Soccer: WAGS and NCSL to merge this Fall

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's like talking to a brick wall.....

that was directed to this guy
Stop with the development crap you obviously work for a CCL club. If you knew what your talking about you would know they hardly ever move players up or down after their initial assessment at age 9. Only reason clubs do what they do is money. So they can group all the teams in one place on the same day, its about hiring fewer coaches and get more out of field time, has nothing to do with development.

There is more than one of "those guys". Many of us have the same exact beef.

It's very arrogant and condescending to be putting down other leagues, teams, coaches and the kids that play for them. Despicable.

CCL's concept is fine. However, many of the clubs don't use it as how it was designed. No players are moving around, rosters being rotated except for now in the 2 weeks before most tryouts as they catch wind many of their players are fed up and leaving. CCL is not competitive for many teams exactly because there is no pro/rel. it wouldn't be needed if the clubs kept to a reasonable size anyways. It is really for the convenience of the coaches in these massively large clubs. And the no poaching is also about the clubs not their players. Many of us would loved to be poached--keeps clubs on their toes working to keep everyone happy. If you were actually doing right by your players, none of them would be susceptible to poaching. You have a bunch of unhappy players and parents then you better work to change that.

As to the remark about 'dad coach's', two of the best coach's we've had were 'dad coaches'. D1 soccer players, etc. they cared way more about the kids than the ones coaching 4 different teams and just dialing it In with no bonding with the young players. My own dad coach produced 3 D1players and a professional player from his own family--no coaching license. When the heart is in it, not just the $, amazing things happen,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's like talking to a brick wall.....

that was directed to this guy
Stop with the development crap you obviously work for a CCL club. If you knew what your talking about you would know they hardly ever move players up or down after their initial assessment at age 9. Only reason clubs do what they do is money. So they can group all the teams in one place on the same day, its about hiring fewer coaches and get more out of field time, has nothing to do with development.

There is more than one of "those guys". Many of us have the same exact beef.

It's very arrogant and condescending to be putting down other leagues, teams, coaches and the kids that play for them. Despicable.

CCL's concept is fine. However, many of the clubs don't use it as how it was designed. No players are moving around, rosters being rotated except for now in the 2 weeks before most tryouts as they catch wind many of their players are fed up and leaving. CCL is not competitive for many teams exactly because there is no pro/rel. it wouldn't be needed if the clubs kept to a reasonable size anyways. It is really for the convenience of the coaches in these massively large clubs. And the no poaching is also about the clubs not their players. Many of us would loved to be poached--keeps clubs on their toes working to keep everyone happy. If you were actually doing right by your players, none of them would be susceptible to poaching. You have a bunch of unhappy players and parents then you better work to change that.

As to the remark about 'dad coach's', two of the best coach's we've had were 'dad coaches'. D1 soccer players, etc. they cared way more about the kids than the ones coaching 4 different teams and just dialing it In with no bonding with the young players. My own dad coach produced 3 D1players and a professional player from his own family--no coaching license. When the heart is in it, not just the $, amazing things happen,

Sounds like you should have stayed with your good coach then. You clearly have bigger issues than a four hour drive to a game.

Really though, move on. Your problems are club/team problems not league/CCL problems. Stop listening to your ego and do what is right for your kid and family. That is really as nice and sincere as I can be about your issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing -- having all these separate leagues takes away from EVERYONE'S experience, at least if you're on an A team. It means you may be stuck playing St. Mary's in NCSL when you could be playing Arlington.

So "shut up and play NCSL if you think it's better" isn't a solution. A lot of top teams have left NCSL, so the competition has diminished while the travel distances have gone up.

I wonder if NCSL/WAGS will be able to lure some clubs back from VPL and EDP by cutting down on travel.

Everything is watered down these days. Too many teams per club. Top talent spread too wide and diluted in too many different places/leagues.

Travel used to be an elite experience and not meant for every child. It used to mean something to play travel. Now anyone with a checkbook can find a team.

This has meant middle class families are needlessly shelling out 3k per kid for crappy training and sucky competition.

Jon Stossel should do an expose or Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel on what robbery this is and how US soccer is not improving with more of this pay to play crap.

