Jewish people: how do you view Christianity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Orthodox Jews in general can marry converts (with a few exceptions) who went an orthodox conversion.

E.g., Ivanka trump and Karlie Kloss.

[Anonymous]

Dumb question here...

If OP's DD converts, and a decade later they divorce for whatever reason, would that impact custody of the kids? What if DD wantsbto become a Christian again?

(I would support my kids to convert to religion X is they truly believe in religion X, but I'd be very suspicious if either wanted to do so as a response to fiance's demands)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dumb question here...

If OP's DD converts, and a decade later they divorce for whatever reason, would that impact custody of the kids? What if DD wantsbto become a Christian again?

(I would support my kids to convert to religion X is they truly believe in religion X, but I'd be very suspicious if either wanted to do so as a response to fiance's demands)

It's an interesting question actually because assuming they have a religious ceremony, they will have a Jewish marriage license as well as a secular one. Which means that in order to get divorced and re-married religiously, the man must give the woman a "get" -- a permission. If he doesn't, she can't have a religiously sanctioned second marriage. (Doesn't impact civil marriage of course) Presumably if there were re-conversion considerations that could be an issue.

However, you are assuming that she is converting just to marry him and has no interest in it of her own accord. Most such conversions would not be blessed by a rabbi. Jews do not proselytize or seek to convert people. Converts are welcomed once they convert, but conversions require genuine faith and desire to convert, and a lot of work. You have to take a class, there are religious rituals associated -- it's not just an affirmation of faith -- it's not for the faint-hearted. And most rabbis will want to be sure that she genuinely wants to convert and isn't just doing so to marry her husband. So while of course a decade later she could decide to go back to her Christian faith, it's a lot to assume for someone who has genuinely converted, joined a community, raised a family in that community, etc.

I have a couple Jewish family members whose origins are Christian. Pretty sure my aunt, who never formally converted to Judaism from Catholicism but has practiced Judaism for 40 years and has raised Jewish children, would not suddenly up and become a Catholic if she divorced my uncle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dumb question here...

If OP's DD converts, and a decade later they divorce for whatever reason, would that impact custody of the kids? What if DD wantsbto become a Christian again?

(I would support my kids to convert to religion X is they truly believe in religion X, but I'd be very suspicious if either wanted to do so as a response to fiance's demands)

Custody is a civil matter, so I am not sure how it would effect that.

If you mean would it impact the Jewish status of the kids, the answer is maybe. There is a notion in Jewish law that a ger (a convert) who goes back, was never a sincere convert to begin with, and so is considered never to have become a Jew. OTOH most rabbis (and rabbinic courts) would I think, try to avoid creating problems for children who have been raised as Jews in a situation like this, so they might be inclined to not annul the conversion.

If they did the kids could convert themselves, and could probably do so in a simpler than standard ceremony that recognized that in some sense they were already Jews "giyur lechumra" (IE a conversion for strictness)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dumb question here...

If OP's DD converts, and a decade later they divorce for whatever reason, would that impact custody of the kids? What if DD wantsbto become a Christian again?

(I would support my kids to convert to religion X is they truly believe in religion X, but I'd be very suspicious if either wanted to do so as a response to fiance's demands)

It's an interesting question actually because assuming they have a religious ceremony, they will have a Jewish marriage license as well as a secular one. Which means that in order to get divorced and re-married religiously, the man must give the woman a "get" -- a permission. If he doesn't, she can't have a religiously sanctioned second marriage. (Doesn't impact civil marriage of course) Presumably if there were re-conversion considerations that could be an issue.

However, you are assuming that she is converting just to marry him and has no interest in it of her own accord. Most such conversions would not be blessed by a rabbi. Jews do not proselytize or seek to convert people. Converts are welcomed once they convert, but conversions require genuine faith and desire to convert, and a lot of work. You have to take a class, there are religious rituals associated -- it's not just an affirmation of faith -- it's not for the faint-hearted. And most rabbis will want to be sure that she genuinely wants to convert and isn't just doing so to marry her husband. So while of course a decade later she could decide to go back to her Christian faith, it's a lot to assume for someone who has genuinely converted, joined a community, raised a family in that community, etc.

I have a couple Jewish family members whose origins are Christian. Pretty sure my aunt, who never formally converted to Judaism from Catholicism but has practiced Judaism for 40 years and has raised Jewish children, would not suddenly up and become a Catholic if she divorced my uncle.

