Call a transgender person "he" instead of "she" or "zhe" in NYC? $125,000 fine

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This transgender stuff confuses the hell out of me. I work in an ER and I really need to know whether patients are anatomically males or females for some complaints (like lower abdominal pain). The last transgender patient I saw said "I don't want to discuss that" when I asked whether she had genital reconstructive surgery yet. Um ok. Well, how am I supposed to know if I have to do a pelvic exam or not. Or a preg test. Or a transvaginal ultrasound.

You aren't allowed to ask those questions, might hurt their feelings....

But if they die or suffer severe consequences because you didn't know and couldn't act in a medically appropriate manner get ready to face a big lawsuit--looks like you are getting sued any any event.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm as liberal as they come and I think this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Well that's because the OP misstated the law. Penalty up to $125,000 is to cover any and all acts of discrimination. So you are not going to get a $125,000 fine for one time referring to a person this way. If you make a person's life a living hell, then maybe you will get a decent fine.

If someone using the pronoun of your biological sex instead o zhir or she causes your life to be a "living hell" then you are in need of some extreme psychotherapy. Someone could call me any pronoun they want and I assure you my life would not be a living hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:English has a perfectly good gender neutral pronoun: "it". No need to make up silly new words.

"It" refers to animals and inanimate objects, neither of which are likely to work with you.

It actually may be quite apt here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It is when they've expressed a preference to called something else, yes. It's belligerence and nasty. Yes. It makes you a bad person to not respect someone's wishes. Who the hell are you to argue with people like that? Your mother raised you wrong.

How is that nasty? If they are a man, it is what it is. I fail to see how that is mean, nasty, "belligerence", etc if I call a duck a duck. Just because they do not like it? And there should be laws and penalties to protect these people from my first amendment right to say whatever the hell I want?

You don't understand our system of governance very well. The First Amendment does not vest you with the right to discriminate against someone in a protected class. If you want to act like an asshole, the fine, have at it. Just don't do it in connection with hiring and employment or renting an apartment to a transgendered person who has made their preferences known to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:English has a perfectly good gender neutral pronoun: "it". No need to make up silly new words.

"It" refers to animals and inanimate objects, neither of which are likely to work with you.

It actually may be quite apt here.

No, it's not. Doesn't actually matter what your politics are; you're referring to a human being. To do less is incredibly disrespectful. And willfully so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm as liberal as they come and I think this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Well that's because the OP misstated the law. Penalty up to $125,000 is to cover any and all acts of discrimination. So you are not going to get a $125,000 fine for one time referring to a person this way. If you make a person's life a living hell, then maybe you will get a decent fine.

If someone using the pronoun of your biological sex instead o zhir or she causes your life to be a "living hell" then you are in need of some extreme psychotherapy. Someone could call me any pronoun they want and I assure you my life would not be a living hell.

So, you--a female in this scenario--work in your office for 5 years. Every day for five years, you encounter a certain coworker several times. During each encounter, this coworker goes out of his way to call you "he," "sir," or "him." You've asked him repeatedly not to, and he continues to do so. Pointedly. And nastily.

This wouldn't hurt you at all? Wouldn't damage you at all? Because this is what we're talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm as liberal as they come and I think this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Well that's because the OP misstated the law. Penalty up to $125,000 is to cover any and all acts of discrimination. So you are not going to get a $125,000 fine for one time referring to a person this way. If you make a person's life a living hell, then maybe you will get a decent fine.

If someone using the pronoun of your biological sex instead o zhir or she causes your life to be a "living hell" then you are in need of some extreme psychotherapy. Someone could call me any pronoun they want and I assure you my life would not be a living hell.

So, you--a female in this scenario--work in your office for 5 years. Every day for five years, you encounter a certain coworker several times. During each encounter, this coworker goes out of his way to call you "he," "sir," or "him." You've asked him repeatedly not to, and he continues to do so. Pointedly. And nastily.

This wouldn't hurt you at all? Wouldn't damage you at all? Because this is what we're talking about.

Big difference. The co-worker is correct. In the scenario you describe, "I" am wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm as liberal as they come and I think this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Well that's because the OP misstated the law. Penalty up to $125,000 is to cover any and all acts of discrimination. So you are not going to get a $125,000 fine for one time referring to a person this way. If you make a person's life a living hell, then maybe you will get a decent fine.

If someone using the pronoun of your biological sex instead o zhir or she causes your life to be a "living hell" then you are in need of some extreme psychotherapy. Someone could call me any pronoun they want and I assure you my life would not be a living hell.

So, you--a female in this scenario--work in your office for 5 years. Every day for five years, you encounter a certain coworker several times. During each encounter, this coworker goes out of his way to call you "he," "sir," or "him." You've asked him repeatedly not to, and he continues to do so. Pointedly. And nastily.

This wouldn't hurt you at all? Wouldn't damage you at all? Because this is what we're talking about.

Big difference. The co-worker is correct. In the scenario you describe, "I" am wrong.

In my scenario above, you're a biological female, but that doesn't matter. It's about respect, that's all. I feel sorry for you that you don't see it that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm as liberal as they come and I think this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Well that's because the OP misstated the law. Penalty up to $125,000 is to cover any and all acts of discrimination. So you are not going to get a $125,000 fine for one time referring to a person this way. If you make a person's life a living hell, then maybe you will get a decent fine.

If someone using the pronoun of your biological sex instead o zhir or she causes your life to be a "living hell" then you are in need of some extreme psychotherapy. Someone could call me any pronoun they want and I assure you my life would not be a living hell.