I think most families playing lower-division NCSL and ODSL are making informed decisions. And I think if you're good enough for the DA, go for it.

It's the people in between -- the ones suckered in by "elite" leagues of dubious "elite"ness -- that are sometimes getting fleeced. And that still depends from club to club. I'm not a great CCL fan, but if I lived in Loudoun and had one of the top soccer-playing kids in whatever age group -- sure, play for Loudoun. Great program, and I'd suck it up on the travel.

It shouldn't "mean something to play travel." I've seen kids who get attitudes when they make travel at age 8, and they stop learning immediately. Travel is supposed to be the journey, not the destination. Maybe the destination is pro soccer, maybe it's high school varsity, maybe it's just having a good experience playing relatively serious soccer with kids from the same town.

Also -- 3k is too much. If you're paying 3k, shop around. You can beat that price, especially if you're playing at any level below NCSL D1.

Totally agree with you, PP. Not paying anywhere near $3000 and have no expectation or desire for my son to play Division 1 in college. My kid loves to play, loves to compete, knows how to listen, wants to learn, and had outgrown rec. He is one of the better players on his NCSL team, we live fifteen minutes from practice, and he loves every minute of it all. Why wouldn't there be a league for kids like him? And why wouldn't I sign him up? It's healthy, we can afford it, we are all happy. Most people I know have the same mindset.

There is a league for a kid like your son, you are currently in it. The difference between you and Captain Anti CCL is your expectations and ego have found balance. Captain Anti CCL would rather change an entire league to suit their own ego an ambition rather than play at an appropriate level that makes the most sense for their family.

You don't have to drive to VA Beach to play soccer, but you do have to give up a perceived advantage of playing in a particular league to play closer to home.

I can't speak for all the elite-league skeptics in here (again, more than one), but let's reiterate -- it's not just that CCL/VPL/EDP affects the parents in THOSE leagues. It dilutes NCSL competition and adds travel time. (And poor old ODSL, which does a lot of things right but now has such a small number of clubs that you can pretty much count on traveling to Stafford or Clarke far more often than you want.)

Despite the CCL defensiveness, it's not all about CCL. You could easily argue VPL makes much less sense than CCL. Hard to tell with EDP -- it might depend how much each team ends up traveling.

So the relevance to this conversation is that, with an NCSL/WAGS merger and talk of "regionalization," they may be able to offer an alternative -- if not to CCL, then certainly to VPL or EDP.

And if you've talked to any soccer parents outside the CCL bubble, you know this is important to them! A lot of Fairfax County parents would like for their kids to be able to play competitive games without (A) practicing 30 minutes from home or (B) driving to Virginia Beach for games. Is that really so hard to understand?

This.

[Anonymous]

Don't worry about leagues---especially before the age of 15.

Get your kid the best possible training/coach and let them enjoy the game.

Don't judge under U-9-U-13 training by the league a team plays in.

That is plain ludicrous.

[Anonymous]

Who cares about this? It won't compare to the CCL!!!! Or even CCL2 hahaha

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You clearly do not understand the philosophy behind CCL or NPL's governing body U.S. Club Soccer and how these leagues are very very different than WAGS, NCSL or ODSL.

The whole point of these leagues is to create a club centric model that focuses on development. These leagues give clubs that ability to freely move players up or down in season in order ensure that the player is properly challenged. CCL in particular has very strong anti poaching rules that force clubs to develop more and recruit players less from rival clubs.

The fact that game schedules fro both leagues are Club vs Club allows a coach to manage both A and B teams without conflict, or different teams all together. This offers coaches the opportunity to see more of their programs players on game day.

WAGS, NCSL and ODSL on the other hand are 'team centric" leagues that are purely results oriented for the team with promotion and relegation. This model ignores the fact that a club has A and B teams and makes player movement in season prohibitive. These leagues only care about the singular "team" and not the group of kids in the larger cohort.

