Algebra 1 in 9th grade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm guess all of these my kid did great in college admissions with 9th grade Algebra cheerleaders did not have kids on a STEM path? Because I am very doubtful that an Ivy (or any top 30 college) wants a 9th grade Algebra student, who never got above Pre-Calc in Engineering, math, physics, computer science, etc.

Another thing I don't get. If my kid gets a 5 on the AP BC Calculus exam his junior year and hits the high 700s on the math SAT, then takes college level multivariable/ matrix algebra his senior year (check, check, check) at a strong FCPS high school, what makes his As in math worth less than a B- in math from a top private? Seems like he mastered the material your 9th grade Algebra student did-- plus three additional years worth of material.

How do the SATs compare between the top privates and the top publics (including TJ) in this area?

And to the fcps teacher at the "top" high school whose kids are in a "top" private, are you saying you and your fellow math teachers are substandard?

DC's public magnet SAT median score is around 2240 w/ 40% NMSF rate. We are in Moco. I have hard time imagining private kids running circles around them.

I do believe, however, private kids do much better with top tier college admission than most public schools - even the magnets. Colleges love full paying kids and parents with connections.

Most college prep schools have about 30% financial aid. Many of those kids (and not the legacies) are the ones that are in the top of their class. My friend had 80% financial aid to a private for 10 years and then a free ride to Stanford.

so subsidized by other full pay families. that's great.

[Anonymous]

I mean, I guess it depends on what colleges you are shooting for. You can forget about the tippy top with 9th grade algebra. But it sounds like that wasn't his/her path anyway (As and Bs). You're not going to get there with any Bs. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Kids in public are taught to the test by memorization. Colleges know that.

That said, my daughter was in Algebra 2 in 9th at private.

I (public parent) am not offended but I am really curious what this means. As an engineer, I have taken my share of math courses and use math everyday but I still don't understand what this means. Can you clarify, please?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have had 3 kids in big 3 schools. Two, boys, took algebra 1 in 9 th grade. They did well and all three have gone to Ivys and top LAC. All scored high on math SAT. I would not worry about it.

+1. Showing acceleration IS important for students applying to college from public schools and not so much from private because colleges know students from Big 3 type schools are exceptionally well prepared and can write circles around the vast majority of public school kids.

It's the mom and dad's money and connection that colleges love - not your kids accomplishments. Algebra 1 in 9th grade is like bottom 20% kids even in public schools. Your kids are not circling around anyone.

Kids in public are taught to the test by memorization. Colleges know that.

That said, my daughter was in Algebra 2 in 9th at private.

lol no they don't. Welcome to 2016 where most ivy leagues students are former public school students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have never used anything beyond basic algebra and geometry in my real life. Provided my kids are not interested in a STEM field, I have no desire to press them through multivariable calculus. They can, and should, spend their effort on subjects that interest them and will prove useful in the path they are pursuing.

"Provided my kids aren't interested in STEM." But that's a huge "provided". Many, many (most ??) of the high caliber 21st century jobs are in STEM of some sort: the Tech sector, medicine, software engineering, other engineering. Even patent law requires undergrad in a STEM field. Your kid has to make an Algebra placement decision in 7th grade. I certainly wouldn't want to decide for my 12 year old that they can't get into a top engineering, pre-med, CS, etc program. Why would you limit their options to undergrad liberal arts at such a young age? When I was 12, I was certain I was going to be an Olympic gymnast (hint: I never made it onto a Wheaties box). Why decide your kid won't be in a math heavy field-- before they ever take a "real" abstract math class?

My 12 year old may not end up in a STEM field-- but she certainly could (she thinks she is going to play her instrument with the NSO, BTW). She'll take Algebra in 7th grade, and if she hits Calculus in 11th and decides STEM is not for her, she'll take AB, instead of BC, and have a cakewalk through AP Stats her senior year. If she is interested in engineering, she'll be able to take BC her junior year, and multivariable through GMU as a senior-- and show colleges she has the math chops to succeed.

I hear what you're saying, but here's my problem: it's not my decision nor my DC's. DC really isn't ready. Started a new school this year and it wasn't clear to me until last week that DC wouldn't be placed in algebra. I believe the school when they say DC just isn't ready, especially because I saw how much time it took to get through the work every night. I would have to turn the clock back three or four years to fix this. I am trying to determine now whether to go to the school and convince them that with tutors and a lot of time, that DC could get through algebra, but then I fear a hamster-wheel like this for the next five years, to the detriment of every other subject. I want to just accept that math just isn't DC's thing, but it's a hard pill to swallow to think that at the age of 12, doors are already being closed for this incredibly bright kid.

