Referees: Ask Us Anything

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do referees ref Hispanic kids differently than the other kids?

Btw ... we did not have this problem in EDP.

Just luck. Same refs in NCSL, CCL, NPL, etc as EDP. You can go get certified and the following week center ref a U16 EDP game.

then just luck. The old guy with the crazy white hair who refused to move more then 5 yards from midfield was a fixture in NCSL- haven't seen him yet in EDP

Exactly. I just figure EDP had different training for style.

There's no league-specific training. We're certified by U.S. Soccer.

(OK, Vienna's rec league requires a mentor meeting before your first game. Nothing new covered.)

I'm checking the list of available games from one (1) assignor: NCSL, CCL, DC United Academy (not sure if it's a league game or a friendly), Arlington's high school rec league, VSA's rec league, some rec leagues doing their own thing with SFL down, ECNL (that surprises me), and yes, EDP.

That assignor is also responsible for the Hunt Country Fall Classic and did the assignments for Battleground.

A different assignor did the WAGS Tournament and would've done the Herndon All-Star tournament if it hadn't been canceled. That assignor also has some CCL and EDP.

Want to know one really weird thing about EDP? While most payments are handled by a centralized payment management system, some EDP games pay cash on the field.

So if you see a ref taking a handout, no, that's not a bribe!

Okay, so why are Hispanic kids treated differently?

Why do you cheat on your taxes?

(OK, seriously - can you cite some examples? Particular types of incidents?)

I did once see a Hispanic ref who clearly had a racial bias toward a Black player. That was awkward.

Do you mean racial bias or sexual preference?

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do referees ref Hispanic kids differently than the other kids?

Btw ... we did not have this problem in EDP.

Just luck. Same refs in NCSL, CCL, NPL, etc as EDP. You can go get certified and the following week center ref a U16 EDP game.

Not “just luck” it was an issue at many, many games. I documented them at the time snd sent complaints.

I think maybe the training is lacking somewhere. You seem to have little understanding of the game.

Then go get certified is weak sauce. My 2 sons are certified and it’s an issue.

Maybe they only understand long ball soccer and not true possession.

Are you the OP?

No, I'm the OP.

You may see some of the same refs because of geography. I have 3-4 venues that are nearby.

But there's no inherent "understanding of the game" that's different if a game is reffed in Centreville instead of Annandale. We all get the same training. We all get the same desperate emails from ref assignors. If your sons sign up with those assignors, they'll get the emails as well. Depending on their age, they may not be eligible for every open game, but if they want to work this weekend, they can. I count more than 40 openings on Sunday.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how a ref would call things differently if that ref "only understood long ball soccer."

Some refs would compliment our team on their aggressive possession of the ball. Others acted like touching a player was a violation. In possession soccer there is a lot of close contact. With long ball it’s like kick it long and run.

We even had a hard time with parents that just didn’t understand you can use your body, it’s legal.

Teams also in more rural areas are more annoyed by Hispanic teams, lots of racist comments on the field. Some refs really understood, but the majority just treated the kids like they were thugs.

I know the assignor for one league but not EDP I would send her video clips of the issues.

I figured you had some inside conversations with other refs that might comment about certain teams.

I think it is fair all EDP refs do other leagues but I don’t think all NCSl refs do EDP .

Also had great refs in Super Y.

It was enough of an issue they would not assign our team to certain refs.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do referees ref Hispanic kids differently than the other kids?

Btw ... we did not have this problem in EDP.

Just luck. Same refs in NCSL, CCL, NPL, etc as EDP. You can go get certified and the following week center ref a U16 EDP game.

then just luck. The old guy with the crazy white hair who refused to move more then 5 yards from midfield was a fixture in NCSL- haven't seen him yet in EDP

Exactly. I just figure EDP had different training for style.

There's no league-specific training. We're certified by U.S. Soccer.

(OK, Vienna's rec league requires a mentor meeting before your first game. Nothing new covered.)

I'm checking the list of available games from one (1) assignor: NCSL, CCL, DC United Academy (not sure if it's a league game or a friendly), Arlington's high school rec league, VSA's rec league, some rec leagues doing their own thing with SFL down, ECNL (that surprises me), and yes, EDP.