If you took ten minutes of your precious time and understood the basic philosophical differences between the leagues the "why's of it all" might make more sense to you. Clearly, you are an uneducated consumer in this regards. Did you not look to see what teams were in your league before you signed onto the team? If not, and you are unhappy you have only yourself to blame. If you did know, and you still signed on and are unhappy, you still have only yourself to blame. But CCL and NPL are not going to change for you, accept and drive to VA Beach, or leave the team and drive to Winchester. But whatever you do decide, please just shut up.

I've spent far more than 10 minutes. I've done an extensive amount of research on these issues, talking to people at all levels -- parents, coaches, administrators, etc.

Your thoughts on NCSL are outdated. Players DO move between A and B teams. At younger ages, they do some block scheduling -- you'll have, say, 3 Alexandria teams facing 3 Vienna teams back-to-back-to-back.

Then at older ages, they move to the pro/rel system. The advantage to that is more evenly matched competition. (This fall will be an exception -- with all the changes stemming from the birth-year age group, some teams are going to get a lot stronger and others will get a lot weaker, and it will take a season or two to sort it all out.)

In CCL or VPL, if you're getting blown out in your age group (or blowing everyone else out -- which is why Baltimore Celtic's leaders left the DA), you don't have many options. A team that's driving to Richmond to lose 6-0 at U12 will be driving to Richmond to lose 8-0 at U16 because players will just keep leaving.

I'll grant that CCL, to which you clearly have some sort of Vogon-style allegiance, does it better than VPL. I get the principles. But I don't get making parents drive all over creation just so technical directors don't have to.

You clearly think parents such as the several people on this thread who disagree with you are all idiots who should be tuned out. I get that -- a lot of parents ARE idiots. But a lot of us aren't. A lot of us have soccer experience beyond driving Johnny and Madison from Frederick to Fredericksburg. And if you don't listen to us, I promise you -- you're going to regret it.

NCSL and WAGS didn't listen. They've been paying for it for years. If CCL doesn't listen, they'll pay for it, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You clearly do not understand the philosophy behind CCL or NPL's governing body U.S. Club Soccer and how these leagues are very very different than WAGS, NCSL or ODSL.

The whole point of these leagues is to create a club centric model that focuses on development. These leagues give clubs that ability to freely move players up or down in season in order ensure that the player is properly challenged. CCL in particular has very strong anti poaching rules that force clubs to develop more and recruit players less from rival clubs.

The fact that game schedules fro both leagues are Club vs Club allows a coach to manage both A and B teams without conflict, or different teams all together. This offers coaches the opportunity to see more of their programs players on game day.

WAGS, NCSL and ODSL on the other hand are 'team centric" leagues that are purely results oriented for the team with promotion and relegation. This model ignores the fact that a club has A and B teams and makes player movement in season prohibitive. These leagues only care about the singular "team" and not the group of kids in the larger cohort.

If you took ten minutes of your precious time and understood the basic philosophical differences between the leagues the "why's of it all" might make more sense to you. Clearly, you are an uneducated consumer in this regards. Did you not look to see what teams were in your league before you signed onto the team? If not, and you are unhappy you have only yourself to blame. If you did know, and you still signed on and are unhappy, you still have only yourself to blame. But CCL and NPL are not going to change for you, accept and drive to VA Beach, or leave the team and drive to Winchester. But whatever you do decide, please just shut up.

I've spent far more than 10 minutes. I've done an extensive amount of research on these issues, talking to people at all levels -- parents, coaches, administrators, etc.

Your thoughts on NCSL are outdated. Players DO move between A and B teams. At younger ages, they do some block scheduling -- you'll have, say, 3 Alexandria teams facing 3 Vienna teams back-to-back-to-back.

Then at older ages, they move to the pro/rel system. The advantage to that is more evenly matched competition. (This fall will be an exception -- with all the changes stemming from the birth-year age group, some teams are going to get a lot stronger and others will get a lot weaker, and it will take a season or two to sort it all out.)

In CCL or VPL, if you're getting blown out in your age group (or blowing everyone else out -- which is why Baltimore Celtic's leaders left the DA), you don't have many options. A team that's driving to Richmond to lose 6-0 at U12 will be driving to Richmond to lose 8-0 at U16 because players will just keep leaving.

