Emotional disability and highly gifted, age 6...what next?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would schedule her for ADOS to evaluate her for autism. HFA in girls does not present in the same way as boys AND a psycheducational eval finding "signs of autism but not enough' should not rule out autism in a girl without ADOS.

If she is on the spectrum, it will be much easier to get her into the Asperger's program.

ADOS under diagnoses girls. If you are concerned about ASD, make sure you go to someone who has experience with girls. I recommend Dr. David Black.

True, girls can better "fake it" socially. We used Dr. Black for DS but can recommend Children's neuropsych dept under Lauren Kenworthy for ADOS.

[Anonymous]

I don't think an ADOS is necessary now. OP seems to have a handle on the main issues and has plenty of other things to work on at this point. If at some point social issues become more of a concern she could go back for more testing. Her child is still young and many social issues for kids with Asperger's may take until 3rd grade or higher to tease out.

OP you haven't talked about your child's emotional health. How is she reacting to everyone's reaction to her behavior? Is she happy at the school or does she tell you she wants to leave? These are key questions that would drive my decisions about where to place her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would schedule her for ADOS to evaluate her for autism. HFA in girls does not present in the same way as boys AND a psycheducational eval finding "signs of autism but not enough' should not rule out autism in a girl without ADOS.

If she is on the spectrum, it will be much easier to get her into the Asperger's program.

ADOS under diagnoses girls. If you are concerned about ASD, make sure you go to someone who has experience with girls. I recommend Dr. David Black.

True, girls can better "fake it" socially. We used Dr. Black for DS but can recommend Children's neuropsych dept under Lauren Kenworthy for ADOS.

Doesn't everyone "fake it" socially sometimes? I have never understood the talk of how autism presents differently in girls. DS has some ASD tendencies but ASD was ruled out by ADOS and other providers, but many of the descriptions of how girls with ASD present seem familiar to me. If he happened to be a girl but with the same issues would he get a diagnosis? Seems arbitrary.

[Anonymous]

She went from loving it to being scared of it. Many mornings she complains of a tummy ache before drop-off. But other mornings she is fine. There is no discernable pattern, even though there must be. She was very happy during spring break in contrast.

The psychologist did some tests where she had to complete sentences like "I like kids who..." and another involving making up stories based on pictures, the Roberts test I think. She tended to have negative, somewhat fear-based answers about peers, and teachers, except for friends she could name. The consistency between the two tests, which were given a week apart, was remarkable in terms of the kinds of responses and attitudes she gave and had.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think an ADOS is necessary now. OP seems to have a handle on the main issues and has plenty of other things to work on at this point. If at some point social issues become more of a concern she could go back for more testing. Her child is still young and many social issues for kids with Asperger's may take until 3rd grade or higher to tease out.

OP you haven't talked about your child's emotional health. How is she reacting to everyone's reaction to her behavior? Is she happy at the school or does she tell you she wants to leave? These are key questions that would drive my decisions about where to place her.

I disagree since MCPS is talking school placement NOW. I'm pretty shocked that at age 6 and given all the background that the private evaluator didn't include it.

[Anonymous]

ASD is more than just about social skills. Mental inflexibility, the inability to apply skills to new situations, and sensory issues, along with very commonly comorbid anxiety can cause a lot of behavioral issues like OP described.

High IQ and LD can also cause school refusal and tantrums. A bright child can be very conscious of their LD even if they don't have a name for it and refuse all activities related to the LD to minimize fear of failure and anxiety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ASD is more than just about social skills. Mental inflexibility, the inability to apply skills to new situations, and sensory issues, along with very commonly comorbid anxiety can cause a lot of behavioral issues like OP described.

High IQ and LD can also cause school refusal and tantrums. A bright child can be very conscious of their LD even if they don't have a name for it and refuse all activities related to the LD to minimize fear of failure and anxiety.