Thank you so much for the thoughtful answer.

I have a few friends who converted, all because of marriage, and I know it is quite a process.

Now, how can a rabbi ascertain that the desire is pure and independent of marriage, when (in my limited experience) it is always precisely because of marriage?

For example, could OP's DD go though the same exact process and become Jewish were she not planning to marry a Jewish fiance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dumb question here...

If OP's DD converts, and a decade later they divorce for whatever reason, would that impact custody of the kids? What if DD wantsbto become a Christian again?

(I would support my kids to convert to religion X is they truly believe in religion X, but I'd be very suspicious if either wanted to do so as a response to fiance's demands)

It's an interesting question actually because assuming they have a religious ceremony, they will have a Jewish marriage license as well as a secular one. Which means that in order to get divorced and re-married religiously, the man must give the woman a "get" -- a permission. If he doesn't, she can't have a religiously sanctioned second marriage. (Doesn't impact civil marriage of course) Presumably if there were re-conversion considerations that could be an issue.

However, you are assuming that she is converting just to marry him and has no interest in it of her own accord. Most such conversions would not be blessed by a rabbi. Jews do not proselytize or seek to convert people. Converts are welcomed once they convert, but conversions require genuine faith and desire to convert, and a lot of work. You have to take a class, there are religious rituals associated -- it's not just an affirmation of faith -- it's not for the faint-hearted. And most rabbis will want to be sure that she genuinely wants to convert and isn't just doing so to marry her husband. So while of course a decade later she could decide to go back to her Christian faith, it's a lot to assume for someone who has genuinely converted, joined a community, raised a family in that community, etc.

I have a couple Jewish family members whose origins are Christian. Pretty sure my aunt, who never formally converted to Judaism from Catholicism but has practiced Judaism for 40 years and has raised Jewish children, would not suddenly up and become a Catholic if she divorced my uncle.

Thank you so much for the thoughtful answer.

I have a few friends who converted, all because of marriage, and I know it is quite a process.

Now, how can a rabbi ascertain that the desire is pure and independent of marriage, when (in my limited experience) it is always precisely because of marriage?

For example, could OP's DD go though the same exact process and become Jewish were she not planning to marry a Jewish fiance?

Yes, she absolutely could. Nothing about the conversation process is contingent on marrying into the faith. It's supposed to be a pure motivation on the part of the convert.

As for how they ascertain that the desire is pure and independent, they ask. I've never done the process nor inquired deeply of those I know who have, since I felt like it would be rude, but I imagine there is some sort of affirmation you're supposed to make.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dumb question here...

If OP's DD converts, and a decade later they divorce for whatever reason, would that impact custody of the kids? What if DD wantsbto become a Christian again?

(I would support my kids to convert to religion X is they truly believe in religion X, but I'd be very suspicious if either wanted to do so as a response to fiance's demands)

It's an interesting question actually because assuming they have a religious ceremony, they will have a Jewish marriage license as well as a secular one. Which means that in order to get divorced and re-married religiously, the man must give the woman a "get" -- a permission. If he doesn't, she can't have a religiously sanctioned second marriage. (Doesn't impact civil marriage of course) Presumably if there were re-conversion considerations that could be an issue.

However, you are assuming that she is converting just to marry him and has no interest in it of her own accord. Most such conversions would not be blessed by a rabbi. Jews do not proselytize or seek to convert people. Converts are welcomed once they convert, but conversions require genuine faith and desire to convert, and a lot of work. You have to take a class, there are religious rituals associated -- it's not just an affirmation of faith -- it's not for the faint-hearted. And most rabbis will want to be sure that she genuinely wants to convert and isn't just doing so to marry her husband. So while of course a decade later she could decide to go back to her Christian faith, it's a lot to assume for someone who has genuinely converted, joined a community, raised a family in that community, etc.

I have a couple Jewish family members whose origins are Christian. Pretty sure my aunt, who never formally converted to Judaism from Catholicism but has practiced Judaism for 40 years and has raised Jewish children, would not suddenly up and become a Catholic if she divorced my uncle.

Thank you so much for the thoughtful answer.

I have a few friends who converted, all because of marriage, and I know it is quite a process.