I'll grant that CCL, to which you clearly have some sort of Vogon-style allegiance, does it better than VPL. I get the principles. But I don't get making parents drive all over creation just so technical directors don't have to.

You clearly think parents such as the several people on this thread who disagree with you are all idiots who should be tuned out. I get that -- a lot of parents ARE idiots. But a lot of us aren't. A lot of us have soccer experience beyond driving Johnny and Madison from Frederick to Fredericksburg. And if you don't listen to us, I promise you -- you're going to regret it.

NCSL and WAGS didn't listen. They've been paying for it for years. If CCL doesn't listen, they'll pay for it, too.

You get "all of that" but what you don't get is that you can leave CCL. Yes, it might mean your kid is on the B team if you do. I have no allegiance to CCL, but you are clearly in an abusive relationship the way you carry on about the league. Walk away from it, it is only youth soccer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You clearly do not understand the philosophy behind CCL or NPL's governing body U.S. Club Soccer and how these leagues are very very different than WAGS, NCSL or ODSL.

The whole point of these leagues is to create a club centric model that focuses on development. These leagues give clubs that ability to freely move players up or down in season in order ensure that the player is properly challenged. CCL in particular has very strong anti poaching rules that force clubs to develop more and recruit players less from rival clubs.

The fact that game schedules fro both leagues are Club vs Club allows a coach to manage both A and B teams without conflict, or different teams all together. This offers coaches the opportunity to see more of their programs players on game day.

WAGS, NCSL and ODSL on the other hand are 'team centric" leagues that are purely results oriented for the team with promotion and relegation. This model ignores the fact that a club has A and B teams and makes player movement in season prohibitive. These leagues only care about the singular "team" and not the group of kids in the larger cohort.

If you took ten minutes of your precious time and understood the basic philosophical differences between the leagues the "why's of it all" might make more sense to you. Clearly, you are an uneducated consumer in this regards. Did you not look to see what teams were in your league before you signed onto the team? If not, and you are unhappy you have only yourself to blame. If you did know, and you still signed on and are unhappy, you still have only yourself to blame. But CCL and NPL are not going to change for you, accept and drive to VA Beach, or leave the team and drive to Winchester. But whatever you do decide, please just shut up.

I've spent far more than 10 minutes. I've done an extensive amount of research on these issues, talking to people at all levels -- parents, coaches, administrators, etc.

Your thoughts on NCSL are outdated. Players DO move between A and B teams. At younger ages, they do some block scheduling -- you'll have, say, 3 Alexandria teams facing 3 Vienna teams back-to-back-to-back.

Then at older ages, they move to the pro/rel system. The advantage to that is more evenly matched competition. (This fall will be an exception -- with all the changes stemming from the birth-year age group, some teams are going to get a lot stronger and others will get a lot weaker, and it will take a season or two to sort it all out.)

In CCL or VPL, if you're getting blown out in your age group (or blowing everyone else out -- which is why Baltimore Celtic's leaders left the DA), you don't have many options. A team that's driving to Richmond to lose 6-0 at U12 will be driving to Richmond to lose 8-0 at U16 because players will just keep leaving.

I'll grant that CCL, to which you clearly have some sort of Vogon-style allegiance, does it better than VPL. I get the principles. But I don't get making parents drive all over creation just so technical directors don't have to.

You clearly think parents such as the several people on this thread who disagree with you are all idiots who should be tuned out. I get that -- a lot of parents ARE idiots. But a lot of us aren't. A lot of us have soccer experience beyond driving Johnny and Madison from Frederick to Fredericksburg. And if you don't listen to us, I promise you -- you're going to regret it.

NCSL and WAGS didn't listen. They've been paying for it for years. If CCL doesn't listen, they'll pay for it, too.

Yep. Every team in our club is blowing out the competition. It's pitiful. Our lowest team is the only one in NCSL and its playing more competitive teams than the three in CCL/CCL2.

I am taking this guys advice and walking--but for many reasons besides the league. Many of the leaders at the CCL clubs express the same sentiment as this guys. Many of the parents (and grandparents) on the sideline have far more soccer playing and coaching experience than the people running the show.

When you have people like the "don't like it, leave" people will do just that.