This is me again ... just wanted to add that clearly OPS DD is having problems but it's unclear why. My experience has been that ED lends itself to treating the symptoms (behavior) rather than identifying the underlying causes of the behavior. A FBA/BIP is a good first step but given the other information and the established fact that girls are under diagnosed with ASD would indicate to me that more comprehensive testing with an expert in the field is in order.

[Anonymous]

137 is not highly gifted. Also the testing sounds wonky. I'd wait simply. On all of the further testing. She's struggling. What does she need? Can you do a private for a couple years?

[Anonymous]

also if Ritalin isn't taking care of lot of this I would say there's other things at play. She sounds like she has autism to be frank. I'd start some sort of behavior therapy. Nobody cares if she has a borderline gifted IQ if she can't behave. I'm speaking as the mom of a smart kid with serious behavior issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would schedule her for ADOS to evaluate her for autism. HFA in girls does not present in the same way as boys AND a psycheducational eval finding "signs of autism but not enough' should not rule out autism in a girl without ADOS.

If she is on the spectrum, it will be much easier to get her into the Asperger's program.

ADOS under diagnoses girls. If you are concerned about ASD, make sure you go to someone who has experience with girls. I recommend Dr. David Black.

True, girls can better "fake it" socially. We used Dr. Black for DS but can recommend Children's neuropsych dept under Lauren Kenworthy for ADOS.

Doesn't everyone "fake it" socially sometimes? I have never understood the talk of how autism presents differently in girls. DS has some ASD tendencies but ASD was ruled out by ADOS and other providers, but many of the descriptions of how girls with ASD present seem familiar to me. If he happened to be a girl but with the same issues would he get a diagnosis? Seems arbitrary.

This deserves its own thread, but one example is that one stereotypical boy asperger interest is trains and elevators. Those are kind of wonky interests, so a boy with those obsessive interests stands out. Girls are very rarely interested in those things but they might, for example, be obsessively interested in horses. Horses is a pretty typical interest, so the obsessiveness associated with asperger's would be harder to pick up. It's not a more vs less, but just different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would schedule her for ADOS to evaluate her for autism. HFA in girls does not present in the same way as boys AND a psycheducational eval finding "signs of autism but not enough' should not rule out autism in a girl without ADOS.

If she is on the spectrum, it will be much easier to get her into the Asperger's program.

ADOS under diagnoses girls. If you are concerned about ASD, make sure you go to someone who has experience with girls. I recommend Dr. David Black.

True, girls can better "fake it" socially. We used Dr. Black for DS but can recommend Children's neuropsych dept under Lauren Kenworthy for ADOS.

Doesn't everyone "fake it" socially sometimes? I have never understood the talk of how autism presents differently in girls. DS has some ASD tendencies but ASD was ruled out by ADOS and other providers, but many of the descriptions of how girls with ASD present seem familiar to me. If he happened to be a girl but with the same issues would he get a diagnosis? Seems arbitrary.

This deserves its own thread, but one example is that one stereotypical boy asperger interest is trains and elevators. Those are kind of wonky interests, so a boy with those obsessive interests stands out. Girls are very rarely interested in those things but they might, for example, be obsessively interested in horses. Horses is a pretty typical interest, so the obsessiveness associated with asperger's would be harder to pick up. It's not a more vs less, but just different.

Here's one article about the differences and why it leads to girls more likely to remain undiagnosed: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/autism-in-women-girls_us_58f6312ae4b0bb9638e6aee6

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:also if Ritalin isn't taking care of lot of this I would say there's other things at play. She sounds like she has autism to be frank. I'd start some sort of behavior therapy. Nobody cares if she has a borderline gifted IQ if she can't behave. I'm speaking as the mom of a smart kid with serious behavior issues.

I really hate posts like yours. OP is not using the child's IQ as some sort of excuse or to brag. Her IQ is part of the overall picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:137 is not highly gifted. Also the testing sounds wonky. I'd wait simply. On all of the further testing. She's struggling. What does she need? Can you do a private for a couple years?