[Anonymous]

Going back to OP's question, yes, the top independents offer Algebra I in ninth grade. Most kids are beyond Algebra I by then, but some aren't. Some schools too will offer geometry during the summer for anyone who wants to get onto a plan for calculus during senior year (while some classmates will be well beyond calculus by then). But if your child is in algebra I in ninth grade, it is a fair assumption that he or she is not a STEM kid---but that is completely ok. For goodness sake, we live in a city filled with super successful people and with the exception of the tech companies out by Dulles and the IT people down the hall, not much STEM around. Your DC will be fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a huge difference in math curriculum for public and private schools so in many respects this set of posts is comparing apples to oranges. I teach accelerated math (honors, TAG and super-TAG) in a Northern Virginia middle school. I also have taught high school math in a private school frequently mentioned in these forums.

In general, the Algebra I taught in private high schools for most 9th grade students encompasses the Alg I plus Alg II that is taught in public schools. A good rule of thumb is that the amount of material covered in a public school in a year is about 1/3 to 1/2 of what is covered in a good or acceptable private school.

Message to OP: many children entering private high schools, whether from private or public, are routed into Alg I after the results of their placement tests. If your child takes Alg I in 8th grade in public school, s/he still probably will end up taking it again in 9th grade at the private school. And chances are your son/daughter will see that many of the students in Alg I at the private also are re-taking the course, even if they took Alg I in 8th grade at a private. It won't hurt. It never hurts to have strong Algebra skills.

Also, don't panic at the breathless cries and hysterics of others that your child will be behind taking Alg I in 9th grade in a private school. Your child won't be behind and and those people don't know enough about the schools and curriculum to be able say much that could be helpful. As I said in my first paragraph, it is apples and oranges.

My DS and I have had 3 children progress through private elementary and secondary schools frequently mentioned in these forums. Over the years, for 9th grade, one was placed in Honors Algebra I, one in Honors Alg I/Geo, and one in Honors Geometry, based on the results of the schools' own placement tests. It all worked out. 2 of our children are now in Ivy schools and the third will be in the fall. For admissions, no one even blinked at the kid who was in Alg I in 9th grade.

I teach high school math at what is regarded as one of the best non-TJ public high schools in Northern Virginia, have children in private, and wholeheartedly agree. Apples and oranges. And don't worry for a second about spending the time to firm up those Algebra skills in 8th or 9th grade.

Can you explain? I have seen this "apples and oranges" comment a lot but I don't really get it. How is private school math and public school math different? If a public kid and a private kid both get 800 on SAT, is private kid's score somehow better??

Of course the public school student earning an 800 score on the math SAT is just as strong as the private 800 student. My comment applies to the overall program. The typical course in the public school (at least the pyramid I'm familiar with) is focused on following a particular strategy. For instance, when learning about subtraction regrouping, they learn exactly how to do it and can execute it very well. The approach in my children's private is much deeper. They can all perform the subtraction problem using several different strategies, can choose which strategy makes the most sense for the problem, and can explain the math behind the strategy. The exceptional math student--public or private--typically pulls out those nuances on her own. In high school, we explore the "why" a bit more in honors/AP classes, but not so much in the regular classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm guess all of these my kid did great in college admissions with 9th grade Algebra cheerleaders did not have kids on a STEM path? Because I am very doubtful that an Ivy (or any top 30 college) wants a 9th grade Algebra student, who never got above Pre-Calc in Engineering, math, physics, computer science, etc.

Another thing I don't get. If my kid gets a 5 on the AP BC Calculus exam his junior year and hits the high 700s on the math SAT, then takes college level multivariable/ matrix algebra his senior year (check, check, check) at a strong FCPS high school, what makes his As in math worth less than a B- in math from a top private? Seems like he mastered the material your 9th grade Algebra student did-- plus three additional years worth of material.

How do the SATs compare between the top privates and the top publics (including TJ) in this area?

And to the fcps teacher at the "top" high school whose kids are in a "top" private, are you saying you and your fellow math teachers are substandard?

Yes, many are absolutely substandard. We are also limited by a number of issues that private school teachers are not (class size, state standards, testing, administration, fellow teachers, countless IEPs, etc).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Kids in public are taught to the test by memorization. Colleges know that.

That said, my daughter was in Algebra 2 in 9th at private.

I (public parent) am not offended but I am really curious what this means. As an engineer, I have taken my share of math courses and use math everyday but I still don't understand what this means. Can you clarify, please?

An example:

The x coordinate of the vertex of a parabola is -b/2a. A student can memorize and use that formula all day long without understanding why it is true or being able to derive it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am wondering how many top 3 (5/6 will do, too) private school students put off Algebra 1 until 9th grade. MY DC will not be taking it in 8th next year, and though I know this is for the best, I am concerned about how this will effect DC going forward. School has assured me that although the cohort in 8th not taking algebra is small, the one taking Algebra 1 in 9th expands. Also, how detrimental to DC's college prospects will it be to not have a strong math course behind them? DC does well in all other areas (A-s and B+s) and I think will do better in math by not being pushed too far ahead (DC is very young for grade, along with minor processing and working memory issues). Really I am just looking for some positive experiences and outcomes for those who are similar. I know this is not the greatest of circumstances, and it is stressing me out a bit, so some positive feedback would be much appreciated!

