Recent law grad/young mom here: how can I get law firm training without the 9 a.m.-7 p.m schedule?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son was born during law school. He is 2 years old now and attends part-time daycare (the hours can be increased). I took off one year after law school, but now I'm looking to gain training and experience at a law firm. I am doing some project work now, so I do have something current on my cv.

I would love to hear some advice on how I could be associated with a law firm and get some training, but without having to bill 2000 hours. Because of my husband's schedule I could not do the 9 a.m. - 7 p.m. schedule. If I ask to be an of counsel that would mean very little training/involvement, right?



TIA!

Because of husbands schedule? What do you mean? You would hire a nanny, or find a daycare that does long days. There are many double earner households where both parents work long hours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a nonprofit lawyer, can we please stop suggesting nonprofit jobs, as though they are easy to get? They are not. At least not the ones that actually pay. Also, lol'ing at the suggestion that a district attorney job is easy to get. The pay is shit, but they are highly desirable positions.

I would like to 2nd the person who suggested contract administration. I have background in this area and there is are lots of opportunities in this area, and also in the federal gov't. Look into NCMA.

I'm one of those who suggested finding work at a nonprofit. I didn't mean to suggest that'd be an easy job to get - not by any means. But the OP isn't categorically excluded from getting work with a nonprofit given her experience, the way she is from biglaw. I didn't see anyone suggest she should be a prosecutor - but she might be able to get work with a state government in some capacity.

But, yes, legal jobs are very competitive across the board now.

Most people don't realize that to get a program job at a nonprofit, you have to demonstrate commitment to that organization's cause (with your resume, not just lip service).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a nonprofit lawyer, can we please stop suggesting nonprofit jobs, as though they are easy to get? They are not. At least not the ones that actually pay. Also, lol'ing at the suggestion that a district attorney job is easy to get. The pay is shit, but they are highly desirable positions.

I would like to 2nd the person who suggested contract administration. I have background in this area and there is are lots of opportunities in this area, and also in the federal gov't. Look into NCMA.

I'm one of those who suggested finding work at a nonprofit. I didn't mean to suggest that'd be an easy job to get - not by any means. But the OP isn't categorically excluded from getting work with a nonprofit given her experience, the way she is from biglaw. I didn't see anyone suggest she should be a prosecutor - but she might be able to get work with a state government in some capacity.

But, yes, legal jobs are very competitive across the board now.

Most people don't realize that to get a program job at a nonprofit, you have to demonstrate commitment to that organization's cause (with your resume, not just lip service).

I'm the nonprofit lawyer above, and I can tell you it's pretty unheard of for there to be entry-level lawyer positions in nonprofits. Unless you are talking about legal aid, and even that is competitive up here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work for legal aid. 40-45 hours a week and I go to court at least once or twice a week. But the application process is quite competitive and you have to demonstrate (via your resume) commitment to serving the community.

Yep, it's pretty competitive. Like prosecution or public defenders' offices, legal aid programs are proving grounds for hungry young attorneys up here. I've known more than a few who cut their teeth at legal aid and ended up with positions at excellent small/regional firms. That said, their teeth were really sharp to start with.

[Anonymous]

I am a former big-law attorney, now mostly a SAHM with occasional contract work. I have been looking for basically the same job you are looking for. Here is what I think:

1. You won't get a part time job at a big law firm. Part-time is relunctantly given to attorneys who have been there a long time and whose skill set they can't lose.

2. I do contract work for small firms/solo practitioners. Most seem to be looking for attorneys with experience so they can just hand off the work with minimal training. Contract work for new attorneys seems to be mostly document review. Unless you really need the cash, this would be pretty depressing work.

3. I think you may have better luck looking outside private practice. State or city government? Being a permanent clerk to a judge? Working at a law school career office?

Good luck in your search.

[Anonymous]

The reason OP is getting a negative reaction is that she asked how she could get an 80 hour a week job without doing the work, then proceeded to ask if she could get a job that requires five years of experience at that job without having any experience (part-time), then asked if she could get a job that requires 13 years of experience without having any (of counsel. People told her it was impossible to do any of the things and she started whining about how unfair life is in this country.

