the crazy expense of joining a synagogue!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: What throws me is how many fellow parishioners have mentioned to me that they don't support the church financially -- despite the fact that this is a pretty affluent congregation on the whole.

That is why the priests practice the 80/20 rule. 20% provide 80% of the funds so focus on the 20%.
Sad but true.
You will get your pie in the sky regardless of how much money you throw on the altar. Priests and their families are not poor.
I personally think that when men are the only ones with the say, they should pay for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just another perspective on synogogues being involved in the local community--when I grew up my temple did lots of community giving and outreach events and I know that to be true of many congregations in this area as well.

This has been my experience with synagogue-based charity, too. I would caution, though, that issues should be examined from all sides. I don't see why it is necessarily more virtuous to support local causes. I think you can also argue that we have a particular obligation to support members of the Jewish community who need help. Our probably unprecedented American affluence is really only two generations old (I guess our kids are the third). Jewish communities in some other parts of the world have faced tough social service situations in more recent times. When I was a kid, the issue was Soviet Jews who needed post-immigration support, then former FSU communities where we have ancestral roots (and perhaps family ties) were struggling. Sadly, it is considered increasingly permissible now to say that one shouldn't send money to any Israeli causes, even social service ones.

I'm sorry the "recovered" Orthodox PP objected. I disagree. There's no shortage of people who need charitable contributions worldwide, but we have historically seen that we have to be ready to help other Jews ourselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another board member of a synagogue here (not the PP). We are a lefty liberal reform congregation operating on a very small budget, etc. I just wanted to point out a few things. First, remember that the congregations we are discussing here (and mine has a similar dues structure) use a "fair share" or progressive approach. No one is asking for a flat fee of anything approaching $8000. The rate is 2 percent of your income (with some deductions, adjustments, etc.). So, for the vast majority of people, it is only about 2 K a year. So it is only at high incomes that using that sort of dues structure can give you some high numbers. Second, no one is going to complain and/or check whether you are giving your 2 percent. It's really more of a suggestion than a rule, particularly at the high end. We are very active and high income, so our giving ends up at around $15k per year but that's very unusual.

Having said all that, I understand why someone who only wants to go to the place once or twice a year would be reluctant to pay that. In fact, we would not particularly want someone who only wants to come that seldom to commit to membership because they are not really acting as a member. To OP, I would follow the suggestions of others and look around for a place that you want to be more involved with and then, if you get more involved, join there. Otherwise, you might as well just stick to high holy days.

To the PP who used to be active in a small community but felt lost here, I would suggest looking around, particularly at some of the smaller congregations in town. You might just not have found the right fit for you. I know there are congregations, including certainly my own, that would be very welcoming to your spouse. So maybe keep trying to find the right fit.

What is the name of this synagogue and where do I sign up?

[Anonymous]

Granted I didn't read all the posts... but the first few were fascinating...I had no idea Judaism was so expensive!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's no requirement of payment to pray in a synagogue. You can go in anytime and pray, go to services, etc. No one is turned away. The PPs are talking about membership -- i.e., the right to hold your wedding, bar mitzvah, etc. there.

OH, OK!! Now it makes sense And you don't have to pay for hte wedding and bar mitzvah right when the time comes right?

I know catholic churches have a fee for those kind of events - baptism, wedding, etc... and it varies according to how much in demand the church is.

There is no fee in a Catholic Church for those events. Typically, you make a donation to the Church or priest for a wedding or baptism, and the amount is completely up to you.

I disagree. When my husband and I married in a local Catholic church we were told what the donation amount would be. It was $300-that was ten years ago. I think there are often standard donation amounts that are expected for weddings. Sorry I know we're OT here.

[Anonymous]

"and if you were Catholic, you would be tithing something like $20 (or more?) per person for 52 weeks per year, so it would also add up"

Not true -- there are no dues and no rules or expectations for donation amounts or tithing at Catholic churches. Catholic churches have been able to avoid going that route for a few reasons: (1) Catholic churches (many with parish schools) are sort of lumped together under the Archdiocese which can pool some of the money and spread the wealth so to speak -- and I don't think Jewish temples have the same organizational structure. (2) I think more Catholics attend church regularly --- and thus more money is taken in during collections --- than their reformed Jewish counterparts. IMHO, as a Catholic married to a Jewish man who was raised going to a conservative temple but no longer attends temple, I think that many young Jewish adults (aside from the orthodox) tend to identify culturally as being Jewish as opposed to maintaining the spiritual discipline to attend services regularly --- and if folks aren't coming to temple regularly and only want to come on the high holy days, then you have to find a way to financially sustain the temple. I would be curious to hear how much orthodox temples charge -- I get a sense that orthodox families are (1) larger, (2) attend services frequently (not just weekly), (3) and perhaps their larger congregations allow them to charge less. (FWIW, we live within walking distance of a temple and the temple seems to be the cultural hub for tons of families in the neighborhood --- and with their frequent development and programming, they can't be hurting for money).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I don't see why it is necessarily more virtuous to support local causes. I think you can also argue that we have a particular obligation to support members of the Jewish community who need help.

