How many of you go to church with your kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the PP atheists here. I just wanted to comment that my decision to not believe is not a cop out. I was raised evangelical Christian, went to a Christian schools, have read the bible in its entirety, have read some of the other religious books and have taken a few college classes on other religions. I find religion fascinating and take the time to learn about it, I just can't bring myself to believe in any of it.

New poster here. Just curious- - with all of that early exposure and education, do you have any belief that "it" (the bible, story of Jesus, etc) could be a possibility? That its feasible these things "could" have happened? Just curious.

[Anonymous]

I suspect most atheists have thought about this stuff far more - and more deeply - than the believers. They are certainly, on average, more intelligent.

[Anonymous]

Super offensive.

[Anonymous]

To the OP:

You may find as time goes on that your child has a say in the matter. We do belong to a church but do not go regularly. It's one of those things we TRY to do, but you know how weekends are...

Recently, our six year old started kicking up a fuss because we had not been to church in awhile. She had a pretty religious friend at school so I think she wanted to go more to learn about this God person. I am sort of vaguely Christian, probably more agnostic, and have my own pseudo-religious theories about getting close to God through nature (a hodge-pode of Ralp Waldo Emerson and Alice Walker's The Color Purple would probably be the right way to describe it). I grew uo Catholic, which was a lot of ritual that I hated but now find oddly comforting as I get older. My husband grew up a staunch but moderate Southern Baptist. We settled on a protestant church near our house. We are not anybody's poster family for "Nice Regular Church-Goers," although we talk about public service, helping others, etc.

I can't predict how this is going to turn out, but the one thing I am going to be with my kids is brutally honest. Right now I say, some people believe x, some people believe y (so far I think we covered the Judeo-Christian, Buddhist and some Muslim traditions). But I am never going to say that I KNOW x is true, because I don't. I will instead tell them it is up to them, and explain the difference between faith and fact, and let them choose.

[Anonymous]

22:02 again. Sorry for the typos.

[Anonymous]

This thread has degenerated because so many of the posters are degenerates who want all the benefits of religion without having to make any of the sacrifices. If you want to educate your children culturally find a good class for them. Telling kids to choose what they believe is the biggest cop out ever. They're children -- how can they possibly figure it out without any guidance from you? Disbelief born of conviction seems better than fainthearted half-belief.

[Anonymous]

Before this thread, I'd never seen anyone claim that atheism was the intellectually lazy route. I was raised in an extremely religious household, and when I questioned what seemed to be inconsistent or illogical rules or practices, I would basically get smacked down. Siblings and cousins would tell me that I should just relax and not overthink it, and enjoy all of the beautiful traditions. I didn't find the traditions beautiful, though of course that's just my own perspective and not a claim that they are or aren't. But they were largely spoiled for me by being attached to this very rigid, punitive, tribalistic treatment of the Old Testament. And although I kept hearing about the "scholarly" tradition of orthodox Judaism, none of what I ever saw involved questiioning the rules, particularly the rigid gender roles in the home and the synagogue. So I explored and studied and read and thought, and talked to people of other religions and of no religion, and concluded that religious belief was not consistent with my way of thinking, which was more scientific than what I was seeing. My cousins and siblings "believed" what my parents and theirs believed, because they were raised with it, and because they thought that it was a beautiful tradition and heritage. That's legitimate, but it is in no way an example of greater intellectual inquiry than the path that I chose. As an adult I've met many atheists who arrived where we are after a long journey away from what we were raised to believe.

My conclusion: it doesn't make sense to be born into belief. My genetic makeup should no more determine whether I believe the story of Abraham and Isaac (or more to the point, whether I find it creepy that a man would listen to a voice that told him to murder his child) than whether I favor gun control or like Blue guitar. These are adult judgments. If my daughter wants to read the Bible when she is old enough to discuss the very adult themes in it with me and/or a teacher, then of course she can. If she wants to explore religion, she can. But right now it would not be inquiry or faith-- it would be tradition and indoctrination.

So should you take your child to church OP? I would say only if you find church to be a meaningful and enriching experience that you would like to share with your child, fostering in the child a love of something that you also value. Or if church is the cornerstone of the community where you are, and you want your children to be a part of the activities, the comeraderie, the sens of belonging. If you want to give her morals, she's not going to get them from a sermon about Leviticus or even the Easter story right now; it's too abstract. She is going to get it from your loving example, from age-appropriate stories about morals, and from your family and other important people in your lives.