So, you--a female in this scenario--work in your office for 5 years. Every day for five years, you encounter a certain coworker several times. During each encounter, this coworker goes out of his way to call you "he," "sir," or "him." You've asked him repeatedly not to, and he continues to do so. Pointedly. And nastily.

This wouldn't hurt you at all? Wouldn't damage you at all? Because this is what we're talking about.

In your example, you are referring to a real female, not to someone living out a personal fantasy who wants everyone to cater to their fetishized version of reality.

If I imagine myself to be the Queen or England, should it be legally actionable in NYC if my co-workers don't bow and curtsy and call me "Your Majesty"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm as liberal as they come and I think this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Well that's because the OP misstated the law. Penalty up to $125,000 is to cover any and all acts of discrimination. So you are not going to get a $125,000 fine for one time referring to a person this way. If you make a person's life a living hell, then maybe you will get a decent fine.

If someone using the pronoun of your biological sex instead o zhir or she causes your life to be a "living hell" then you are in need of some extreme psychotherapy. Someone could call me any pronoun they want and I assure you my life would not be a living hell.

So, you--a female in this scenario--work in your office for 5 years. Every day for five years, you encounter a certain coworker several times. During each encounter, this coworker goes out of his way to call you "he," "sir," or "him." You've asked him repeatedly not to, and he continues to do so. Pointedly. And nastily.

This wouldn't hurt you at all? Wouldn't damage you at all? Because this is what we're talking about.

Big difference. The co-worker is correct. In the scenario you describe, "I" am wrong.

In my scenario above, you're a biological female, but that doesn't matter. It's about respect, that's all. I feel sorry for you that you don't see it that way.

You are not "respecting" someone when you go along with their delusions, just for the sake of being nice. The person ("I" in your scenario) needs serious help, not mute enablers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you care what other people call themselves if it doesn't affect you?

It DOES affect others.... that is precisely the point.
This law REQUIRES that OTHERS call people what they choose to be called, or suffer the consequences, which in this case, is an outrageously hefty fine.
I could care less if someone wants to be called a dick, but if I refuse to call them that, I should not be prosecuted for not doing so.

We have freedom of speech and the first amendment in this country. The NYC law sounds unconstitutional. Also, does the trans person get to dictate how people describe them when they aren't even present? For example, if the speaker is talking to his wife at home and is discussing the trans person and says "he" instead of "zhe," should be be prosecuted? It's nuts.

My thoughts exactly. I don't see how this stands a chance of being upheld.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It is when they've expressed a preference to called something else, yes. It's belligerence and nasty. Yes. It makes you a bad person to not respect someone's wishes. Who the hell are you to argue with people like that? Your mother raised you wrong.

How is that nasty? If they are a man, it is what it is. I fail to see how that is mean, nasty, "belligerence", etc if I call a duck a duck. Just because they do not like it? And there should be laws and penalties to protect these people from my first amendment right to say whatever the hell I want?

You don't understand our system of governance very well. The First Amendment does not vest you with the right to discriminate against someone in a protected class. If you want to act like an asshole, the fine, have at it. Just don't do it in connection with hiring and employment or renting an apartment to a transgendered person who has made their preferences known to you.

Transgendered is not a protected class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm as liberal as they come and I think this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Well that's because the OP misstated the law. Penalty up to $125,000 is to cover any and all acts of discrimination. So you are not going to get a $125,000 fine for one time referring to a person this way. If you make a person's life a living hell, then maybe you will get a decent fine.

If someone using the pronoun of your biological sex instead o zhir or she causes your life to be a "living hell" then you are in need of some extreme psychotherapy. Someone could call me any pronoun they want and I assure you my life would not be a living hell.

So if you had difficulty getting a job, because your previous employer refused to acknowledge your name, and wouldn't confirm employment dates when the new employer checked. And you had difficulty getting am apartment because the name on your paycheck stubs didn't match the name on your ID . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It is when they've expressed a preference to called something else, yes. It's belligerence and nasty. Yes. It makes you a bad person to not respect someone's wishes. Who the hell are you to argue with people like that? Your mother raised you wrong.

How is that nasty? If they are a man, it is what it is. I fail to see how that is mean, nasty, "belligerence", etc if I call a duck a duck. Just because they do not like it? And there should be laws and penalties to protect these people from my first amendment right to say whatever the hell I want?

You don't understand our system of governance very well. The First Amendment does not vest you with the right to discriminate against someone in a protected class. If you want to act like an asshole, the fine, have at it. Just don't do it in connection with hiring and employment or renting an apartment to a transgendered person who has made their preferences known to you.

Transgendered is not a protected class.

This is a law that is seeking to provide protection for trans people and other gender variant people within a specific jurisdiction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm as liberal as they come and I think this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous.

Well that's because the OP misstated the law. Penalty up to $125,000 is to cover any and all acts of discrimination. So you are not going to get a $125,000 fine for one time referring to a person this way. If you make a person's life a living hell, then maybe you will get a decent fine.

If someone using the pronoun of your biological sex instead o zhir or she causes your life to be a "living hell" then you are in need of some extreme psychotherapy. Someone could call me any pronoun they want and I assure you my life would not be a living hell.

So if you had difficulty getting a job, because your previous employer refused to acknowledge your name, and wouldn't confirm employment dates when the new employer checked. And you had difficulty getting am apartment because the name on your paycheck stubs didn't match the name on your ID . . .

according to the law, an employer doesn't have to use the legal name. That seems to be what would cause confusion, not an employer that uses the name on legal documents like a license, social security card, passport, etc.