How would British / UK schools stack up against American / US schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm not British but I would strongly recommend weighing the long term considerations if sending DC to a UK school (or anywhere abroad, really). It is significantly more difficult to secure employment back in the states compared to an equivalent U.S. college. While there is an air of momentary mystique when it comes to British schools, American employers will, at the end of the day, prefer hires from American schools barring specific technical skillsets. And, well, wages and COL are generally more favorable in the states, and with the uncertainty around Brexit, I'm less bullish on the UK in the mid- to long-term.

There's also a lingering, underlying question if you're American of, "Well, why did they decide to do their undergrad abroad in the first place?" Yes,

If DC wants to settle in the UK, then this is all a non-issue.

I know two Oxbridge grads. One is the daughter of a distant family friend. She didn't get into her first-choice schools here and ended up at Cambridge. She's done well for herself and last I heard is working as a banker in London, with no plans to return back. She seems happy, and the family is happy with their choice.

The other guy I know is Australian, graduated from Oxford, moved here. He spent over a year (!) unemployed and having a tough time finding a job but is now working in consulting, I believe. I have a hard time imagining a Harvard or Yale or Stanford grad finding it difficult to land a job, well, anywhere.

+1

Why is this the first time in this thread that someone is actually acknowledging this? This is the most important people should be paying attention to. Unless your plan is to live in the UK, it's really not advisable to attend university there. Masters and grad programs are maybe a different story.

There are consulting/finance companies that recruit internationally. But I definitely agree that outside of those careers (and perhaps a few others) it would be tough to work in the US afterwards.

For all fields, though? People on this thread are very focused on CS for some reason. What about the undergrad who earns a degree in economics or economics-politics-history from, say, LSE or Edinburgh or one of the Ox colleges. Top 10.

Is it really the case that this capable adult will not get a interview at State or Brookings? Does anyone have any data to actually back up their position that UK top grads compare less favorably in this scenario than a graduate of Duke or Northwestern or Amherst?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm not British but I would strongly recommend weighing the long term considerations if sending DC to a UK school (or anywhere abroad, really). It is significantly more difficult to secure employment back in the states compared to an equivalent U.S. college. While there is an air of momentary mystique when it comes to British schools, American employers will, at the end of the day, prefer hires from American schools barring specific technical skillsets. And, well, wages and COL are generally more favorable in the states, and with the uncertainty around Brexit, I'm less bullish on the UK in the mid- to long-term.

There's also a lingering, underlying question if you're American of, "Well, why did they decide to do their undergrad abroad in the first place?" Yes,

If DC wants to settle in the UK, then this is all a non-issue.

I know two Oxbridge grads. One is the daughter of a distant family friend. She didn't get into her first-choice schools here and ended up at Cambridge. She's done well for herself and last I heard is working as a banker in London, with no plans to return back. She seems happy, and the family is happy with their choice.

The other guy I know is Australian, graduated from Oxford, moved here. He spent over a year (!) unemployed and having a tough time finding a job but is now working in consulting, I believe. I have a hard time imagining a Harvard or Yale or Stanford grad finding it difficult to land a job, well, anywhere.

+1

Why is this the first time in this thread that someone is actually acknowledging this? This is the most important people should be paying attention to. Unless your plan is to live in the UK, it's really not advisable to attend university there. Masters and grad programs are maybe a different story.

There are consulting/finance companies that recruit internationally. But I definitely agree that outside of those careers (and perhaps a few others) it would be tough to work in the US afterwards.

For all fields, though? People on this thread are very focused on CS for some reason. What about the undergrad who earns a degree in economics or economics-politics-history from, say, LSE or Edinburgh or one of the Ox colleges. Top 10.

Is it really the case that this capable adult will not get a interview at State or Brookings? Does anyone have any data to actually back up their position that UK top grads compare less favorably in this scenario than a graduate of Duke or Northwestern or Amherst?

I agree, PP. I can’t see how that would be a problem. I can see it being easier if the graduate grew up in the US, but either way the grad of a top tier UK Uni would be competitive in the US with global companies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How familiar are you with the UK schools? Hard to compare as the American university system is its own beast and differs in some very significant ways from the British system. In general, American universities are much wealthier and at the elite level, much smaller. But in terms of prestige and academic quality (with an eye on research, since that tips the scale in global reputation tables) I'd very roughly put it somewhat like this.

HYPSM

Oxbridge = Columbia, Caltech

UCL/LSE/Imperial/St Andrews = Penn/Duke/Cornell/Northwestern/Chicago/Berkeley

KCL/Edinburgh/Durham = Hopkins/Brown/Dartmouth/Rice/UCLA/UMich

...or some iteration. There are way more elite U.S. schools, and they're typically much more selective.