I don't really get why people are concerned about making sure that their children get access to religion as little ones. From my perspective, it's not like Mandarin Chinese, where if you don't start learning it young it's going to be really tough later. There are converts in my family who were secular or Christian until their 20s and became die-hard Orthodox Jews; it's not like going to medical school. You can find religion if you want it.

[Anonymous]

My husband and I both "gave at the office" with religion - both of us were raised by devout parents going to church every week - he Catholic, me Episcopal. We also went to religious high schools. I remember knowing at a pretty young age - 12 or so - that I was just going through the motions. DH figured it out in college. We are now both atheists who don't particularly feel like sharing that with our parents - or our children any time soon. So we married at a church and both our children are baptized, and we go to an Episcopal church at Christmas and Easter and perhaps a couple other Sundays during the year. When we explain religious concepts such as heaven, we say that "some people think" that's where you go when you die. Yes, we are hypocrites. But I think this will give our kids exposure to this part of the culture without immersing them in it or us badmouthing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Before this thread, I'd never seen anyone claim that atheism was the intellectually lazy route. I was raised in an extremely religious household, and when I questioned what seemed to be inconsistent or illogical rules or practices, I would basically get smacked down. Siblings and cousins would tell me that I should just relax and not overthink it, and enjoy all of the beautiful traditions. I didn't find the traditions beautiful, though of course that's just my own perspective and not a claim that they are or aren't. But they were largely spoiled for me by being attached to this very rigid, punitive, tribalistic treatment of the Old Testament. And although I kept hearing about the "scholarly" tradition of orthodox Judaism, none of what I ever saw involved questiioning the rules, particularly the rigid gender roles in the home and the synagogue. So I explored and studied and read and thought, and talked to people of other religions and of no religion, and concluded that religious belief was not consistent with my way of thinking, which was more scientific than what I was seeing. My cousins and siblings "believed" what my parents and theirs believed, because they were raised with it, and because they thought that it was a beautiful tradition and heritage. That's legitimate, but it is in no way an example of greater intellectual inquiry than the path that I chose. As an adult I've met many atheists who arrived where we are after a long journey away from what we were raised to believe.

My conclusion: it doesn't make sense to be born into belief. My genetic makeup should no more determine whether I believe the story of Abraham and Isaac (or more to the point, whether I find it creepy that a man would listen to a voice that told him to murder his child) than whether I favor gun control or like Blue guitar. These are adult judgments. If my daughter wants to read the Bible when she is old enough to discuss the very adult themes in it with me and/or a teacher, then of course she can. If she wants to explore religion, she can. But right now it would not be inquiry or faith-- it would be tradition and indoctrination.

So should you take your child to church OP? I would say only if you find church to be a meaningful and enriching experience that you would like to share with your child, fostering in the child a love of something that you also value. Or if church is the cornerstone of the community where you are, and you want your children to be a part of the activities, the comeraderie, the sens of belonging. If you want to give her morals, she's not going to get them from a sermon about Leviticus or even the Easter story right now; it's too abstract. She is going to get it from your loving example, from age-appropriate stories about morals, and from your family and other important people in your lives.

I don't really get why people are concerned about making sure that their children get access to religion as little ones. From my perspective, it's not like Mandarin Chinese, where if you don't start learning it young it's going to be really tough later. There are converts in my family who were secular or Christian until their 20s and became die-hard Orthodox Jews; it's not like going to medical school. You can find religion if you want it.

This is without a doubt the smartest, most diplomatic, most interesting post I have ever read on these boards. Thanks for this poster; you have put your finger on something I have been turning over but was not able to formulate or articulate as well as you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the PP atheists here. I just wanted to comment that my decision to not believe is not a cop out. I was raised evangelical Christian, went to a Christian schools, have read the bible in its entirety, have read some of the other religious books and have taken a few college classes on other religions. I find religion fascinating and take the time to learn about it, I just can't bring myself to believe in any of it.

New poster here. Just curious- - with all of that early exposure and education, do you have any belief that "it" (the bible, story of Jesus, etc) could be a possibility? That its feasible these things "could" have happened? Just curious.

I'm sure there are some historic aspects in the bible, but some of those stories are pretty out there. I think it is likely a lot of fables with a touch of history here and there. Talking donkeys? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Mary was impregnated by a spirit? Not buying that either.

It was written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus and I'm supposed to believe that his words were carried exactly for all those years? That does not seem any more likely than the talking donkeys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the PP atheists here. I just wanted to comment that my decision to not believe is not a cop out. I was raised evangelical Christian, went to a Christian schools, have read the bible in its entirety, have read some of the other religious books and have taken a few college classes on other religions. I find religion fascinating and take the time to learn about it, I just can't bring myself to believe in any of it.

