What Will Some Wealthy Parents Not Do if a Free Buck to be Made?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This shakes me something fierce because I was living on my own at age 21 (1.5 FT jobs) with car insurance, phone, rent, etc paid for by me. This was before ACA so I also was not on my parents health insurance. Still had to claim my parents income- making me ineligible for grants and other need-based aid.

Fast forward a few years going back to school since I never completed my degree and my FT income per my last tax return was used for need-based aid calculations. Mind you, I couldnt work a FT job and finish my bachelors so I asked to have it reviewed at my current income using pay stubs. They denied the review and stated I should have "saved more money."

I know plenty of people who fudged the FAFSA in other ways. My step siblings used my dads income (their stepdad) versus their dads income even though their dad was a millionaire and paid for whatever was left. One went to UNC, the other ECU.

That isn't actually 'fudging' the FAFSA. The FAFSA asks for household members' income, defined as people who live in the same household, not relatives who live elsewhere. UNC, does not use FAFSA only, though. They require a CSS profile which would ask for bio parents income. My son's father refused to complete his portion of the CSS making him ineligible for aid at UNC.

They lived with their dad in NC. It was fudging. My dad lived in FL with their Mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This shakes me something fierce because I was living on my own at age 21 (1.5 FT jobs) with car insurance, phone, rent, etc paid for by me. This was before ACA so I also was not on my parents health insurance. Still had to claim my parents income- making me ineligible for grants and other need-based aid.

Fast forward a few years going back to school since I never completed my degree and my FT income per my last tax return was used for need-based aid calculations. Mind you, I couldnt work a FT job and finish my bachelors so I asked to have it reviewed at my current income using pay stubs. They denied the review and stated I should have "saved more money."

I know plenty of people who fudged the FAFSA in other ways. My step siblings used my dads income (their stepdad) versus their dads income even though their dad was a millionaire and paid for whatever was left. One went to UNC, the other ECU.

That isn't actually 'fudging' the FAFSA. The FAFSA asks for household members' income, defined as people who live in the same household, not relatives who live elsewhere. UNC, does not use FAFSA only, though. They require a CSS profile which would ask for bio parents income. My son's father refused to complete his portion of the CSS making him ineligible for aid at UNC.

They lived with their dad in NC. It was fudging. My dad lived in FL with their Mom.

That was not clear in your first post, in that case, it was not 'fudging'. It was flat-out fraud. Possibly counter-productive fraud since they would then have been ineligible for in-state tuition. Your father or their mother would also have needed to sign off on the FAFSA making them just as guilty as your step-siblings. Not sure how your UNC attending sibling would have skirted the CSS profile, though, since all parental income is required to be provided.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The money in the cases that ProPublica Illinois primarily came from federal Pell Grants and the State of Illinois MAP program.

Whether they got private scholarships or university scholarships is unclear. Also these cases involved the University of Illinois and U of Wisconsin. So far no privates have been found.

What? From the ProPublica article:
"A number of the children are high-achieving scholars, athletes and musicians who attend or have been accepted to a range of universities, from large public institutions, including the University of Wisconsin, the University of Missouri and Indiana University, to smaller private colleges."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To quote one poster:

"Parent’s income and assets shouldn’t determine the price of a future working adult’s college education, but that’s exactly what the aid and so-called scholarship system has produced in just the last two decades. That and exorbitant tuition costs that are not justifiable.

This is the real scam."

Yes, this.

It is your position that all college scholarships are a scam, and should be abolished? Full pay for everyone?

Got it. Good luck with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shrugs.

I have a nephew. Son of a single mother. I pay his private school tuition ($35k a year) and my parents helped my sister buy her house, a modest rowhouse in a very nice area, and pay for his camps and tutors and activities and trips abroad. If you met my nephew, he will come across as a nice upper middle class kid. When the time comes to go to college, based on my sister's income and assets he will qualify for substantial financial aid despite that the larger family is more affluent and could easily pay his tuition. We will do it if it needs to be the case, but you better believe we're going to game the system to try to get as much financial aid as we can. We're not going to pass up that chance. The system is broken, dysfunctional and hypocritical and we're not going to take the higher moral road because there is none.

Sorry, but you know their is a high ground, and you are not choosing it. Hence your use of the term “game the system”.

You do you, go ahead. To some, ethics are more important than money or sibling jealousy. The lucky poors!