Brit here. I agree that it’s hard to compare, and you also need ot factor in what your American student wants to do afterwards with their UK degree.
I think Oxbridge is as prestigious as HYS (not sure I’d include others but maybe).
The next rung down is Imperial, LSE, and possibly UCL depending on department. St Andrews isn’t up there at all - it’s popular with Americans but not particularly prestigious in the UK. Then after that come all of the Russell group, but exactly where they rank completely depends on the subject in question.

+1

[Anonymous]

OP, I think you've received enough about peer schools, so I will focus on some other differences. The UK educational system is designed around what they will need to know for their entrance exams. American students tend not to fare well on these entrance exams, so that's why AP tests are used instead for some school. As previously mentioned, UK universities admit by discipline (or department if you want a US equivalent). The system is much more subject focused with limited opportunity to take courses outside your discipline. Additionally, the program is for only three years (unless you attend some of the Scottish universities). Performance during the first year basically doesn't count. The second year and, most importantly, the third year determine the distinction received such as (first honors, 2:1) etc. It is also cheaper even when factoring international rates.

The U.S. system is more flexible and allows students to sample a wider range of subjects before focusing on a major. It is four years and more expensive on an annual basis as well.

[Anonymous]

PP here, the other thing is that the UK system is much more metrics/test-score focused and, as others have mentioned, doesn't take into account extracurricular and other activities that U.S. universities value. Much of the admissions in UK is determined by performance on the A-level exams. If students bomb it, their hopes of attending a particular university will be dashed. It's a lot more all-or-nothing than here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here, the other thing is that the UK system is much more metrics/test-score focused and, as others have mentioned, doesn't take into account extracurricular and other activities that U.S. universities value. Much of the admissions in UK is determined by performance on the A-level exams. If students bomb it, their hopes of attending a particular university will be dashed. It's a lot more all-or-nothing than here.

You can re-take A levels and reapply the following year - the old grades do not follow you around. But not everyone can afford to retake because it normally means paying for a college as they will have left school by that point. So it is really a means for the wealthy to get another shot at it.

When I took my A levels in 1987 my BF had bombed his in Chemistry, Math and Physics. CCD. He retook and got BBB and a place at UCL to study Economics. He is now a multi millionaire who has worked in the US / UK and Far East.

[Anonymous]

My DC studies in London. Had all 4-5 on APs , stellar SAT, amazing Capitol Hill internship at 15, other really great ECs that showed passion in program. Program required one below Oxbridge. Program is ranked top 20 in the world. The world is much more than our country. So, yes, a duke grad in same major vs. dc coming out of top 20 ranked program worldwide will make a difference when applying for a job beyond your zip code.

[Anonymous]

A lot of jobs here require more than a BA nowadays. And a first degree in the UK is no disadvantage if you are going to do a grad degree in the states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There isn't any emphasis on extracurricular or sports, and you have to be able to write well. The US system has many high stakes multiple choice exams like SAT/ACT but when you take exams in Britain at the secondary level there are more written exams.

That is such nonsense. A Varsity Oxbridge athlete here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There isn't any emphasis on extracurricular or sports, and you have to be able to write well. The US system has many high stakes multiple choice exams like SAT/ACT but when you take exams in Britain at the secondary level there are more written exams.

The caveat here is extracurriculars related to your intended course. You definitely should be able to have demonstrated interest in your subject matter through either extracurriculars or independent study. This will help when you go to write your personal statement.

There is a small part of UCAS application forms where you put in your EC info. It is very important. If you want to study medicine you had better have volunteer experience in a number of hospital or care related settings. If you want to study Veterinary Science, you need experience with - animals. Etc. If you want to study English at Cambridge, you'll need to have spent time doing work experience in a literary agency / a bookshop / a publishing house and you will need to demonstrate a history of writing for your school newspaper / have stories published etc.

EC content is CRUCIAL. Don't let anyone tell you anything different.

Not sure if you're an American or Brit writing this, and what your experience has been, but as a Brit who has been through this system and has friends now going through it with their kids and this just isn't true at all. You need to have something to put in the EC section, sure, but it's not CRUCIAL (in caps!) and it's nothing like the kind of things people do here where they spend years doing activities and getting into the top schools requires serious commitment to serious ECs. In my Cambridge interview to study English, we discussed literature in depth - and that was it. I almost think the prof who interviewed me would have found the idea of wanting to read English because I had done work experience at a publishers to be a little sordid. For Oxbridge: know and love your subject. For all other UK universities, have the grades and don't worry about very much else.

The most important thing is that the top ones won’t take many Americans at the undergrad level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone would agree that Oxford and Cambridge are beautiful but boring places, nothing to do with being a failure.

Also extracurriculars are just not a thing anywhere that isn't the US.

This is so stupid! Keep thinking that. I had on average 3 black tie events a week. Also bars are open in colleges for students. So we drink too. A lot. Starting at year 1. Please don’t come though. No one wants automaton overprogrammed American kids, particularly a certain kind, like who’s parents say DMV and keep posting on dcum

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think as much of engineers or computer science majors who haven’t done the gen eds. Everyone should be well rounded, even engineers. I mean have you see the way some people write?