New poster here. Just curious- - with all of that early exposure and education, do you have any belief that "it" (the bible, story of Jesus, etc) could be a possibility? That its feasible these things "could" have happened? Just curious.

Ok... you asked... but you're not going to like what I have to say.

I'm not the poster that was raised evangelical, but I have been posting from the atheist perspective. I did have a religious upbringing as well.

My answer is a definite no. When you read the Bible as a book, not as gospel, then it reads like a collection of fables and fairy tales - full of magic and fantasy. From my perspective, asking me to believe the stories in the Bible is no different than asking me to believe in Neverland and pixie dust.

And if you start looking into how the Bible was compiled, you run into a whole host of other problems, the result of which serve only to reenforce cultural norms from two thousand years ago. You're talking about a collection of essays that were compiled by a group of Catholic men at a point in history when they were trying consolidate power over large chunks of land and across many cultures, many of whom were not even consider "human" at the time. A lot of stuff was changed to suit their objectives, and quite a lot of stuff was left out. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but too few Christians know anything about how the Bible came to be written.

And when you look at how the church over the centuries has co-opted many non-Christian holidays, in order to "sweeten the deal" for their converts, it all just smells of intellectual corruption and coercion.

Having said all this, I didn't have an especially bad experience in church. I'm not bogged down with an Catholic guilt or anything, and I even have a favorite pastor who took the time to reach out to me when I was in high school. But the community aspect of church life isn't enough of a draw for me to pretend I believe something that I don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Before this thread, I'd never seen anyone claim that atheism was the intellectually lazy route. I was raised in an extremely religious household, and when I questioned what seemed to be inconsistent or illogical rules or practices, I would basically get smacked down. Siblings and cousins would tell me that I should just relax and not overthink it, and enjoy all of the beautiful traditions. I didn't find the traditions beautiful, though of course that's just my own perspective and not a claim that they are or aren't. But they were largely spoiled for me by being attached to this very rigid, punitive, tribalistic treatment of the Old Testament. And although I kept hearing about the "scholarly" tradition of orthodox Judaism, none of what I ever saw involved questiioning the rules, particularly the rigid gender roles in the home and the synagogue. So I explored and studied and read and thought, and talked to people of other religions and of no religion, and concluded that religious belief was not consistent with my way of thinking, which was more scientific than what I was seeing. My cousins and siblings "believed" what my parents and theirs believed, because they were raised with it, and because they thought that it was a beautiful tradition and heritage. That's legitimate, but it is in no way an example of greater intellectual inquiry than the path that I chose. As an adult I've met many atheists who arrived where we are after a long journey away from what we were raised to believe.

My conclusion: it doesn't make sense to be born into belief. My genetic makeup should no more determine whether I believe the story of Abraham and Isaac (or more to the point, whether I find it creepy that a man would listen to a voice that told him to murder his child) than whether I favor gun control or like Blue guitar. These are adult judgments. If my daughter wants to read the Bible when she is old enough to discuss the very adult themes in it with me and/or a teacher, then of course she can. If she wants to explore religion, she can. But right now it would not be inquiry or faith-- it would be tradition and indoctrination.

So should you take your child to church OP? I would say only if you find church to be a meaningful and enriching experience that you would like to share with your child, fostering in the child a love of something that you also value. Or if church is the cornerstone of the community where you are, and you want your children to be a part of the activities, the comeraderie, the sens of belonging. If you want to give her morals, she's not going to get them from a sermon about Leviticus or even the Easter story right now; it's too abstract. She is going to get it from your loving example, from age-appropriate stories about morals, and from your family and other important people in your lives.

I don't really get why people are concerned about making sure that their children get access to religion as little ones. From my perspective, it's not like Mandarin Chinese, where if you don't start learning it young it's going to be really tough later. There are converts in my family who were secular or Christian until their 20s and became die-hard Orthodox Jews; it's not like going to medical school. You can find religion if you want it.

Very well said - you bring up several very good points, particularly about religious culture, that haven't been said. Judaism is a great example b/c many Jews separate the religious beliefs from the cultural aspects of "being Jewish." I dated a guy for years who called himself a "secular Jew," which never quite jived with me. I find it dishonest to participate in religious ceremonies, and even say you treasure them, when you don't believe in the "why" part of what you're doing. BUT, I do understand that many Jews feel that being Jewish is more than just sharing a religion - there's more shared history.