Now, how can a rabbi ascertain that the desire is pure and independent of marriage, when (in my limited experience) it is always precisely because of marriage?

For example, could OP's DD go though the same exact process and become Jewish were she not planning to marry a Jewish fiance?

Yes, she absolutely could. Nothing about the conversation process is contingent on marrying into the faith. It's supposed to be a pure motivation on the part of the convert.

As for how they ascertain that the desire is pure and independent, they ask. I've never done the process nor inquired deeply of those I know who have, since I felt like it would be rude, but I imagine there is some sort of affirmation you're supposed to make.

Thank you for the answer

[Anonymous]

Update: my daughter is converting and when she has completed the process, they will marry. It will take a year at least. She is going to sign a prenup that ensures their children will be raised Jewish.

The dinner was great and I think her boyfriend/fiancé is a wonderful man.

The only issue I have is that his mother is disappointed he is marrying a convert. I respect my daughter’s decision and their decision as a couple, and I am trying hard to be respectful of the process. I am excited but also don’t want to be question lady. He was quite good-looking and extremely warm and welcoming and kind. He knocked my socks off! They want to have a large family, which is weird because my daughter has never expressed that desire before. I also appreciate he was honest about his mom. He said he will always love and respect his mom but he loves my daughter completely and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. I think he was worried I would be resistant but it’s not my life or choice. I will support them.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I am mostly excited I am hopefully going to have some gorgeous grandchildren someday. I did think about how they will be unable to experience Easter or Christmas, but there’s lots of good things they will have in their lives and that’s all that matters. My daughter is over the moon so over the moon I go with her.

I wonder if grandchildren will think their non-Jewish grandparents are “weird?” I will do anything that encourages a good relationship with them and respect their religion and lifestyle, I hope that is not a disrespectful way of terming it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Update: my daughter is converting and when she has completed the process, they will marry. It will take a year at least. She is going to sign a prenup that ensures their children will be raised Jewish.

The dinner was great and I think her boyfriend/fiancé is a wonderful man.

The only issue I have is that his mother is disappointed he is marrying a convert. I respect my daughter’s decision and their decision as a couple, and I am trying hard to be respectful of the process. I am excited but also don’t want to be question lady. He was quite good-looking and extremely warm and welcoming and kind. He knocked my socks off! They want to have a large family, which is weird because my daughter has never expressed that desire before. I also appreciate he was honest about his mom. He said he will always love and respect his mom but he loves my daughter completely and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. I think he was worried I would be resistant but it’s not my life or choice. I will support them.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I am mostly excited I am hopefully going to have some gorgeous grandchildren someday. I did think about how they will be unable to experience Easter or Christmas, but there’s lots of good things they will have in their lives and that’s all that matters. My daughter is over the moon so over the moon I go with her.

I wonder if grandchildren will think their non-Jewish grandparents are “weird?” I will do anything that encourages a good relationship with them and respect their religion and lifestyle, I hope that is not a disrespectful way of terming it.

No,they won't think you're weird. I mean, they will if you're weird. But being of a different religion is not weird, it's just different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Update: my daughter is converting and when she has completed the process, they will marry. It will take a year at least. She is going to sign a prenup that ensures their children will be raised Jewish.

The dinner was great and I think her boyfriend/fiancé is a wonderful man.

The only issue I have is that his mother is disappointed he is marrying a convert. I respect my daughter’s decision and their decision as a couple, and I am trying hard to be respectful of the process. I am excited but also don’t want to be question lady. He was quite good-looking and extremely warm and welcoming and kind. He knocked my socks off! They want to have a large family, which is weird because my daughter has never expressed that desire before. I also appreciate he was honest about his mom. He said he will always love and respect his mom but he loves my daughter completely and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. I think he was worried I would be resistant but it’s not my life or choice. I will support them.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I am mostly excited I am hopefully going to have some gorgeous grandchildren someday. I did think about how they will be unable to experience Easter or Christmas, but there’s lots of good things they will have in their lives and that’s all that matters. My daughter is over the moon so over the moon I go with her.

I wonder if grandchildren will think their non-Jewish grandparents are “weird?” I will do anything that encourages a good relationship with them and respect their religion and lifestyle, I hope that is not a disrespectful way of terming it.

No,they won't think you're weird. I mean, they will if you're weird. But being of a different religion is not weird, it's just different.