That assignor is also responsible for the Hunt Country Fall Classic and did the assignments for Battleground.

A different assignor did the WAGS Tournament and would've done the Herndon All-Star tournament if it hadn't been canceled. That assignor also has some CCL and EDP.

Want to know one really weird thing about EDP? While most payments are handled by a centralized payment management system, some EDP games pay cash on the field.

So if you see a ref taking a handout, no, that's not a bribe!

Okay, so why are Hispanic kids treated differently?

Why do you cheat on your taxes?

(OK, seriously - can you cite some examples? Particular types of incidents?)

I did once see a Hispanic ref who clearly had a racial bias toward a Black player. That was awkward.

So you admit there is racial bias but you only saw it once snd it was a Hispanic ref?

No I don’t cheat on my taxes, do you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:2 refs for a u16 game, where do the refs position themselves and how do they determine the offensive responsibilities?

We had a game one ref was on field with usual responsibilities the other ref stayed on one side monitoring off sides and out of bounds etc but at half switched to the other end so the same team had a ref monitoring off sides while no one was monitoring the other team. Shouldn't the ref on the same side so they would monitor the other team? or should both refs been on the field but close enough to the sidelines to be able to make most of the calls?

It didn't impact the outcome of the game but certainty the number of off sides calls.

2 ref system has each ref take one half and they run opposite diagonals and call OOB and offsides for their half. They share foul calling duties with the ref closer to the play taking the lead.

[Anonymous]

Was playing indoor one time and I saw a middle eastern guy from the other team call the black ref the “n” word. Years ago. The ref hauled off and smacked the player and called the match. Amazing. Plus we were up by one goal so we won the league finals.

[Anonymous]

Two things that I struggle with.

There are obvious instances of players flopping for a call, especially a penalty or trying to draw a card. Do you not anticipate this and why not hand out more simulations?

How do you handle a missed call, especially one a major one that you've made and can't reverse?

I have seen referees get into more trouble doubling down on a bad call and letting the game get out of hand. I realize that you can't go back and fix the call. But they don't seem to realize the bad call has heightened the temperature of the game, especially with the team impacted.

Saw the worst example of this last week. Ref called a pass back to goalie that was not a pass back. Other team grabs the ball from the goalie and plays in into the net (I don't blame them) in the ensuing chaos. He runs over to the AR and then gives the goal.

Immediately, the game devolves. Instead of trying to calm the game, he just starts carding everyone on every sign of contact. Then sends off a kid for asking him a question and threatens to send off anyone else. Told everyone "you can't play the game without me." Finally he calls the game with 15 minutes and hightails it out to his car.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do referees ref Hispanic kids differently than the other kids?

Btw ... we did not have this problem in EDP.

Just luck. Same refs in NCSL, CCL, NPL, etc as EDP. You can go get certified and the following week center ref a U16 EDP game.

Not “just luck” it was an issue at many, many games. I documented them at the time snd sent complaints.

I think maybe the training is lacking somewhere. You seem to have little understanding of the game.

Then go get certified is weak sauce. My 2 sons are certified and it’s an issue.

Maybe they only understand long ball soccer and not true possession.

Are you the OP?

No, I'm the OP.

You may see some of the same refs because of geography. I have 3-4 venues that are nearby.

But there's no inherent "understanding of the game" that's different if a game is reffed in Centreville instead of Annandale. We all get the same training. We all get the same desperate emails from ref assignors. If your sons sign up with those assignors, they'll get the emails as well. Depending on their age, they may not be eligible for every open game, but if they want to work this weekend, they can. I count more than 40 openings on Sunday.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how a ref would call things differently if that ref "only understood long ball soccer."

Some refs would compliment our team on their aggressive possession of the ball. Others acted like touching a player was a violation. In possession soccer there is a lot of close contact. With long ball it’s like kick it long and run.

We even had a hard time with parents that just didn’t understand you can use your body, it’s legal.

Teams also in more rural areas are more annoyed by Hispanic teams, lots of racist comments on the field. Some refs really understood, but the majority just treated the kids like they were thugs.

I know the assignor for one league but not EDP I would send her video clips of the issues.

I figured you had some inside conversations with other refs that might comment about certain teams.

