Changes in MCPS in the last 15 years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

LOL

7 ESOL Teachers at one ES, but just one PE teacher

How many students does that one PE teacher serve - at our ES, it's something like 750.
And, how many students do the ESOL teachers serve? At our ES, it's about 30-40% ESOL.

So, we're spending a LOT of staffing hours on ESOL for a minority of the students, while our PE teacher is teaching combined classes of close to 50 kids during PE.

Can you see why parents might find that irritating?

You aren’t getting that this would be the same ratio for PE even if your school had zero ESOL teachers.

This, but ALSO, access to ESOL services is a federal mandate. Schools must engaged English Language Learners per the law.

Right.

So, MCPS has to get funding for all these ESOL services from somewhere.

Yes, and ESOL funds are not always fungible to PE slots or other positions. ESOL positions are largely funded out of Title I funds, and therefore must be used to target specific communities within the school. If the school didn't have those communities, they would not receive those funds.

Does that mean if every ES in MCPS has 40% ESOL students none of the school would receive Funding for ESOL?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

LOL

7 ESOL Teachers at one ES, but just one PE teacher

How many students does that one PE teacher serve - at our ES, it's something like 750.
And, how many students do the ESOL teachers serve? At our ES, it's about 30-40% ESOL.

So, we're spending a LOT of staffing hours on ESOL for a minority of the students, while our PE teacher is teaching combined classes of close to 50 kids during PE.

Can you see why parents might find that irritating?

You aren’t getting that this would be the same ratio for PE even if your school had zero ESOL teachers.

This, but ALSO, access to ESOL services is a federal mandate. Schools must engaged English Language Learners per the law.

Right.

So, MCPS has to get funding for all these ESOL services from somewhere.

Yes, and ESOL funds are not always fungible to PE slots or other positions. ESOL positions are largely funded out of Title I funds, and therefore must be used to target specific communities within the school. If the school didn't have those communities, they would not receive those funds.

Does that mean if every ES in MCPS has 40% ESOL students none of the school would receive Funding for ESOL?

No. That's not how it works. The funding follows the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And the percentage of ESOL students has increased. So it takes up a larger part of the budget. Meaning less money for other things.

MCPs does not have an unlimited budget. Otherwise, my kids’ Compacted Math class would have two classes instead of one class with 35 kids.

Obviously

1. the budget is not unlimited
2. money spent on x cannot be spent on y (and vice versa)

That does not mean that there would be money for two classes of compacted math, each with 17.5 kids, if only the percentage of ESOL students at your school were lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And the percentage of ESOL students has increased. So it takes up a larger part of the budget. Meaning less money for other things.

MCPs does not have an unlimited budget. Otherwise, my kids’ Compacted Math class would have two classes instead of one class with 35 kids.

Obviously

1. the budget is not unlimited
2. money spent on x cannot be spent on y (and vice versa)

That does not mean that there would be money for two classes of compacted math, each with 17.5 kids, if only the percentage of ESOL students at your school were lower.

THIS is key. And, this is why middle-class parents in MCPS are frustrated. At least in my neighborhood.

Like it or not, PC or not, the increase in the percentage of ESOL students has meant that more money has to be spent on services for those students. Which leaves less money for other students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And the percentage of ESOL students has increased. So it takes up a larger part of the budget. Meaning less money for other things.

MCPs does not have an unlimited budget. Otherwise, my kids’ Compacted Math class would have two classes instead of one class with 35 kids.

Obviously

1. the budget is not unlimited
2. money spent on x cannot be spent on y (and vice versa)

That does not mean that there would be money for two classes of compacted math, each with 17.5 kids, if only the percentage of ESOL students at your school were lower.

THIS is key. And, this is why middle-class parents in MCPS are frustrated. At least in my neighborhood.

Like it or not, PC or not, the increase in the percentage of ESOL students has meant that more money has to be spent on services for those students. Which leaves less money for other students.

The point is that this is true for ANYTHING money is spent on. More money for PE teachers means less money for music teachers. More money for recess supervisors means less money for science materials. Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And the percentage of ESOL students has increased. So it takes up a larger part of the budget. Meaning less money for other things.

MCPs does not have an unlimited budget. Otherwise, my kids’ Compacted Math class would have two classes instead of one class with 35 kids.

Obviously

1. the budget is not unlimited
2. money spent on x cannot be spent on y (and vice versa)

That does not mean that there would be money for two classes of compacted math, each with 17.5 kids, if only the percentage of ESOL students at your school were lower.

THIS is key. And, this is why middle-class parents in MCPS are frustrated. At least in my neighborhood.

Like it or not, PC or not, the increase in the percentage of ESOL students has meant that more money has to be spent on services for those students. Which leaves less money for other students.

Do you make the same complaint about special education kids? My middle school has 39 special education staff (plus two support staff)
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/cabinjohnms/staff/directory.aspx

For comparison the school has 7 science teachers. As you say, the more money spent on special Ed kids, the less available for other students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the change is that there are a lot more poor brown people now, much like the rest of the US, and many don't like it.

This is it. We moved here 30 years ago and raised three kids in MoCo/MCPS. It's not like people don't like "brown" people, the increased number of latinos and blacks affected the school system, many view negatively.