There are decent jobs in law. I have one. It is family friendly. It is not in a law firm. I used to work in a law firm. My hours were at least 9-9 everyday with at least 8 hours over the weekend, but I was often there at midnight, even on the weekends. There was also a lot of travel with no notice. After 6 years, I went part-time, and that was still 9-5:30 five days a week with a few extra hours from home. The firm worked hard to keep me, but that schedule even wasn't conducive to good firm work. I never let myself slide, but I wasn't happy anymore as the job requires full attention. Companies have in house lawyers to handle daily rhythmic work that can be scheduled. They pay out the big bucks to firm attorneys when their in house people can't handle it. Therefore, almost everything in a firm is an emergency and leaving at six means you miss a ton of the action. Every morning I would be updated on all sorts of developments and I had to try very hard to remain part of the team. I left because I knew that was unsustainable. Big law is just not compatible with having a life. Oh, and first years have no value other than to do grunt work at times nobody else wants to. A first year with a limited schedule is a complete waste, and the only way that it is possible is if the kid is the child of the CEO of a MAJOR client.

There are other jobs though. As I said, I have one. I work from home mostly and I am done at 3. I work in government in a non-litigating position. Look for those, or clerkships - a career clerk is a great job- or nonprofit. Or be creative. None of these jobs are easy to get though, so you will have to look hard and if you come off like a whiny, entitled brat nobody will want you anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason OP is getting a negative reaction is that she asked how she could get an 80 hour a week job without doing the work, then proceeded to ask if she could get a job that requires five years of experience at that job without having any experience (part-time), then asked if she could get a job that requires 13 years of experience without having any (of counsel. People told her it was impossible to do any of the things and she started whining about how unfair life is in this country.

There are decent jobs in law. I have one. It is family friendly. It is not in a law firm. I used to work in a law firm. My hours were at least 9-9 everyday with at least 8 hours over the weekend, but I was often there at midnight, even on the weekends. There was also a lot of travel with no notice. After 6 years, I went part-time, and that was still 9-5:30 five days a week with a few extra hours from home. The firm worked hard to keep me, but that schedule even wasn't conducive to good firm work. I never let myself slide, but I wasn't happy anymore as the job requires full attention. Companies have in house lawyers to handle daily rhythmic work that can be scheduled. They pay out the big bucks to firm attorneys when their in house people can't handle it. Therefore, almost everything in a firm is an emergency and leaving at six means you miss a ton of the action. Every morning I would be updated on all sorts of developments and I had to try very hard to remain part of the team. I left because I knew that was unsustainable. Big law is just not compatible with having a life. Oh, and first years have no value other than to do grunt work at times nobody else wants to. A first year with a limited schedule is a complete waste, and the only way that it is possible is if the kid is the child of the CEO of a MAJOR client.

There are other jobs though. As I said, I have one. I work from home mostly and I am done at 3. I work in government in a non-litigating position. Look for those, or clerkships - a career clerk is a great job- or nonprofit. Or be creative. None of these jobs are easy to get though, so you will have to look hard and if you come off like a whiny, entitled brat nobody will want you anywhere.

I could have written this post! I had the same experience as PP. I went part time for my last year at a big firm in an attempt to get some balance in my life after eight grueling years of working all of the time (and it's always in your head, as PP said, so even if you're not billing, you're tethered to the Blackberry, worrying about work stuff). I wanted to have children and thought if I could do a reduced schedule, it might work. So I went part time, but that meant 9-6, five days a week. Which wouldn't be so bad except there were always "emergencies" so I worked well beyond 6 at least two or three times a week. After a year, I gave up and got a government job (luckily, they aren't easy to get!) and have much more balance.

OP, it is unclear what kind of law firm experience you are looking for. Do you want to be a litigator? If so, a reduced schedule is extremely difficult. Are you interested in a more regulatory practice? If so, perhaps you could find a trade association or something like that. At least when I was at a big law firm (only a couple of years ago), the junior associates were hired from summer associate classes or from current law clerks looking for a new gig. So it is difficult to join as a junior associate without that connection. If you provide more details (like your school rank generally, what you actually are interested in, etc.), people may be able to give you more ideas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son was born during law school. He is 2 years old now and attends part-time daycare (the hours can be increased). I took off one year after law school, but now I'm looking to gain training and experience at a law firm. I am doing some project work now, so I do have something current on my cv.