OP -- You already know what is best for your child -- trust that instinct. Especially in private school, our experience has been that the difficulty/intensity of advanced math classes increases quite dramatically in 9th-12th. If your child is already struggling and will require tutors and lots of extra effort and time to take Algebra in 8th, this may likely be to the detriment of his or her other classes (and also to his or her general well-being (yes, some of us -- even in the Big 3s -- place high value on that)). Do not listen to folks who say you are shutting off any of your child's future STEM-related opportunities by making the wise, and advised, decision to allow your child to firm up foundational math in middle school. As others have mentioned, if math ends up becoming a favorite subject in high school and potential college major (unlikely given current situation), you may find summer options to allow him/her to catch up. If you're mainly worried about college admissions chances, it is more important that he/she keeps up grades and takes the most rigorous classes he/she is capable of taking and doing well in -- it will not help to be pushed into Algebra sooner than ready and have other grades go down. And plenty of folks don't decide until they're already in college that they want to pursue a STEM field -- it is not too late to do so then, and it will not matter at that point whether Algebra was taken in 8th or 9th! Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean, I guess it depends on what colleges you are shooting for. You can forget about the tippy top with 9th grade algebra. But it sounds like that wasn't his/her path anyway (As and Bs). You're not going to get there with any Bs. Sorry.

Actually, even some of those entering the ivies from top privates will have the occasional B. It's true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am wondering how many top 3 (5/6 will do, too) private school students put off Algebra 1 until 9th grade. MY DC will not be taking it in 8th next year, and though I know this is for the best, I am concerned about how this will effect DC going forward. School has assured me that although the cohort in 8th not taking algebra is small, the one taking Algebra 1 in 9th expands. Also, how detrimental to DC's college prospects will it be to not have a strong math course behind them? DC does well in all other areas (A-s and B+s) and I think will do better in math by not being pushed too far ahead (DC is very young for grade, along with minor processing and working memory issues). Really I am just looking for some positive experiences and outcomes for those who are similar. I know this is not the greatest of circumstances, and it is stressing me out a bit, so some positive feedback would be much appreciated!

OP -- You already know what is best for your child -- trust that instinct. Especially in private school, our experience has been that the difficulty/intensity of advanced math classes increases quite dramatically in 9th-12th. If your child is already struggling and will require tutors and lots of extra effort and time to take Algebra in 8th, this may likely be to the detriment of his or her other classes (and also to his or her general well-being (yes, some of us -- even in the Big 3s -- place high value on that)). Do not listen to folks who say you are shutting off any of your child's future STEM-related opportunities by making the wise, and advised, decision to allow your child to firm up foundational math in middle school. As others have mentioned, if math ends up becoming a favorite subject in high school and potential college major (unlikely given current situation), you may find summer options to allow him/her to catch up. If you're mainly worried about college admissions chances, it is more important that he/she keeps up grades and takes the most rigorous classes he/she is capable of taking and doing well in -- it will not help to be pushed into Algebra sooner than ready and have other grades go down. And plenty of folks don't decide until they're already in college that they want to pursue a STEM field -- it is not too late to do so then, and it will not matter at that point whether Algebra was taken in 8th or 9th! Good luck.

OP here: I am surprised by how many helpful and informative posts have surfaced in response to my question (though not surprised by the variety of opinions). This one, however, along with a few others like it, are just what I needed to feel okay about the direction DC is taking. DC has proven himself to be very bright and so interested in a variety of subjects and I look forward to him finding great success. Thanks so much for the well-informed, and rational post!

[Anonymous]

You're welcome

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a huge difference in math curriculum for public and private schools so in many respects this set of posts is comparing apples to oranges. I teach accelerated math (honors, TAG and super-TAG) in a Northern Virginia middle school. I also have taught high school math in a private school frequently mentioned in these forums.

In general, the Algebra I taught in private high schools for most 9th grade students encompasses the Alg I plus Alg II that is taught in public schools. A good rule of thumb is that the amount of material covered in a public school in a year is about 1/3 to 1/2 of what is covered in a good or acceptable private school.

Message to OP: many children entering private high schools, whether from private or public, are routed into Alg I after the results of their placement tests. If your child takes Alg I in 8th grade in public school, s/he still probably will end up taking it again in 9th grade at the private school. And chances are your son/daughter will see that many of the students in Alg I at the private also are re-taking the course, even if they took Alg I in 8th grade at a private. It won't hurt. It never hurts to have strong Algebra skills.

