities with large endowments are an exception, colleges become more aware of student’s financial need as they begin narrowing down their incoming class. Karen Crowley, a former admissions officer at the University of Pennsylvania, admitted rules can change even at need-blind schools when it comes to the waitlist. “It’s not an official practice,” she says, “but admissions officers are human.”

[Anonymous]

PP, you have been very patient with the rude "lots of words" poster, and what you write is true. Thanks for both the insights and the patience.

[Anonymous]

Not helpful at all at colleges ranked 1-50.

[Anonymous]

Sadly, I disagree. Perhaps full pay doesn’t apply to the top 12 but plenty in the top 50 are looking at full pay AND a competitive profile. One well regarded college counselor told me that those seeking financial aid need to have someone to “offer” a college. I do believe that especially this year.