Prep for HGC and MS magnet tests

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet a high percentage of responses will claim their kids didn’t prep. I proctor these tests. Most of the kids prep.

Test prep is valuable in its own right. It can teach vocabulary or strengthen math or reasoning skills and help a child to become familiar with the types of questions on the test. Test prep also can help the child develop test-taking skills, which will serve them when they take the SAT/ACT. Test prep can help the child be less nervous and build confidence. Test prep won't make a child who isn't highly gifted become highly gifted.

A benefit of A Plus or Dr. Li that a lot of time is dedicated to learning material and becoming familiar with the test. That doesn't mean that a highly gifted child who is focused and puts in the time can't learn the same material just as well with books or online resources (some free).

MCPS publicly announced which test would be used, so anyone can get that information.

I don't think know it is COGAT means as much as some claims. I don't think you can find the actual test format let alone actual test items unless you take it. And my then 3rd grader was not able to tell me the test format after he took it.

But what you said in your first paragraph is exactly why people prep. It is a learning process as well. That is why some parents/students feel that prepping is useful.

I like the idea of doing a randomized experiment of assigning kids to A-Plus classes. If it does half of what the critics of prepping say, I will be willing to sponsor a few kids to do the program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet a high percentage of responses will claim their kids didn’t prep. I proctor these tests. Most of the kids prep.

Test prep is valuable in its own right. It can teach vocabulary or strengthen math or reasoning skills and help a child to become familiar with the types of questions on the test. Test prep also can help the child develop test-taking skills, which will serve them when they take the SAT/ACT. Test prep can help the child be less nervous and build confidence. Test prep won't make a child who isn't highly gifted become highly gifted.

A benefit of A Plus or Dr. Li that a lot of time is dedicated to learning material and becoming familiar with the test. That doesn't mean that a highly gifted child who is focused and puts in the time can't learn the same material just as well with books or online resources (some free).

MCPS publicly announced which test would be used, so anyone can get that information.

I don't think know it is COGAT means as much as some claims. I don't think you can find the actual test format let alone actual test items unless you take it. And my then 3rd grader was not able to tell me the test format after he took it.

But what you said in your first paragraph is exactly why people prep. It is a learning process as well. That is why some parents/students feel that prepping is useful.

I like the idea of doing a randomized experiment of assigning kids to A-Plus classes. If it does half of what the critics of prepping say, I will be willing to sponsor a few kids to do the program.

Huh? Translation, please!

[Anonymous]

My kid got into both middle school magnets and Blair, RM and CAP and did not prep beyond looking at the sample questions provided in the application materials. We did talk about test taking strategy (timing etc.) but I am not sure if this mattered so much because by middle school, my kid was used to taking standardized tests in a school setting. Although my child did not take a formal test prep course, there is no doubt that my child had spent many years preparing to take these tests. He is a voracious reader, we did some Singapore Math during the summers after grades 3, 4 and 5 to compensate for gaps in the MCPS ES curriculum and I spent a lot of time taking him to museums, plays etc. We stressed education, spent a lot of time at the library and paid close attention to how he was doing in school in elementary school in particular.
fwiw there are some kids in the magnet programs whose parents pay for A+ type courses but most kids don't. My strong suspicion is that the kids who take "prep" courses and get into these programs would probably get in anyway. It is not the big edge that promoters of the service purport it to be.
I think it is similar to SAT prep. In this case of course old tests are widely available so it would be foolish to walk into the SAT exam without having practiced. My child purchased a $15 College Board SAT book and did some practice exams before the test. He has friends who spent a lot of money and time on SAT prep courses at Montgomery College etc. Again, I strongly suspect they might have done just as well if they had just used the $15 book. This is especially true for kids in the 98th and 99th percentile imo

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet a high percentage of responses will claim their kids didn’t prep. I proctor these tests. Most of the kids prep.

Test prep is valuable in its own right. It can teach vocabulary or strengthen math or reasoning skills and help a child to become familiar with the types of questions on the test. Test prep also can help the child develop test-taking skills, which will serve them when they take the SAT/ACT. Test prep can help the child be less nervous and build confidence. Test prep won't make a child who isn't highly gifted become highly gifted.