[Anonymous]

Your kid doesn't have to be on the B team to leave CCL . Besides, most B teams of CCL member clubs are also in CCL.

There are plenty of great clubs with A teams in other competitive leagues.

Priceless.

[Anonymous]

Celtic left the DA because they wanted kids to play high school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Celtic left the DA because they wanted kids to play high school

Yes. A good example of having the players' best interests in mind.

Many of the women National team players played HS ball.

There is a great article about how there should be many different paths to the top allowed. It was in soccer America. I will try to find the copy.

And to the other joker, most top players played on lower teams in their youth. It's rare for a player to remain at the top from 8 years old onward.

When puberty hit, most of the young stars fall to the wayside. Given that fact, clubs and leagues shouldn't be treating lower team players like garbage.

Look at Iceland's model at why you should invest in all players young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Celtic left the DA because they wanted kids to play high school

Yes. A good example of having the players' best interests in mind.

Many of the women National team players played HS ball.

There is a great article about how there should be many different paths to the top allowed. It was in soccer America. I will try to find the copy.

And to the other joker, most top players played on lower teams in their youth. It's rare for a player to remain at the top from 8 years old onward.

When puberty hit, most of the young stars fall to the wayside. Given that fact, clubs and leagues shouldn't be treating lower team players like garbage.

Look at Iceland's model at why you should invest in all players young.

And those lower team players never forget how shitty a club treated them when they were young players.

My home club got pissed they weren't credited for my success . They were a total hinderance the first 3 years I played there. Of course, I didn't mention them in interviews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your kid doesn't have to be on the B team to leave CCL . Besides, most B teams of CCL member clubs are also in CCL.

There are plenty of great clubs with A teams in other competitive leagues.

Priceless.

Of course this is true, but the complainer didn't express overt frustration with the club in general, so if they leave CCL but stay in the club, yes it would be a "demotion". However there are some terrific teams in NCSL but changing clubs would be required to play on them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Everything is watered down these days. Too many teams per club. Top talent spread too wide and diluted in too many different places/leagues.

Travel used to be an elite experience and not meant for every child. It used to mean something to play travel. Now anyone with a checkbook can find a team.

This has meant middle class families are needlessly shelling out 3k per kid for crappy training and sucky competition.

Jon Stossel should do an expose or Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel on what robbery this is and how US soccer is not improving with more of this pay to play crap.




Agree. I have seen some of the games of the "c" or "d" teams in our club. It saddens me that people are paying that much money to play. Not the fault of the parents - its easy to get sucked into the "travel" game. And not the fault of the kids. The club, though.... they have somehow brainwashed everyone into thinking that these kids are getting $3K worth of soccer out of this, and they are not. When you have 6 teams per age group, it's just about making money, not soccer development. There have been times where the "tryout" didn't even have enough participants to field the teams. Everyone makes it. (mostly on the girls side, I've never seen it on the boys side). It's sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Everything is watered down these days. Too many teams per club. Top talent spread too wide and diluted in too many different places/leagues.

Travel used to be an elite experience and not meant for every child. It used to mean something to play travel. Now anyone with a checkbook can find a team.

This has meant middle class families are needlessly shelling out 3k per kid for crappy training and sucky competition.

Jon Stossel should do an expose or Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel on what robbery this is and how US soccer is not improving with more of this pay to play crap.

Agree. I have seen some of the games of the "c" or "d" teams in our club. It saddens me that people are paying that much money to play. Not the fault of the parents - its easy to get sucked into the "travel" game. And not the fault of the kids. The club, though.... they have somehow brainwashed everyone into thinking that these kids are getting $3K worth of soccer out of this, and they are not. When you have 6 teams per age group, it's just about making money, not soccer development. There have been times where the "tryout" didn't even have enough participants to field the teams. Everyone makes it. (mostly on the girls side, I've never seen it on the boys side). It's sad.

This depends greatly on the age that you are talking about. Soccer, and the access to training should be as inclusive as possible from U9-U13 at least. It is the "competitiveness" that parents bring into the equation that ruins it. Could prices be cheaper? Sure, but to brand a kid at 9 as not good enough is what is sad.