Also, don't panic at the breathless cries and hysterics of others that your child will be behind taking Alg I in 9th grade in a private school. Your child won't be behind and and those people don't know enough about the schools and curriculum to be able say much that could be helpful. As I said in my first paragraph, it is apples and oranges.

My DS and I have had 3 children progress through private elementary and secondary schools frequently mentioned in these forums. Over the years, for 9th grade, one was placed in Honors Algebra I, one in Honors Alg I/Geo, and one in Honors Geometry, based on the results of the schools' own placement tests. It all worked out. 2 of our children are now in Ivy schools and the third will be in the fall. For admissions, no one even blinked at the kid who was in Alg I in 9th grade.

I teach high school math at what is regarded as one of the best non-TJ public high schools in Northern Virginia, have children in private, and wholeheartedly agree. Apples and oranges. And don't worry for a second about spending the time to firm up those Algebra skills in 8th or 9th grade.

Can you explain? I have seen this "apples and oranges" comment a lot but I don't really get it. How is private school math and public school math different? If a public kid and a private kid both get 800 on SAT, is private kid's score somehow better??

Of course the public school student earning an 800 score on the math SAT is just as strong as the private 800 student. My comment applies to the overall program. The typical course in the public school (at least the pyramid I'm familiar with) is focused on following a particular strategy. For instance, when learning about subtraction regrouping, they learn exactly how to do it and can execute it very well. The approach in my children's private is much deeper. They can all perform the subtraction problem using several different strategies, can choose which strategy makes the most sense for the problem, and can explain the math behind the strategy. The exceptional math student--public or private--typically pulls out those nuances on her own. In high school, we explore the "why" a bit more in honors/AP classes, but not so much in the regular classes.

My kids a e in private but attended public elementary. You need to familiarize yourself with the common core math standards which Markets land and I suspect Virginia have been following before the standards even existed. Kids are required to explain, in words, how they are solving a math problem starting in second grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a huge difference in math curriculum for public and private schools so in many respects this set of posts is comparing apples to oranges. I teach accelerated math (honors, TAG and super-TAG) in a Northern Virginia middle school. I also have taught high school math in a private school frequently mentioned in these forums.

In general, the Algebra I taught in private high schools for most 9th grade students encompasses the Alg I plus Alg II that is taught in public schools. A good rule of thumb is that the amount of material covered in a public school in a year is about 1/3 to 1/2 of what is covered in a good or acceptable private school.

Message to OP: many children entering private high schools, whether from private or public, are routed into Alg I after the results of their placement tests. If your child takes Alg I in 8th grade in public school, s/he still probably will end up taking it again in 9th grade at the private school. And chances are your son/daughter will see that many of the students in Alg I at the private also are re-taking the course, even if they took Alg I in 8th grade at a private. It won't hurt. It never hurts to have strong Algebra skills.

Also, don't panic at the breathless cries and hysterics of others that your child will be behind taking Alg I in 9th grade in a private school. Your child won't be behind and and those people don't know enough about the schools and curriculum to be able say much that could be helpful. As I said in my first paragraph, it is apples and oranges.

My DS and I have had 3 children progress through private elementary and secondary schools frequently mentioned in these forums. Over the years, for 9th grade, one was placed in Honors Algebra I, one in Honors Alg I/Geo, and one in Honors Geometry, based on the results of the schools' own placement tests. It all worked out. 2 of our children are now in Ivy schools and the third will be in the fall. For admissions, no one even blinked at the kid who was in Alg I in 9th grade.

I teach high school math at what is regarded as one of the best non-TJ public high schools in Northern Virginia, have children in private, and wholeheartedly agree. Apples and oranges. And don't worry for a second about spending the time to firm up those Algebra skills in 8th or 9th grade.

Can you explain? I have seen this "apples and oranges" comment a lot but I don't really get it. How is private school math and public school math different? If a public kid and a private kid both get 800 on SAT, is private kid's score somehow better??

Of course the public school student earning an 800 score on the math SAT is just as strong as the private 800 student. My comment applies to the overall program. The typical course in the public school (at least the pyramid I'm familiar with) is focused on following a particular strategy. For instance, when learning about subtraction regrouping, they learn exactly how to do it and can execute it very well. The approach in my children's private is much deeper. They can all perform the subtraction problem using several different strategies, can choose which strategy makes the most sense for the problem, and can explain the math behind the strategy. The exceptional math student--public or private--typically pulls out those nuances on her own. In high school, we explore the "why" a bit more in honors/AP classes, but not so much in the regular classes.

My kids a e in private but attended public elementary. You need to familiarize yourself with the common core math standards which Markets land and I suspect Virginia have been following before the standards even existed. Kids are required to explain, in words, how they are solving a math problem starting in second grade.

In Maryland, not Marketland. Anyway, the way math taught in publics today is the opposite of memorization.