A benefit of A Plus or Dr. Li that a lot of time is dedicated to learning material and becoming familiar with the test. That doesn't mean that a highly gifted child who is focused and puts in the time can't learn the same material just as well with books or online resources (some free).

MCPS publicly announced which test would be used, so anyone can get that information.

I don't think know it is COGAT means as much as some claims. I don't think you can find the actual test format let alone actual test items unless you take it. And my then 3rd grader was not able to tell me the test format after he took it.

But what you said in your first paragraph is exactly why people prep. It is a learning process as well. That is why some parents/students feel that prepping is useful.

I like the idea of doing a randomized experiment of assigning kids to A-Plus classes. If it does half of what the critics of prepping say, I will be willing to sponsor a few kids to do the program.

Huh? Translation, please!

Simply knowing that it's the COGAT doesn't help as much as some claim since it's a proprietary test and the format and questions are closely guarded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid got into both middle school magnets and Blair, RM and CAP and did not prep beyond looking at the sample questions provided in the application materials. We did talk about test taking strategy (timing etc.) but I am not sure if this mattered so much because by middle school, my kid was used to taking standardized tests in a school setting. Although my child did not take a formal test prep course, there is no doubt that my child had spent many years preparing to take these tests. He is a voracious reader, we did some Singapore Math during the summers after grades 3, 4 and 5 to compensate for gaps in the MCPS ES curriculum and I spent a lot of time taking him to museums, plays etc. We stressed education, spent a lot of time at the library and paid close attention to how he was doing in school in elementary school in particular.
fwiw there are some kids in the magnet programs whose parents pay for A+ type courses but most kids don't. My strong suspicion is that the kids who take "prep" courses and get into these programs would probably get in anyway. It is not the big edge that promoters of the service purport it to be.
I think it is similar to SAT prep. In this case of course old tests are widely available so it would be foolish to walk into the SAT exam without having practiced. My child purchased a $15 College Board SAT book and did some practice exams before the test. He has friends who spent a lot of money and time on SAT prep courses at Montgomery College etc. Again, I strongly suspect they might have done just as well if they had just used the $15 book. This is especially true for kids in the 98th and 99th percentile imo

The bold part. I simply don't think these prep places improve a student's chance that much. I actually looked into them but decided against them because I didn't want to make my child spend a weekend that way. We also looked into their prep tests, and they don't look anything like the actual test according to my child after he took the real test. If you read the reviews of those so called Cogat prep book, you will realize that the authors don't really have the actual tests either.

Having said all this, I think prepping will improve the student's chance at the margin, just by doing more exercise on vocabulary, reading comprehension, math analogies, it could make a child more efficient at the tests. But then again, my child never complains about not having enough time, so I am glad I didn't spend the money on the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet a high percentage of responses will claim their kids didn’t prep. I proctor these tests. Most of the kids prep.

Test prep is valuable in its own right. It can teach vocabulary or strengthen math or reasoning skills and help a child to become familiar with the types of questions on the test. Test prep also can help the child develop test-taking skills, which will serve them when they take the SAT/ACT. Test prep can help the child be less nervous and build confidence. Test prep won't make a child who isn't highly gifted become highly gifted.

A benefit of A Plus or Dr. Li that a lot of time is dedicated to learning material and becoming familiar with the test. That doesn't mean that a highly gifted child who is focused and puts in the time can't learn the same material just as well with books or online resources (some free).

MCPS publicly announced which test would be used, so anyone can get that information.

I don't think know it is COGAT means as much as some claims. I don't think you can find the actual test format let alone actual test items unless you take it. And my then 3rd grader was not able to tell me the test format after he took it.

But what you said in your first paragraph is exactly why people prep. It is a learning process as well. That is why some parents/students feel that prepping is useful.

I like the idea of doing a randomized experiment of assigning kids to A-Plus classes. If it does half of what the critics of prepping say, I will be willing to sponsor a few kids to do the program.

Huh? Translation, please!

Simply knowing that it's the COGAT doesn't help as much as some claim since it's a proprietary test and the format and questions are closely guarded.