Love your neighbour.
The age old question: Who is my neighbour?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Granted I didn't read all the posts... but the first few were fascinating...I had no idea Judaism was so expensive!

It is annoying to comment after not reading all the posts.

OP quote of 8000k is misleading. It's not even close to what the vast majority pay. And other religions get their money in different ways.

[Anonymous]

23:00 PP here. To the person who asked, my temple is Temple Micah in Washington DC. (smallish, reform, interfaith-friendly, socially active). I was raised Catholic, so I have some idea of both models.

The earlier posters have the reasons why the Jewish model for raising money is different: less regular service attendance and the inability to exchange money at services. Thus the concept of dues and membership arose. The use of a percentage of income rather than a set amount as the target is meant to be fairer and less burdensome to people. As others have pointed out, the $8000 number would be what was asked of a family that made at least $450,000, which is a tiny percentage of families. A new member would not be expected to pay that amount right away and, for those who become committed to the community as one would hope, it is not that much for a family that is in that bracket. (When I grew up, lots of families tithed to their churches which is 10 PERCENT of your income). Lots of people give more than 2 percent of their income to their religious community so it's not really fair to paint synagogues as being "more expensive" than other religious institutitions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's no requirement of payment to pray in a synagogue. You can go in anytime and pray, go to services, etc. No one is turned away. The PPs are talking about membership -- i.e., the right to hold your wedding, bar mitzvah, etc. there.

OH, OK!! Now it makes sense And you don't have to pay for hte wedding and bar mitzvah right when the time comes right?

I know catholic churches have a fee for those kind of events - baptism, wedding, etc... and it varies according to how much in demand the church is.

There is no fee in a Catholic Church for those events. Typically, you make a donation to the Church or priest for a wedding or baptism, and the amount is completely up to you.

I disagree. When my husband and I married in a local Catholic church we were told what the donation amount would be. It was $300-that was ten years ago. I think there are often standard donation amounts that are expected for weddings. Sorry I know we're OT here.

I also got married in a Catholic church 10 years ago, and there was no specified fee.

[Anonymous]

I love Temple Micah!

I haven't been in forever, and I live really far away from it, but if I were going to join, that's where I'd do it.


...OK, I know nobody asked for a plug, but it's a really great congregation, and I've always felt welcome there (says tattooed reform single mom person).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:23:00 PP here. To the person who asked, my temple is Temple Micah in Washington DC. (smallish, reform, interfaith-friendly, socially active). I was raised Catholic, so I have some idea of both models.

The earlier posters have the reasons why the Jewish model for raising money is different: less regular service attendance and the inability to exchange money at services. Thus the concept of dues and membership arose. The use of a percentage of income rather than a set amount as the target is meant to be fairer and less burdensome to people. As others have pointed out, the $8000 number would be what was asked of a family that made at least $450,000, which is a tiny percentage of families. A new member would not be expected to pay that amount right away and, for those who become committed to the community as one would hope, it is not that much for a family that is in that bracket. (When I grew up, lots of families tithed to their churches which is 10 PERCENT of your income). Lots of people give more than 2 percent of their income to their religious community so it's not really fair to paint synagogues as being "more expensive" than other religious institutitions.

Interesting because I'm the OP and Temple Micah is exactly one of the synagogues that came up in my thought process when I posted my original question. This is their dues structure (and there is nothing in there about not being asked to pay this amount right away):

$40,000 $800
$60,000 $1,200
$80,000 $1,600
$100,000 $2,000
$120,000 $2,400
$140,000 $2,800
$160,000 $3,200
$180,000 $3,600
$200,000 $4,000
$220,000 $4,400
$240,000 $4,800
$260,000 $5,200
$280,000 $5,600
$300,000 $6,000
$320,000 $6,400
$340,000 $6,800
$360,000 $7,200
$380,000 $7,600
$400,000 $8,000

Granted, I am on the high end -- hence, my original question about having to pay $8000 on this "fair share" dues structure, but I still think it's a legitimate question. I think the synagogue model IS more expensive than any church I've heard of, and I think that's borne out by the conversation on this board. I still think it's crazy that I'd have to pay that much to join Temple Micah, and I'm not comforted by your conclusion that $8000 "is not that much for a family in this bracket." As a "family in this bracket," I can assure you that this amount IS a lot, given the circumstances I described in my original posting (and even if the circumstances were different and I wanted to be a more active member!). Anyway, I don't want to keep rehashing this money thing, but I think some of you are really downplaying the financial commitment expectations of the synagogues in this community.