It's a hard pill to swallow but this is the root cause

Some people even are "brown" people.

But yes, there is a part of the DCUM demographic that wishes it were still 1975 in Montgomery County (and the world), and that's reflected in the MD Public Schools forum.

Plus people like to complain on the internet.

Do you have kids in the school system? It not just on the internet. I hear parents complaining at the bus stop. I hear teachers complaining. Hell, I hear students complaining about the crappy behaviors they have to put up with at school.

MCPS has grown too large, and has abysmal leadership. It's a miserable school system, and would benefit from some major changes.

I’d love for your children to spend one week at a school in PG County or DC. You’d come crawling back to Montgomery singing it’s praises.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the change is that there are a lot more poor brown people now, much like the rest of the US, and many don't like it.

This is it. We moved here 30 years ago and raised three kids in MoCo/MCPS. It's not like people don't like "brown" people, the increased number of latinos and blacks affected the school system, many view negatively.

It's a hard pill to swallow but this is the root cause

Some people even are "brown" people.

But yes, there is a part of the DCUM demographic that wishes it were still 1975 in Montgomery County (and the world), and that's reflected in the MD Public Schools forum.

Plus people like to complain on the internet.

Do you have kids in the school system? It not just on the internet. I hear parents complaining at the bus stop. I hear teachers complaining. Hell, I hear students complaining about the crappy behaviors they have to put up with at school.

MCPS has grown too large, and has abysmal leadership. It's a miserable school system, and would benefit from some major changes.

I’d love for your children to spend one week at a school in PG County or DC. You’d come crawling back to Montgomery singing it’s praises.

So that’s our standard now? We’re not doing as terrible as DC or PG County, so YAY! Eh, that’s complacent.

[Anonymous]

pp you are right but when the class size is already close to 15 ( Farms/ Focus) is it absolutely necessary to have most children in ESOL? I understand there are multiple levels, but the majority of these children are born in the US, attended PEP/ pre- K or Headstart classes, and are bilingual. Do you absolutely think that getting pulled out to work in a group of 2-3 students is absolutely necessary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:pp you are right but when the class size is already close to 15 ( Farms/ Focus) is it absolutely necessary to have most children in ESOL? I understand there are multiple levels, but the majority of these children are born in the US, attended PEP/ pre- K or Headstart classes, and are bilingual. Do you absolutely think that getting pulled out to work in a group of 2-3 students is absolutely necessary?

It is if you want to close the Achievement Gap.

[Anonymous]

There is a percentage of the funding that is federal. It is usually anything with “Title [insert Roman numeral here].” The money comes specifically to fulfill those federal mandates and cannot be spent on standard educational expenditures from the state and local levels.

So at least some of the $$ for ESOL/FARMS/SN is completely independent of what is available for art/music/PE.

[Anonymous]

Based on the descriptions here, DC ES are much better! Kids have PE more than once a week. They also get music and art. At my kids current charter, kids have PE 2-3 times a week, plus theater/art depending on the grade. Classes sizes are no more than 20 kids. DC school also offer free Pre-K. Reallyl glad we decided not to move to MC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:pp you are right but when the class size is already close to 15 ( Farms/ Focus) is it absolutely necessary to have most children in ESOL? I understand there are multiple levels, but the majority of these children are born in the US, attended PEP/ pre- K or Headstart classes, and are bilingual. Do you absolutely think that getting pulled out to work in a group of 2-3 students is absolutely necessary?

Maybe that is a question better answered by ESOL professionals, assessing specific individual children, than by anonymous posters on DCUM about large groups of children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the change is that there are a lot more poor brown people now, much like the rest of the US, and many don't like it.

This is it. We moved here 30 years ago and raised three kids in MoCo/MCPS. It's not like people don't like "brown" people, the increased number of latinos and blacks affected the school system, many view negatively.

It's a hard pill to swallow but this is the root cause

Some people even are "brown" people.

But yes, there is a part of the DCUM demographic that wishes it were still 1975 in Montgomery County (and the world), and that's reflected in the MD Public Schools forum.

Plus people like to complain on the internet.

Do you have kids in the school system? It not just on the internet. I hear parents complaining at the bus stop. I hear teachers complaining. Hell, I hear students complaining about the crappy behaviors they have to put up with at school.

MCPS has grown too large, and has abysmal leadership. It's a miserable school system, and would benefit from some major changes.

I’d love for your children to spend one week at a school in PG County or DC. You’d come crawling back to Montgomery singing it’s praises.

And I spent my entire teaching career in MCPS. My kids spent four years in the system before we moved out of the area.

I will NEVER return singing its praises b/c where are now is SUPERIOR to our former system. So while MCPS may be better than some systems, it's NOT THE best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Based on the descriptions here, DC ES are much better! Kids have PE more than once a week. They also get music and art. At my kids current charter, kids have PE 2-3 times a week, plus theater/art depending on the grade. Classes sizes are no more than 20 kids. DC school also offer free Pre-K. Reallyl glad we decided not to move to MC.

And in which PART of DC is this school located?

Will you be staying in the area for MS and HS?

Here's the thing. . . . While an ES may be wonderful by your standards, the HS isn't always so great. This is why those with means end up paying for private.