This!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet a high percentage of responses will claim their kids didn’t prep. I proctor these tests. Most of the kids prep.

Test prep is valuable in its own right. It can teach vocabulary or strengthen math or reasoning skills and help a child to become familiar with the types of questions on the test. Test prep also can help the child develop test-taking skills, which will serve them when they take the SAT/ACT. Test prep can help the child be less nervous and build confidence. Test prep won't make a child who isn't highly gifted become highly gifted.

A benefit of A Plus or Dr. Li that a lot of time is dedicated to learning material and becoming familiar with the test. That doesn't mean that a highly gifted child who is focused and puts in the time can't learn the same material just as well with books or online resources (some free).

MCPS publicly announced which test would be used, so anyone can get that information.

I don't think know it is COGAT means as much as some claims. I don't think you can find the actual test format let alone actual test items unless you take it. And my then 3rd grader was not able to tell me the test format after he took it.

But what you said in your first paragraph is exactly why people prep. It is a learning process as well. That is why some parents/students feel that prepping is useful.

I like the idea of doing a randomized experiment of assigning kids to A-Plus classes. If it does half of what the critics of prepping say, I will be willing to sponsor a few kids to do the program.

Huh? Translation, please!

Simply knowing that it's the COGAT doesn't help as much as some claim since it's a proprietary test and the format and questions are closely guarded.

This!

Except a great deal is know about the types of questions and the format.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid got into both middle school magnets and Blair, RM and CAP and did not prep beyond looking at the sample questions provided in the application materials. We did talk about test taking strategy (timing etc.) but I am not sure if this mattered so much because by middle school, my kid was used to taking standardized tests in a school setting. Although my child did not take a formal test prep course, there is no doubt that my child had spent many years preparing to take these tests. He is a voracious reader, we did some Singapore Math during the summers after grades 3, 4 and 5 to compensate for gaps in the MCPS ES curriculum and I spent a lot of time taking him to museums, plays etc. We stressed education, spent a lot of time at the library and paid close attention to how he was doing in school in elementary school in particular.
fwiw there are some kids in the magnet programs whose parents pay for A+ type courses but most kids don't. My strong suspicion is that the kids who take "prep" courses and get into these programs would probably get in anyway. It is not the big edge that promoters of the service purport it to be.
I think it is similar to SAT prep. In this case of course old tests are widely available so it would be foolish to walk into the SAT exam without having practiced. My child purchased a $15 College Board SAT book and did some practice exams before the test. He has friends who spent a lot of money and time on SAT prep courses at Montgomery College etc. Again, I strongly suspect they might have done just as well if they had just used the $15 book. This is especially true for kids in the 98th and 99th percentile imo

I agree. I know for a fact that the students who got in after going to these test prep companies were actually in the 98 and 99 percentile in most of the standardized tests at school ad were considered shoo-ins. These students had been several grades above their grades in most subjects for most of their school life. The average students who took these prep classes did not get much out of it. They would have been better spending their money on individualized tutoring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet a high percentage of responses will claim their kids didn’t prep. I proctor these tests. Most of the kids prep.

Test prep is valuable in its own right. It can teach vocabulary or strengthen math or reasoning skills and help a child to become familiar with the types of questions on the test. Test prep also can help the child develop test-taking skills, which will serve them when they take the SAT/ACT. Test prep can help the child be less nervous and build confidence. Test prep won't make a child who isn't highly gifted become highly gifted.

A benefit of A Plus or Dr. Li that a lot of time is dedicated to learning material and becoming familiar with the test. That doesn't mean that a highly gifted child who is focused and puts in the time can't learn the same material just as well with books or online resources (some free).

MCPS publicly announced which test would be used, so anyone can get that information.

I don't think know it is COGAT means as much as some claims. I don't think you can find the actual test format let alone actual test items unless you take it. And my then 3rd grader was not able to tell me the test format after he took it.

But what you said in your first paragraph is exactly why people prep. It is a learning process as well. That is why some parents/students feel that prepping is useful.

I like the idea of doing a randomized experiment of assigning kids to A-Plus classes. If it does half of what the critics of prepping say, I will be willing to sponsor a few kids to do the program.