Ha! Great answer! Will hide weirdness. Thank you!

[Anonymous]

The mother is disappointed that her son is marrying a convert, and has expressed this before the couple is married, even made it known to you?
I would recommend that the couple do not live in the same city as MIL
Too much meddling, your daughter is already not good enough

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The mother is disappointed that her son is marrying a convert, and has expressed this before the couple is married, even made it known to you?
I would recommend that the couple do not live in the same city as MIL
Too much meddling, your daughter is already not good enough

They don’t and won’t. The parents live in NYC. Dd and fiancé live in very far away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The only issue I have is that his mother is disappointed he is marrying a convert.

I am very disappointed that the mother is in violation of Jewish law, which says we must treat sincere converts as full Jews.

I mean I can understand if she was looking forward to having a Jewish machatones (IE you) and now will miss that particular social connection, but she is, I think, positively obligated by Jewish law to hide any such concern.

I pray that she becomes learned enough in halacha to realize the honor we as a people are to grant to converts.

https://www.ou.org/torah/tefillah/shemoneh-esrei/shemoneh_esrei_13/

The prayer identifies six categories of deserving individuals: (1) Tzaddikim – the righteous, those motivated by justice, who are meticulous in mitzvos; (2) Chasidim – the pious, those motivated by love, who go beyond the letter of the law; (3) Ziknei Amcha – the elders of the nation, the spiritual leaders of the people; (4) Pleitas Sofreihem – the remnant of the nation’s teachers, those select few who dedicate their lives to teaching Torah; (5) Geirei HaTzedek – sincere converts, who left their old lives behind to cling to the Jewish people; and (6) Aleinu – us, the simple but well-meaning Jews, even if we’re nothing special. We pray that all of these, including ourselves, enjoy God’s mercy.


Good shabbos to all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Update: my daughter is converting and when she has completed the process, they will marry. It will take a year at least. She is going to sign a prenup that ensures their children will be raised Jewish.

The dinner was great and I think her boyfriend/fiancé is a wonderful man.

The only issue I have is that his mother is disappointed he is marrying a convert. I respect my daughter’s decision and their decision as a couple, and I am trying hard to be respectful of the process. I am excited but also don’t want to be question lady. He was quite good-looking and extremely warm and welcoming and kind. He knocked my socks off! They want to have a large family, which is weird because my daughter has never expressed that desire before. I also appreciate he was honest about his mom. He said he will always love and respect his mom but he loves my daughter completely and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. I think he was worried I would be resistant but it’s not my life or choice. I will support them.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. I am mostly excited I am hopefully going to have some gorgeous grandchildren someday. I did think about how they will be unable to experience Easter or Christmas, but there’s lots of good things they will have in their lives and that’s all that matters. My daughter is over the moon so over the moon I go with her.

I wonder if grandchildren will think their non-Jewish grandparents are “weird?” I will do anything that encourages a good relationship with them and respect their religion and lifestyle, I hope that is not a disrespectful way of terming it.

Hi OP - you sound like you are a great Mom and a soon-to-be awesome MIL!

I'm coming to this conversation late, but I was raised Protestant, married a Jew, am raising our kids Jewish, and in the process of converting. Yes, it took me a lot longer to get there than your daughter did!

As for my family, my kids always knew that I grew up as a Christian with Christian holidays. We also celebrated those holidays - in a secular way - in my parents' or siblings' houses. We never went to church with them, and didn't do Santa or the Easter Bunny, but rather my kids got gifts from my side of the family (and we gave gifts as well). They will all be in attendance at my kids' - and my - bar mitzvahs. Best of all, my ILs and my family get along quite well. Respect and love for family really is a key value for all of us.

Mazel tov to you and your daughter!

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for this info. Dd’s fiancé didn’t belabor the issue but said no woman would meet his mom’s standards and she will accept his marriage as long as my daughter converts and their children are raised Jewish. He said he took his current job so he could be independent and live his life...but also is committed to his religion and parents. He made it clear to me he will always make sure my dd is respected. They go to counseling to deal with this issue and I was glad to hear it. My dd is not worried too much because they live far away and will only see his family for special occasions or brief trips due to work schedules anyway. He made me feel comfortable and a part of his family already. Part of me is sad because we too will see them occasionally but that’s how it goes sometimes. Thank you all again.