Christianity in the US, on the other hand, is not especially culturally rich and isn't the foundation of our shared history. Our collective religious culture comes from intentionally austere versions of protestantism that specifically eschewed Catholic rituals. So, when the OP asked how to introduce the cultural aspects of religion to her children without going to church, I had to wonder what culture she was referring to. It's been a common response by a lot of people here that there are cultural things going on in church that apparently aren't available in other parts of our society. I'd have to really disagree with that assumption. I've been to lots of different services, and with the exception of a Romanian Orthodox wedding I attended a couple of years ago, I find most church experiences same-ish and boring, making it largely irrelevant as to which sect you belong to. And personally, I'm not keen to re-explore scarlet letters and witch hunts.

I get that church is the fallback for finding a sense of "community" in America. Especially when you're blending different cultures, the perception of common religious values makes it easier to integrate with people who look and act differently, speak a different language, etc. But these days we have more opportunities than ever to gather around more concrete shared interests. And when you take religion out of "community," it makes it easier still to accept and incorporate people from entirely different faiths... Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, Zoroastrian, or whatever. It's so much easier to make friends when you aren't preoccupied with whether that person is going to be a "bad influence" on your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When you read the Bible as a book, not as gospel, then it reads like a collection of fables and fairy tales - full of magic and fantasy. From my perspective, asking me to believe the stories in the Bible is no different than asking me to believe in Neverland and pixie dust.

This is a very interesting discussion, but I have to say to the OP that if you are thinking of going to church, the question of which church you go to is just as important as whether you go to church. There are many, many churches/congregations out there that do not want to tell you or your children what to believe and that understand that sacred texts like the Bible are not literally true. For many of us, they are great stories meant to provoke interesting discussions, and they need to be read as relics of the time in which they were produced.

I am agnostic in that I don't know if God exists or is just a stand-in for the intangible concepts like love, compassion, mercy, etc. Furthermore, I have met many clergy and scholars of all religions who feel the same. They know that God is not their "imaginary friend", as one PP put it, but rather that it is a concept that helps to bring focus to questions of what it means to have a meaningful life, to be a good person, and to be part of a community.

I have to admit, since I was raised without any kind of formal religious education, I do not have strong negative associations with organized religion. My experience is that you can find liberal/progressive communities in most of the major religions, if that is what you are looking for. I have recently decided to join a synagogue for the first time in my life because I want my children to grow up with the sense of community and tradition that I missed out on in my childhood. I found a synagogue that is interested in progressive social causes and a thoughtful, questioning approach to religious tradition, which is what works for me.

OP, if you are serious about attending church, then ask around and find the one that fits your philosophy.

[Anonymous]

I am an agnostic, and I don't think people's religion is nonsense. I also don't think agnostics/atheists are lazy. The important part is that I want to teach DD that no one's beliefs are nonsense--that there are many different beliefs.

I was brought up without religion, and DH is Catholic. We somewhat regularly go to Catholic church with DD, who is getting baptized when she's 10 mo. When she's older, we plan to take her to a Unitarian Universalist church, too. That way she gets some exposure to other religions, and maybe when she gets older she'll have a preference between the two. I am not going to join the Catholic church, but I don't mind going as a family sometimes. For us, exposing DD to two different religious experiences is the best option.

I think everyone needs to take a breath and stop being so judgmental. This is exactly what I want to avoid teaching my daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread has degenerated because so many of the posters are degenerates who want all the benefits of religion without having to make any of the sacrifices. If you want to educate your children culturally find a good class for them. Telling kids to choose what they believe is the biggest cop out ever. They're children -- how can they possibly figure it out without any guidance from you? Disbelief born of conviction seems better than fainthearted half-belief.

Why? I tell them it's a choice they will get to make when they are grownups. I say in our family this is what we believe, but I only go as far as what we do believe to be true. I also tell them what others believe. If you are not invested in having them believe the exact same thing as you do, it opens up all kinds of possibilities. I hope you are as flexible in your convicted disbelief. At Easter, we did talk about the crucifixion, and it led to a wonderful conversation about the death penalty in general and what I think about that. We also talked about mob rule and the whole "crucify him" dynamic, and why did the leaders want him killed, and the Roman occupation, and so on. I often have extended conversations with my six year old, who asks very good questions. Why should I treat religion any differently? As for it being half-belief, I do not think you truly understand the difference between fact and faith. Our faith, such as it is, also provides the backdrop for all the work we do supporting a village in Kenya through our church, other mission projects, our community service work, our service at church (shocking, but you can serve in a leadership position even when you don't show up every week!) and our pro bono work. Of course, you can't buy your way into heaven with good works. But, if this is being a degenerate, then I am perfectly comfortable with what I am doing. After all, it is not you who are the final judge.