Huh? Translation, please!

Simply knowing that it's the COGAT doesn't help as much as some claim since it's a proprietary test and the format and questions are closely guarded.

This!

Except a great deal is know about the types of questions and the format.

Here is a website for COGAT. Your kid still have to practise though!

https://www.testprep-online.com/cogat-practice-tests

[Anonymous]

My kid got into the CES (then HGC), Eastern and TPMS magnate, and later, the Blair magnet, CAP, RMIB, and Wheaton magnet.

Zero prep.

[Anonymous]

I have had two of my three kids in HGC, one finish magnet middle and about to start magnet HS, and the other going into magnet MS. My oldest is not in the magnet system because we moved here from another state and it was too late for him to test.

What really infuriates me about this debate is how it turns parents on each other, all scrambling for limited spaces in the magnet programs when the real issue is why MCPS keeps the pie so small, and why it does such a terrible job of differentiating and accelerating kids who would thrive under acceleration throughout the school system while keeping them in their home schools. Newsflash -- the magnet programs are *not all that accelerated* in HGC and MS. My kid who went to a school system for K-5 in another state -- with no HGC label -- got just as good or better content and instruction in English, math, and science. There are far more kids in ES who would do just as well in the HGC as my kids or any of their classmates than are given the curriculum and instruction they need based on their potential. Hell, growing up and moving around multiple times to multiple school systems *I* got far better instruction, especially in English, than my HGC kids and magnet MS kid have gotten. The Eastern MS humanities curriculum is certainly *better* than the home MS humanities curriculum in our experience, but not actually all that different than regular instruction and curricula in high-performing school districts elsewhere that don't bear a G/T label.

The magnet programs here are not designed for the "tippy top" of brilliant children. These truly are not "gifted" programs in the most rigorous sense of that word. They're designed for smart and eager students who are able to go beyond what the current (poor) mainstream MCPS curriculum offers, and there are far more kids who fit that description than MCPS makes room for in its programs. And remember what Edison said about genius -- 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration and all that. When, with support and some catch-up coaching, kids whose learning opportunities to date have been short-changed by whatever combination of poor curriculum, poor instruction, and/or life circumstances that have not given them the opportunities and supports to do their best work can succeed in these higher-quality programs, the answer is not, from the school system side, to engage in social engineering to promote access for some and deny access to others. Neither should it be, from the parental side, to spend so much time prepping our individual kids so they have a leg up over other kids because we have the resources to coach them for the tests that were never designed in the first place to be the sole determinant of a kid's ability to do more challenging work.

Just think if all the parents who put so much money and effort into prepping their kids to fight for a slice of the tiny pie would devote even a fraction of their time to advocating for systemic change to make that pie bigger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have had two of my three kids in HGC, one finish magnet middle and about to start magnet HS, and the other going into magnet MS. My oldest is not in the magnet system because we moved here from another state and it was too late for him to test.

What really infuriates me about this debate is how it turns parents on each other, all scrambling for limited spaces in the magnet programs when the real issue is why MCPS keeps the pie so small, and why it does such a terrible job of differentiating and accelerating kids who would thrive under acceleration throughout the school system while keeping them in their home schools. Newsflash -- the magnet programs are *not all that accelerated* in HGC and MS. My kid who went to a school system for K-5 in another state -- with no HGC label -- got just as good or better content and instruction in English, math, and science. There are far more kids in ES who would do just as well in the HGC as my kids or any of their classmates than are given the curriculum and instruction they need based on their potential. Hell, growing up and moving around multiple times to multiple school systems *I* got far better instruction, especially in English, than my HGC kids and magnet MS kid have gotten. The Eastern MS humanities curriculum is certainly *better* than the home MS humanities curriculum in our experience, but not actually all that different than regular instruction and curricula in high-performing school districts elsewhere that don't bear a G/T label.