People who claim a higher moral road often ignore that no one else cares. In most cases it's a self imposed punishment that accomplishes nothing. In this case it's no more unethical than a college claiming to be need blind and only offering token financial aid that is clearly insufficient, squeezing out people while rapidly becoming a campus divided between the rich and the lucky poor, as all the donut hole families can tell you.

In a system where top schools justify charging 70k a year for a degree, there are no ethics. It's as simple as that.

If you can't tell the difference between PP and engaging in a sham guardianship switch-up to effectively conceal the students's resources, I don't know what to tell you.

The PP accused me of sibling jealousy. If I was jealous I wouldn't be paying my nephew's tuition.

The difference between smart people and the gullible is that the smart know how to take advantage of the resources at their disposal, including the cards dealt to them. You don't know my sister or her particular circumstances beyond that she has a loving and supportive family. We will do what it takes to make sure my nephew has a great start in life. But we are not foolish enough to pass up opportunities to take advantage of loopholes due to how the financial aid system is structured. Morals and ethics ultimately boil down to treating people kindly and don't break unjust laws. Anything more than that is purely subjective.

I think you're causing unnecessary blowback here by calling it a loophole. In my opinion, it isn't even that. As far as I know, the FAFSA doesn't ask for grandparent income or net worth, or that of an aunt or uncle. Those are the rules. If someone thinks they're wrong, fine - try to change them. But as things stand, there's nothing at all wrong with this young man getting aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This shakes me something fierce because I was living on my own at age 21 (1.5 FT jobs) with car insurance, phone, rent, etc paid for by me. This was before ACA so I also was not on my parents health insurance. Still had to claim my parents income- making me ineligible for grants and other need-based aid.

Fast forward a few years going back to school since I never completed my degree and my FT income per my last tax return was used for need-based aid calculations. Mind you, I couldnt work a FT job and finish my bachelors so I asked to have it reviewed at my current income using pay stubs. They denied the review and stated I should have "saved more money."

I know plenty of people who fudged the FAFSA in other ways. My step siblings used my dads income (their stepdad) versus their dads income even though their dad was a millionaire and paid for whatever was left. One went to UNC, the other ECU.

That isn't actually 'fudging' the FAFSA. The FAFSA asks for household members' income, defined as people who live in the same household, not relatives who live elsewhere. UNC, does not use FAFSA only, though. They require a CSS profile which would ask for bio parents income. My son's father refused to complete his portion of the CSS making him ineligible for aid at UNC.

They lived with their dad in NC. It was fudging. My dad lived in FL with their Mom.

That was not clear in your first post, in that case, it was not 'fudging'. It was flat-out fraud. Possibly counter-productive fraud since they would then have been ineligible for in-state tuition. Your father or their mother would also have needed to sign off on the FAFSA making them just as guilty as your step-siblings. Not sure how your UNC attending sibling would have skirted the CSS profile, though, since all parental income is required to be provided.

No longer my sibling and this was early 2000s. I knew about it because my Dad said I should use him too vs. my parents. Yes, he also did insurance fraud so I am not surprised.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shrugs.

I have a nephew. Son of a single mother. I pay his private school tuition ($35k a year) and my parents helped my sister buy her house, a modest rowhouse in a very nice area, and pay for his camps and tutors and activities and trips abroad. If you met my nephew, he will come across as a nice upper middle class kid. When the time comes to go to college, based on my sister's income and assets he will qualify for substantial financial aid despite that the larger family is more affluent and could easily pay his tuition. We will do it if it needs to be the case, but you better believe we're going to game the system to try to get as much financial aid as we can. We're not going to pass up that chance. The system is broken, dysfunctional and hypocritical and we're not going to take the higher moral road because there is none.

Sorry, but you know their is a high ground, and you are not choosing it. Hence your use of the term “game the system”.

You do you, go ahead. To some, ethics are more important than money or sibling jealousy. The lucky poors!

People who claim a higher moral road often ignore that no one else cares. In most cases it's a self imposed punishment that accomplishes nothing. In this case it's no more unethical than a college claiming to be need blind and only offering token financial aid that is clearly insufficient, squeezing out people while rapidly becoming a campus divided between the rich and the lucky poor, as all the donut hole families can tell you.

In a system where top schools justify charging 70k a year for a degree, there are no ethics. It's as simple as that.

If you can't tell the difference between PP and engaging in a sham guardianship switch-up to effectively conceal the students's resources, I don't know what to tell you.