I think it is fair all EDP refs do other leagues but I don’t think all NCSl refs do EDP .

Also had great refs in Super Y.

It was enough of an issue they would not assign our team to certain refs.

I *think* EDP has multiple assignors.

Was the assignor you know Sharon Delpitch or Tarey Houston?

In any case -- there are no "EDP refs" and "NCSL refs." Again, we're not certified by a league. *Geography* might be a factor -- EDP reaches up the coast from here and generally hits the urban areas, so I'm guessing the "rural" team you're talking about must have been in NCSL. That wouldn't be a function of the league -- it would be a function of the fact that a ref you see in McLean isn't likely to go out to Clarke County or West Virginia.

In terms of possession -- I do see a problem with a lot of families that clearly aren't as knowledgeable about the game who don't understand shoulder-to-shoulder contact. At the same time, I see a lot of players trying to see what they can get away with -- how far can I extend that arm, when will that elbow be called, etc.

But yet again, that's not a function of leagues. It's not even necessarily an issue of skin color or ethnicity. The horror team I reffed recently was all Anglo except for one Black kid, and their coach said she didn't care if the other team "couldn't take it."

So you either are blind to it or just don’t want to admit it.

Oh well so much for ask anything.

Maybe do an anonymous one so you can be more transparent.

Cheers... see you in the pitch.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you admit there is racial bias but you only saw it once snd it was a Hispanic ref?

No I don’t cheat on my taxes, do you?

I've also seen it at Fairfax Sportsplex.

I haven't personally seen bias against Hispanic players. But there are a couple hundred refs in the area, so I'm sure someone out there has that bias.

Or, just maybe, the fouls they're calling are legit, and you just don't see it that way.

Have you ever reffed? Your perspective on the game changes when you're not just looking at your own kid and your own team.

I video the games and show them to the person who manages complaints.

I even had the assignor and a referee trainer attend a game to see for themselves.

So I don’t actually make the call.

There are other racist things ive have caught refs doing on camera and have reported them for that too.

I’m sure they were glad when my son finally went off to college, so I didn’t report it anymore.

We eventually got to a point where the assignor just hand picked refs for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two things that I struggle with.

There are obvious instances of players flopping for a call, especially a penalty or trying to draw a card. Do you not anticipate this and why not hand out more simulations?

How do you handle a missed call, especially one a major one that you've made and can't reverse?

I have seen referees get into more trouble doubling down on a bad call and letting the game get out of hand. I realize that you can't go back and fix the call. But they don't seem to realize the bad call has heightened the temperature of the game, especially with the team impacted.

Saw the worst example of this last week. Ref called a pass back to goalie that was not a pass back. Other team grabs the ball from the goalie and plays in into the net (I don't blame them) in the ensuing chaos. He runs over to the AR and then gives the goal.

Immediately, the game devolves. Instead of trying to calm the game, he just starts carding everyone on every sign of contact. Then sends off a kid for asking him a question and threatens to send off anyone else. Told everyone "you can't play the game without me." Finally he calls the game with 15 minutes and hightails it out to his car.

I don't want to dress the game you describe at the bottom - it sounds insane. But to your top two questions:

1. Flopping. The reality is, simulation isn't as common as you think, and very few kids can really pull it off. You may feel something was simulation because there was no contact or it wasn't (in your option) enough, or the defender "got the ball". By the laws of the game, the fact that a defender gets the ball, or that there was no contact doesn't mean there wasn't a foul. If a defender goes for the leg and the attacking player jumps over but then stumbles and falls, that's not simulation, that's a foul. Note that Law 12 very explicitly says "trips or attempts to trip". And yes, I recognize that there are times that a kid will simulate, but if it's a close call, you may see a ref call it based on the fact that the player has been committing multiple similar infractions. Remember, we can give a caution for "persistent offences", and there is no specific number of offenses to trigger that.

2. Bad/Missed calls. I've made them, every ref I know has made them. In general you try to just move on. I think trying to do a tit-for-tat always backfires. All you can do is try and not make any more mistakes. That said, we are human, and if we realize we blew a big call, and there's something that doesn't impact the safety of the players I am sure that refs might allow the team who was harmed by a bad call a smidge of leeway. I am not condoning it, nor should we as refs ever do it, but it probably happens subconciously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you admit there is racial bias but you only saw it once snd it was a Hispanic ref?