I would love to hear some advice on how I could be associated with a law firm and get some training, but without having to bill 2000 hours. Because of my husband's schedule I could not do the 9 a.m. - 7 p.m. schedule. If I ask to be an of counsel that would mean very little training/involvement, right?



TIA!

Because of husbands schedule? What do you mean? You would hire a nanny, or find a daycare that does long days. There are many double earner households where both parents work long hours

You can't work at a law firm if your husbands schedule trumps yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a former big-law attorney, now mostly a SAHM with occasional contract work. I have been looking for basically the same job you are looking for. Here is what I think:

1. You won't get a part time job at a big law firm. Part-time is relunctantly given to attorneys who have been there a long time and whose skill set they can't lose.

2. I do contract work for small firms/solo practitioners. Most seem to be looking for attorneys with experience so they can just hand off the work with minimal training. Contract work for new attorneys seems to be mostly document review. Unless you really need the cash, this would be pretty depressing work.

3. I think you may have better luck looking outside private practice. State or city government? Being a permanent clerk to a judge? Working at a law school career office?

Good luck in your search.

+1 on this. DH is a part time lawyer in biglaw after a career in biglaw. They just give him the contracts and he know exactly what to do. They would prefer he work full time as of counsel, but he keeps declining. The only reason he can do this is many years of experience and a high ranking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son was born during law school. He is 2 years old now and attends part-time daycare (the hours can be increased). I took off one year after law school, but now I'm looking to gain training and experience at a law firm. I am doing some project work now, so I do have something current on my cv.

I would love to hear some advice on how I could be associated with a law firm and get some training, but without having to bill 2000 hours. Because of my husband's schedule I could not do the 9 a.m. - 7 p.m. schedule. If I ask to be an of counsel that would mean very little training/involvement, right?



TIA!

Because of husbands schedule? What do you mean? You would hire a nanny, or find a daycare that does long days. There are many double earner households where both parents work long hours

We have a friend who is "part time" She is a star. Her part time is 50 hours a week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I bet that some of these nasty comments come from men.

And I would say that you are wrong.

I have found that on issues like this, women who have "made the sacrifice" tend to be the harshest when it comes to advising women who want to do it another way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet that some of these nasty comments come from men.

And I would say that you are wrong.

I have found that on issues like this, women who have "made the sacrifice" tend to be the harshest when it comes to advising women who want to do it another way.

I don't really see any nasty responses. It just seems like OP is clueless and that is really shocking. Does she really think she can waltz in to a firm and get a part-time of counsel job with zero experience? Come on. Either she is the most clueless law school grad ever or she is pulling your leg. Neither bode well for getting a job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I bet that some of these nasty comments come from men.

And I would say that you are wrong.

I have found that on issues like this, women who have "made the sacrifice" tend to be the harshest when it comes to advising women who want to do it another way.

I don't really see any nasty responses. It just seems like OP is clueless and that is really shocking. Does she really think she can waltz in to a firm and get a part-time of counsel job with zero experience? Come on. Either she is the most clueless law school grad ever or she is pulling your leg. Neither bode well for getting a job.

Agree. Some of the responses are a bit snarky but they are accurate. What OP's asking for is just not realistic. She says she can't do a 9-7 schedule in big law -- well, big law isn't actually a 9 to 7 schedule. It's a 9-7 schedule on the good days, with many long nights and weekends thrown in for good measure, often with little warning and for weeks at a time. Its why I left. I now have a government litigating position that's an 8:30 to 5 schedule. Because it's appellate litigation, it's much more predictable than trials (which I used to do and hated), and I really do stick to my hours 90% of the time and get all my work done. It's amazing and I love it. But I got it by having top credentials, including top school, clerkship, and 3 years busting my butt at a prestigious law firm. And I'm not even at a well-known agency; we're small, not sought after, and boring by most people's standards. The sought-after agencies hire either top laterals, or entry levels through their Honors programs, which generally require great credentials. Now, maybe OP has these credentials, and would have a chance at something like that. But if she doesn't, she needs to be realistic and look at other options. The only way she will do big law on a 9-7 schedule is if she is a staff attorney or is contracted as a document reviewer. Both are awful, soul-sucking jobs.