The PP accused me of sibling jealousy. If I was jealous I wouldn't be paying my nephew's tuition.

The difference between smart people and the gullible is that the smart know how to take advantage of the resources at their disposal, including the cards dealt to them. You don't know my sister or her particular circumstances beyond that she has a loving and supportive family. We will do what it takes to make sure my nephew has a great start in life. But we are not foolish enough to pass up opportunities to take advantage of loopholes due to how the financial aid system is structured. Morals and ethics ultimately boil down to treating people kindly and don't break unjust laws. Anything more than that is purely subjective.

I think you're causing unnecessary blowback here by calling it a loophole. In my opinion, it isn't even that. As far as I know, the FAFSA doesn't ask for grandparent income or net worth, or that of an aunt or uncle. Those are the rules. If someone thinks they're wrong, fine - try to change them. But as things stand, there's nothing at all wrong with this young man getting aid.

The FAFSA does not ask for other relatives income. It doesn't ask for the parent's net worth either. Just income and savings or other assets.

CSS schools do ask about any other support the student receives, including from relatives. If a student/family claims there are no other forms of financial support, and a tuition check comes in from someone besides the family (e.g. aunt or grandparent, or a non-parental 529) it will be noted and more questions asked in future years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shrugs.

I have a nephew. Son of a single mother. I pay his private school tuition ($35k a year) and my parents helped my sister buy her house, a modest rowhouse in a very nice area, and pay for his camps and tutors and activities and trips abroad. If you met my nephew, he will come across as a nice upper middle class kid. When the time comes to go to college, based on my sister's income and assets he will qualify for substantial financial aid despite that the larger family is more affluent and could easily pay his tuition. We will do it if it needs to be the case, but you better believe we're going to game the system to try to get as much financial aid as we can. We're not going to pass up that chance. The system is broken, dysfunctional and hypocritical and we're not going to take the higher moral road because there is none.

Sorry, but you know their is a high ground, and you are not choosing it. Hence your use of the term “game the system”.

You do you, go ahead. To some, ethics are more important than money or sibling jealousy. The lucky poors!

People who claim a higher moral road often ignore that no one else cares. In most cases it's a self imposed punishment that accomplishes nothing. In this case it's no more unethical than a college claiming to be need blind and only offering token financial aid that is clearly insufficient, squeezing out people while rapidly becoming a campus divided between the rich and the lucky poor, as all the donut hole families can tell you.

In a system where top schools justify charging 70k a year for a degree, there are no ethics. It's as simple as that.

If you can't tell the difference between PP and engaging in a sham guardianship switch-up to effectively conceal the students's resources, I don't know what to tell you.

The PP accused me of sibling jealousy. If I was jealous I wouldn't be paying my nephew's tuition.

The difference between smart people and the gullible is that the smart know how to take advantage of the resources at their disposal, including the cards dealt to them. You don't know my sister or her particular circumstances beyond that she has a loving and supportive family. We will do what it takes to make sure my nephew has a great start in life. But we are not foolish enough to pass up opportunities to take advantage of loopholes due to how the financial aid system is structured. Morals and ethics ultimately boil down to treating people kindly and don't break unjust laws. Anything more than that is purely subjective.

It's not a "loophole." The FAFSA asks for your parents' income, not your extended family. You're not engaging in any sham or fraud.

Yeah, I don't get why pp feels she is playing the system. She has money. She is not the child's parent. It was a similar situation with me and my mother and aunt growing up. We lived with my aunt, she had money, we did not. We did not game the system when I got financial aid for college because she is not my parent, even though I consider her a second mother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To quote one poster:

"Parent’s income and assets shouldn’t determine the price of a future working adult’s college education, but that’s exactly what the aid and so-called scholarship system has produced in just the last two decades. That and exorbitant tuition costs that are not justifiable.

This is the real scam."

Yes, this.

wha ...? I am all for reducing college costs, but your parents should absolutely have to contribute what they can.

Can you put the rationale for your thinking in words, other than to use the word "absolutely"?

I don't think anyone except you need this explained.

Again, try using words instead of insinuations. Here's an attempt: "Parents are asked to pay for their adult children's college expenses (*) because .... "

For extra credit, also complete the sentence: "If parents who are asked to pay do not pay, their children do not have a recourse because ... "

Try it, and then proofread what you were trying to say.

See how difficult this is?

(*) except if they allowed their underage children to marry, or their children chose to have grandchildren, or the relinquished custodianship of their children

Again, you're literally the only person who needs this explained. If you'd like to state your arguments and beliefs, go'head.