No I don’t cheat on my taxes, do you?

I've also seen it at Fairfax Sportsplex.

I haven't personally seen bias against Hispanic players. But there are a couple hundred refs in the area, so I'm sure someone out there has that bias.

Or, just maybe, the fouls they're calling are legit, and you just don't see it that way.

Have you ever reffed? Your perspective on the game changes when you're not just looking at your own kid and your own team.

I video the games and show them to the person who manages complaints.

I even had the assignor and a referee trainer attend a game to see for themselves.

So I don’t actually make the call.

There are other racist things ive have caught refs doing on camera and have reported them for that too.

I’m sure they were glad when my son finally went off to college, so I didn’t report it anymore.

We eventually got to a point where the assignor just hand picked refs for us.

I'm really sorry that happened to you, and that's never acceptable. I do my best to pay attention to how I or my AR or CR communicates with players no matter their race, but I am sure we can all do better. Frankly given the Ref shortage, it's really hard to get rid of the bad actors.

[Anonymous]

I'm not a ref but I don't understand how refs don't call more fouls when a defender say slide tackles, gets the ball but then takes out the player. THAT"S A FOUL! just because he got the ball doesn't erase the fact that the defender took out the other player. Can a ref explain this isn't called more?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do referees ref Hispanic kids differently than the other kids?

Because the kids are different. You just can't ref a hispanic kid the same way you can ref a white kid.

We actually have a different policy for black kids, chinese kids, and indian kids too. We save the most stringent rules for Vikings though - otherwise the game turns into some sort of medieval pillaging contest.

Not funny. I have actually seen strange calls for kids who are minorities of different kinds. Saw a ref who didn't call a single foul on kids who were clearly pushing and grabbing shirts but when a Chinese looking kid crashed into another kid and to me it looked like just that -a crash- the ref didn't even give a warning. It was a yellow card.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you admit there is racial bias but you only saw it once snd it was a Hispanic ref?

No I don’t cheat on my taxes, do you?

I've also seen it at Fairfax Sportsplex.

I haven't personally seen bias against Hispanic players. But there are a couple hundred refs in the area, so I'm sure someone out there has that bias.

Or, just maybe, the fouls they're calling are legit, and you just don't see it that way.

Have you ever reffed? Your perspective on the game changes when you're not just looking at your own kid and your own team.

I video the games and show them to the person who manages complaints.

I even had the assignor and a referee trainer attend a game to see for themselves.

So I don’t actually make the call.

There are other racist things ive have caught refs doing on camera and have reported them for that too.

I’m sure they were glad when my son finally went off to college, so I didn’t report it anymore.

We eventually got to a point where the assignor just hand picked refs for us.

What assignor was this? I can't imagine the two main assignors having time to do that.

What league was this?

So you either are blind to it or just don’t want to admit it.

Oh well so much for ask anything.

Maybe do an anonymous one so you can be more transparent.

Cheers... see you in the pitch.

Be sure to let me know you're there so I can remove you from the premises before kickoff, because you're clearly not going to be reasonable.

You seem really defensive. It started with U12 and lasted years. My son is 20 now. It was 8 years - 3 years ago.

The lady had a raspy voice I think it was NCSl.

If sending a video of you being abusive to a player to complain makes me unreasonable then you should not be a ref.

[Anonymous]

^^^ that’s such a weird response. Nobody accused you of being the referees that were reported.

[Anonymous]

Somewhat of a soccer neophyte here.

How do refs interpret contact with the keeper? I get that a 50/50 ball is just that, and fair game (and a goalie presumably has a responsibility to protect him/herself). Too often, though, particularly at the younger ages, there is no doubt that GK will get to the ball first, yet the attacking player will come in full bore on the chance that the GK misplays it (as taught by the coach to "follow up"), and when the keeper goes to play it cleanly (either by hand or foot), he/she gets taken out.

FWIW, I come from the hockey culture where the rules recognize that GK is almost always in a vulnerable position and the rules are designed to protect the keeper. I'm curious whether soccer refs follow the same thinking.