[Anonymous]

i think we should take the lamb and the veggies from the backyard to the temple.
i miss that time.

[Anonymous]

OP, Temple Micah poster here. I am very sorry if you are put off by the "fair share" dues structure and do not mean at all to suggest that it is not a lot to pay for the purposes of going to a couple of services a year. I understand where you are coming from, believe me and it is particularly tough when dealing with folks like you who are looking to join at a time when the family income is high. I also had no intention of getting specific about my congregation at all, and only named it because one of the other PPs asked specifically about it. If religious school is something that you are interested in, I think that many synagogues including ours will let you send your child for a year without being a member if there is space. That might be a way for you to try someplace out and see if it is a good fit for your family. I would suggest that you find a place you think you want to be and then talk with them about what the options are for coming up with an amount that you are comfortable with. Believe me, no one is looking to try to squeeze you for every dime of your fair share for your first year of membership at that level. I sincerely hope that you find an option that works for you, as I think that having a spiritual community is a great thing if it is something you would like for your family.

Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's no requirement of payment to pray in a synagogue. You can go in anytime and pray, go to services, etc. No one is turned away. The PPs are talking about membership -- i.e., the right to hold your wedding, bar mitzvah, etc. there.

OH, OK!! Now it makes sense And you don't have to pay for hte wedding and bar mitzvah right when the time comes right?

I know catholic churches have a fee for those kind of events - baptism, wedding, etc... and it varies according to how much in demand the church is.

I think there may be a fee, but it's much less for members. My husband and I weren't members of a synagogue when we got married, and we had a heck of a time finding a place and a rabbi to get married. The fees are high. The problem is basically, one of supply and demand. There are a lot more "unaffiliated" Jews then there are temples and synagogues. So for special events -- weddings, funerals, holidays like Rosh Hoshanah and Yom Kippur, Jews want to go to synagogue. But we don't necessarily want to be year-round supporting synagogue members. The synagogues aren't going to turn away people who want to come inside and pray, but if you want to use their facilities for special events, their members come first.

I have been a member of both Catholic and Epsicopal churches in my life. I was married at a Presbyterian church that no one in the wedding party had an affiliation with other than my parents were friendly with the Pastor. They paid a small fee to the "church guild" (like $600). At our Episcopal church in NWDC we see complete strangers at Christmas and Easter services every year and no one ever asks them to pay anything or would even think of it. This is exceptionally common in Christian churchs, lots and lots of Christmas and Easter only folks.

Anyone who wishes to be married or have a child baptized or hold a funeral/memorial service in our church may do so and is just asked to contribute a token amount (say $250-$500 or so) to the Rector's discretionary fund. Actually, most Christian churches consider you a member if you attend fairly regularly, participate in the community (i.e. volunteer, come to dinners, have children in Sunday School or CCD, help with fund raisers) and pledge (however much you choose) during the annual fund drive. It is never a set fee. It is the rare family indeed who would give $8,000 or more even in the most pricey zip codes. My parents never gave more to the Catholic church than a few bucks in the collection plate and a small check at Christmas, of course my dad only went at Christmas and Easter, although mom was a regular and we kids all went to CCD. Also, in many churches, your volunteer hours are considered akin to giving money so if you can not afford to give at all you are still a member. A Rector or Priest would tell you that these are blessed sacraments and God did not intend for them to cost money but to be available to all people regardless of wordly possessions/wealth. This is a completely different animal then the membership fee set by synagoges and temples. Those fees do indeed seem much more like country club dues as the OP says. Perhaps Jewish congregations should look at the methods by which many churches finance their operations and ministries - mostly through volunteer work and fund raising. The Georgetown House Tour held by St John's Epioscopal Church is an excellent example. Frankly, the only time I know of that it matters how much you give to a church is a Catholic church if you want your child to attend the local parish school that is particularly popular and then CCD is off the table anyway. Of course, I have only "heard" that through gossip and rumors.

I have to admit, it would annoy the heck out of me if my relationship with God were presumed upon by a church demanding a specific, large amount of money from me to come to services or "use them" for major life events. It reminds me of Jesus and the sacrifical animal vendors and moneylenders in the Temple. Maybe this is a strictly cultural-religious thing. I have to admit, I have heard lots of Jewish friends and friends' parents complain about this over the years. You'd think some brilliant rabbi, and Lord knows there are many, would find a new paradigm for reformed congregatiosn at least. It seems hard enough to get any of us in this country, regardless of religion, to go to worship regularly.