Np - I’d like to hear it explained, too. Why should the income or assets of parents be counted as those that will support another adult?

Please complete pp’s sentences.

DP. If the parents don't have the adult son/daughter as beneficiary on their life insurance and in their will, and if there is no monetary assistance from parents, then yes, the student can declare as an independent adult. Otherwise they are involved in "white collar fraud" and should be dealt with accordingly.

[Anonymous]

This is why normal people have to submit so much documentation and go through verification. The aid officers know some people are cheating and are probably charged with finding them, so we all suffer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shrugs.

I have a nephew. Son of a single mother. I pay his private school tuition ($35k a year) and my parents helped my sister buy her house, a modest rowhouse in a very nice area, and pay for his camps and tutors and activities and trips abroad. If you met my nephew, he will come across as a nice upper middle class kid. When the time comes to go to college, based on my sister's income and assets he will qualify for substantial financial aid despite that the larger family is more affluent and could easily pay his tuition. We will do it if it needs to be the case, but you better believe we're going to game the system to try to get as much financial aid as we can. We're not going to pass up that chance. The system is broken, dysfunctional and hypocritical and we're not going to take the higher moral road because there is none.

Sorry, but you know their is a high ground, and you are not choosing it. Hence your use of the term “game the system”.

You do you, go ahead. To some, ethics are more important than money or sibling jealousy. The lucky poors!

People who claim a higher moral road often ignore that no one else cares. In most cases it's a self imposed punishment that accomplishes nothing. In this case it's no more unethical than a college claiming to be need blind and only offering token financial aid that is clearly insufficient, squeezing out people while rapidly becoming a campus divided between the rich and the lucky poor, as all the donut hole families can tell you.

In a system where top schools justify charging 70k a year for a degree, there are no ethics. It's as simple as that.

If you can't tell the difference between PP and engaging in a sham guardianship switch-up to effectively conceal the students's resources, I don't know what to tell you.

The PP accused me of sibling jealousy. If I was jealous I wouldn't be paying my nephew's tuition.

The difference between smart people and the gullible is that the smart know how to take advantage of the resources at their disposal, including the cards dealt to them. You don't know my sister or her particular circumstances beyond that she has a loving and supportive family. We will do what it takes to make sure my nephew has a great start in life. But we are not foolish enough to pass up opportunities to take advantage of loopholes due to how the financial aid system is structured. Morals and ethics ultimately boil down to treating people kindly and don't break unjust laws. Anything more than that is purely subjective.

You rationalize it however you like. You admit it was dishonest and your gonna do that anyway. And as others have pointed out you don’t care. So it’s all good. I’ll pay full price with my head high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shrugs.

I have a nephew. Son of a single mother. I pay his private school tuition ($35k a year) and my parents helped my sister buy her house, a modest rowhouse in a very nice area, and pay for his camps and tutors and activities and trips abroad. If you met my nephew, he will come across as a nice upper middle class kid. When the time comes to go to college, based on my sister's income and assets he will qualify for substantial financial aid despite that the larger family is more affluent and could easily pay his tuition. We will do it if it needs to be the case, but you better believe we're going to game the system to try to get as much financial aid as we can. We're not going to pass up that chance. The system is broken, dysfunctional and hypocritical and we're not going to take the higher moral road because there is none.

You aren't gaming the system, though. His income is nil, his mother's is low and you and your family have helped but don't have to/can pull that help at any time so he should receive aid based on HHI not on the largesse of generous relatives.

[Anonymous]

I'm just curious as to what race the poster thinks all of these "gamers" are. I'm white and I've never heard of anyone doing this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Technically it makes no sense to include parental income as students are adults when they turn 18. They should charge everyone a reasonable price and reduce their spending to keep things affordable.

I also find the current system odd. When a student is 18, the parents have no right to see their grades (unless they sign a waiver), and no right to their medical information. The student can marry and be sent to war and be charged as an adult for their crimes. Despite the legal system treating them as a full blown grown up, they are treated as dependent toddlers when it comes to determining the cost of tuition or residency. While what these Chicago parents have done seems mean spirited, it could be seen as a reaction to the perverse system of incentives that the universities have created.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm just curious as to what race the poster thinks all of these "gamers" are. I'm white and I've never heard of anyone doing this.

I expect they are green, or whatever color they are printing on the large bills ... That's my guess.