The magnet programs here are not designed for the "tippy top" of brilliant children. These truly are not "gifted" programs in the most rigorous sense of that word. They're designed for smart and eager students who are able to go beyond what the current (poor) mainstream MCPS curriculum offers, and there are far more kids who fit that description than MCPS makes room for in its programs. And remember what Edison said about genius -- 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration and all that. When, with support and some catch-up coaching, kids whose learning opportunities to date have been short-changed by whatever combination of poor curriculum, poor instruction, and/or life circumstances that have not given them the opportunities and supports to do their best work can succeed in these higher-quality programs, the answer is not, from the school system side, to engage in social engineering to promote access for some and deny access to others. Neither should it be, from the parental side, to spend so much time prepping our individual kids so they have a leg up over other kids because we have the resources to coach them for the tests that were never designed in the first place to be the sole determinant of a kid's ability to do more challenging work.

Just think if all the parents who put so much money and effort into prepping their kids to fight for a slice of the tiny pie would devote even a fraction of their time to advocating for systemic change to make that pie bigger.

The problem is that most don’t want the pie to be bigger. They want classrooms that look a certain way and the ability to brag how advanced their child is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have had two of my three kids in HGC, one finish magnet middle and about to start magnet HS, and the other going into magnet MS. My oldest is not in the magnet system because we moved here from another state and it was too late for him to test.

What really infuriates me about this debate is how it turns parents on each other, all scrambling for limited spaces in the magnet programs when the real issue is why MCPS keeps the pie so small, and why it does such a terrible job of differentiating and accelerating kids who would thrive under acceleration throughout the school system while keeping them in their home schools. Newsflash -- the magnet programs are *not all that accelerated* in HGC and MS. My kid who went to a school system for K-5 in another state -- with no HGC label -- got just as good or better content and instruction in English, math, and science. There are far more kids in ES who would do just as well in the HGC as my kids or any of their classmates than are given the curriculum and instruction they need based on their potential. Hell, growing up and moving around multiple times to multiple school systems *I* got far better instruction, especially in English, than my HGC kids and magnet MS kid have gotten. The Eastern MS humanities curriculum is certainly *better* than the home MS humanities curriculum in our experience, but not actually all that different than regular instruction and curricula in high-performing school districts elsewhere that don't bear a G/T label.

The magnet programs here are not designed for the "tippy top" of brilliant children. These truly are not "gifted" programs in the most rigorous sense of that word. They're designed for smart and eager students who are able to go beyond what the current (poor) mainstream MCPS curriculum offers, and there are far more kids who fit that description than MCPS makes room for in its programs. And remember what Edison said about genius -- 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration and all that. When, with support and some catch-up coaching, kids whose learning opportunities to date have been short-changed by whatever combination of poor curriculum, poor instruction, and/or life circumstances that have not given them the opportunities and supports to do their best work can succeed in these higher-quality programs, the answer is not, from the school system side, to engage in social engineering to promote access for some and deny access to others. Neither should it be, from the parental side, to spend so much time prepping our individual kids so they have a leg up over other kids because we have the resources to coach them for the tests that were never designed in the first place to be the sole determinant of a kid's ability to do more challenging work.

Just think if all the parents who put so much money and effort into prepping their kids to fight for a slice of the tiny pie would devote even a fraction of their time to advocating for systemic change to make that pie bigger.

The problem is that most don’t want the pie to be bigger. They want classrooms that look a certain way and the ability to brag how advanced their child is.

These are programs for the highly gifted - maybe top 1%+ -- IQ around 150+. That's a different group than gifted, which is top 2-3% -- IQ 130. As a parent who has children in both categories, I can tell you they have very different needs. MCPS and parents need to recognize these differences and have programs for both groups.

[Anonymous]

Because of the short acceptant rate of these gifted programs, many intelligent brilliant minded kids are being left out. I believe if education as such or these gifted programs was expanded to allow more students to be accepted we wouldn’t need to incorporate kids from outside states and such. Gifted program education would help give advanced equal learning for all so no child whom could not be picked due to the limited seating would be able learn together to receive the education they are fit for.

[Anonymous]

No gifted child needs to prep, study or be tutored. The gift of intelligence, smarts and knowledge is either there or not there.

No child who is behind due to achievement gap should also prep, study or be tutored. The gift of intelligence, smarts and knowledge is either there or not there.