Seems interesting that over here PPs are chiming in that a 137 isn't highly gifted, but in the MD schools forum it's common to hear that the HGC cutoff is below that level. I realize that's not saying the same thing, but I understood one of OPs original reasons for mentioning the IQ was in reference to the GTLD program. Is the IQ for GTLD higher than for HGC (or am I mis-remembering the HGC cutoff as ~133?)? Or are other PPs just indicating that they don't feel that an IQ of 137 is high enough that boredom is the likely cause of the behavior issues?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How high is her IQ? Big difference between 130 and 145+. Is her verbal IQ lower than her perceptual reasoning? Or are they both high?

Eh, not really: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm

"There is the numerical answer: a child of IQ 160 is as different from a moderately gifted child of 130, as that child is from an average child of 100. But IQ scores are no longer derived from a ratio, with the numerical difference between scores indicating the variation. Today's IQ tests score on a curve, so that the difference between 100 and 115 is far less than the difference between 130 and 145, and the difference between 130 and 145 is far less than the difference between 145 and 160, though the ranges appear similar numerically.

And there are lots of different levels of development to consider in each child. There is intellectual development, the development measured by an IQ test. There is also physical development - gross and fine motor skills, social and emotional development, and spiritual development. And all of these development levels characterize the gifted child."

Yeah really. An IQ of 130 is equal to or higher than every 2 out of 100 kids.- 2 Standard Deviations away from mean. So if a school has 100 kids you would expect to find about 20 students with that IQ or higher (and you would find more students with that IQ at a higher SES school and not as many at a low SES school since there is a strong correlation between a mother's level of education and her child's IQ). Once you get to 145 the percentile rank is 99.9 -3 Standard Deviatiins from the mean . That is equal to or higher than 1 out of 1000 students. That student might not have an intellectual peer group at the school.
An IQ of 137 is plenty gifted. If there are no issue at home and there are issues at school, I would really look into how she does in the community. If there aren't issues in the community- she owes fine at outside classes, play dates, camps, then I would wonder if you just haven't found the right school for her.

Can someone clarify this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How high is her IQ? Big difference between 130 and 145+. Is her verbal IQ lower than her perceptual reasoning? Or are they both high?

Eh, not really: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm

"There is the numerical answer: a child of IQ 160 is as different from a moderately gifted child of 130, as that child is from an average child of 100. But IQ scores are no longer derived from a ratio, with the numerical difference between scores indicating the variation. Today's IQ tests score on a curve, so that the difference between 100 and 115 is far less than the difference between 130 and 145, and the difference between 130 and 145 is far less than the difference between 145 and 160, though the ranges appear similar numerically.

And there are lots of different levels of development to consider in each child. There is intellectual development, the development measured by an IQ test. There is also physical development - gross and fine motor skills, social and emotional development, and spiritual development. And all of these development levels characterize the gifted child."

Yeah really. An IQ of 130 is equal to or higher than every 2 out of 100 kids.- 2 Standard Deviations away from mean. So if a school has 100 kids you would expect to find about 20 students with that IQ or higher (and you would find more students with that IQ at a higher SES school and not as many at a low SES school since there is a strong correlation between a mother's level of education and her child's IQ). Once you get to 145 the percentile rank is 99.9 -3 Standard Deviatiins from the mean . That is equal to or higher than 1 out of 1000 students. That student might not have an intellectual peer group at the school.
An IQ of 137 is plenty gifted. If there are no issue at home and there are issues at school, I would really look into how she does in the community. If there aren't issues in the community- she owes fine at outside classes, play dates, camps, then I would wonder if you just haven't found the right school for her.

Can someone clarify this?

No, the PP's math is wrong. Like the PP noted, a 130 IQ is the 98th percentile, so out of 100 kids, higher than 98 of them. So in a class of 100 that has a normal distribution, you would expect 2 kids (not 20) to have an IQ of 130 or higher.