They do their gen ed in HS, which is way more rigorous than here.

We just moved back from London. Excellent prep school; way more advanced curriculum, yet much nicer kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm not British but I would strongly recommend weighing the long term considerations if sending DC to a UK school (or anywhere abroad, really). It is significantly more difficult to secure employment back in the states compared to an equivalent U.S. college. While there is an air of momentary mystique when it comes to British schools, American employers will, at the end of the day, prefer hires from American schools barring specific technical skillsets. And, well, wages and COL are generally more favorable in the states, and with the uncertainty around Brexit, I'm less bullish on the UK in the mid- to long-term.

There's also a lingering, underlying question if you're American of, "Well, why did they decide to do their undergrad abroad in the first place?" Yes,

If DC wants to settle in the UK, then this is all a non-issue.

I know two Oxbridge grads. One is the daughter of a distant family friend. She didn't get into her first-choice schools here and ended up at Cambridge. She's done well for herself and last I heard is working as a banker in London, with no plans to return back. She seems happy, and the family is happy with their choice.

The other guy I know is Australian, graduated from Oxford, moved here. He spent over a year (!) unemployed and having a tough time finding a job but is now working in consulting, I believe. I have a hard time imagining a Harvard or Yale or Stanford grad finding it difficult to land a job, well, anywhere.

+1

Why is this the first time in this thread that someone is actually acknowledging this? This is the most important people should be paying attention to. Unless your plan is to live in the UK, it's really not advisable to attend university there. Masters and grad programs are maybe a different story.

There are consulting/finance companies that recruit internationally. But I definitely agree that outside of those careers (and perhaps a few others) it would be tough to work in the US afterwards.

For all fields, though? People on this thread are very focused on CS for some reason. What about the undergrad who earns a degree in economics or economics-politics-history from, say, LSE or Edinburgh or one of the Ox colleges. Top 10.

Is it really the case that this capable adult will not get a interview at State or Brookings? Does anyone have any data to actually back up their position that UK top grads compare less favorably in this scenario than a graduate of Duke or Northwestern or Amherst?

If you apply to Oxbridge make sure to put the biggest colleges in your top 3. If you don’t get in it’s not worth going. But you’re unlikely to get in anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many differences that start way before University.
The Brits start to specialize much earlier. Kids heading towards the sciences are taking nearly all science classes by the time they are in HS. The same is true for arts. I think of the MIT type kid as the equivalent pre university student here in this country.
Their sciences are a step ahead because of this.
The tutorial system takes the brightest young adults and gives them relatively intense attention (not for everyone). The idea is not to intimidate though.
They DO NOT CARE ABOUT EXTRA CURRICULAR activities.
Grades will be lower, they are mature enough to know that no one is perfect.
I have never met an incompetent person coming out of Oxbridge.
I have met some incompetent people who have come out of HYP.
Endowments different...socialization of education.

Please don't tell me you're saying UK secondary school students are equivalent to MIT students.

And isn't half of Parliament made up of Oxbridge grads? It feels to me like the incompetence is pretty self-evident.

Who are you people? It’s like they let you out of a closed country recently where you could only watch 1980s shows and maybe the Olsen twins movies. So lame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There isn't any emphasis on extracurricular or sports, and you have to be able to write well. The US system has many high stakes multiple choice exams like SAT/ACT but when you take exams in Britain at the secondary level there are more written exams.

The caveat here is extracurriculars related to your intended course. You definitely should be able to have demonstrated interest in your subject matter through either extracurriculars or independent study. This will help when you go to write your personal statement.

There is a small part of UCAS application forms where you put in your EC info. It is very important. If you want to study medicine you had better have volunteer experience in a number of hospital or care related settings. If you want to study Veterinary Science, you need experience with - animals. Etc. If you want to study English at Cambridge, you'll need to have spent time doing work experience in a literary agency / a bookshop / a publishing house and you will need to demonstrate a history of writing for your school newspaper / have stories published etc.

EC content is CRUCIAL. Don't let anyone tell you anything different.

Not sure if you're an American or Brit writing this, and what your experience has been, but as a Brit who has been through this system and has friends now going through it with their kids and this just isn't true at all. You need to have something to put in the EC section, sure, but it's not CRUCIAL (in caps!) and it's nothing like the kind of things people do here where they spend years doing activities and getting into the top schools requires serious commitment to serious ECs. In my Cambridge interview to study English, we discussed literature in depth - and that was it. I almost think the prof who interviewed me would have found the idea of wanting to read English because I had done work experience at a publishers to be a little sordid. For Oxbridge: know and love your subject. For all other UK universities, have the grades and don't worry about very much else.

I'm British. I attended university at York where I studied literature, Lancaster and Manchester, my sister atCambridge, my DH at Oxford, my parents Sheffield, my cousins Queen Mary's medical school and Manchester university.