Recent law grad/young mom here: how can I get law firm training without the 9 a.m.-7 p.m schedule?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I bet that some of these nasty comments come from men.

Yes, meaning some are from women.

[Anonymous]

who cares which gendered people are making the comments? part of happiness in life is being able to make effective, realistic goals for yourself.

someone who doesn't want to work very long hours - and doesn't bring anything else to the table, like clients or specialized skills - won't be working at a law firm. any more than someone who hasn't been to med school will be a brain surgeon.

[Anonymous]

OP is getting flack because we can't understand how someone who went through law school doesn't understand how things work. She seems totally clueless. Getting hired at a big firm or really any sized reputable firm is a very competetive process. Entry level jobs withe the feds or in nonprofits are few and also competetive. Law students basically get firm jobs through oci (the ones with top grades) or intern and develop specialized skill sets if they cant get hired on grades alone. Basically the entry level train has left the station and op will have to scramble hard in this tight job market to get any sort of legal job. So basically we are incredulous that she has zero idea about the hard work and sacrifices her classmates have been making and feels entitled to the dream job situation. This is why millenials get a bad rap!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi OP - You are not going to get an of counsel position, given your qualifications and experience. Those are for experienced lawyers who have special expertise, or who have lots of clients.

I am a former biglaw lawyer with lots of friends who are still in the field. It's grueling. And, honestly, if you are a year out of law school and haven't already started working in that world - and/or don't have the sort of experience that makes you valuable to a firm - it's too late for you to get in there.

Which is great, since that is incompatible with what you say you're looking for, anyway - which is a lawyer job with reasonable hours.

Whether you like it or not, law firm jobs take up your life. In return, you get paid a lot and get some prestige. That's the tradeoff.

But there are lots of ways to be a lawyer. Biglaw is just one of those ways. You can look for a job with the city, you can look for a job with a nonprofit, you can work for a small firm or a solo practitioner, you can do document review. Look for a job with the federal government, even - probably not DOJ, but, like, I have a friend who's a staff lawyer with the SSA, handling administrative appeals.

You have options. Biglaw isn't one of them. Saying that isn't fair won't help your situation.

This is the most accurate, most helpful, most honest, and most direct response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Holy cow. OP you sure you want to stay in a career field with such condescending people? Sounds like you'd be dodging a bullet if the whole law thing didn't work out.

C'mon you guys. Especially the moms. If you all are brilliant and articulate and professional enough to be successful attorneys surely you could come up with career advice (even advisement NOT to pursue law) that doesn't sound like you're a 7th grade mean girl.

I don't know. The legal industry, particularly in a city like DC with such a high concentration of top-educated lawyers, is over-saturated, cutthroat competitive, and as such the jobs it does provide are often really harsh and not family friendly.

If OP graduated 2+ years ago, has worked minimally, and didn't attend a top law school in the top her her class, she is unlikely to find regular employment in DC that is desirable or prestigious. Add to that that she wants a family friendly or part-time position (which with a law firm often requires showing your stuff first, being really valuable, and still then part-time means 35-40 hours per week), and her changes are abysmal. That's not mean. It's true. And it sucks. But in this case the truth sucks.

Document review is something she can do and sounds like it might make sense for her. If she can get tied to a small firm that might take her on for small projects, that might work, but even those are few and far between and almost always reserved for people with existing connections and/or have proven themselves. Volunteering or interning first with a very small firm may be a way into a gig like this; get there, then show them how you can contribute, if you can contribute.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy cow. OP you sure you want to stay in a career field with such condescending people? Sounds like you'd be dodging a bullet if the whole law thing didn't work out.

C'mon you guys. Especially the moms. If you all are brilliant and articulate and professional enough to be successful attorneys surely you could come up with career advice (even advisement NOT to pursue law) that doesn't sound like you're a 7th grade mean girl.

You really expect people who have pursued and succeeded in a highly competitive field, filled with Type As, often at the expense of their personal life, to tell someone how to get what they have, without any of that pesky commitment and sacrifice stuff?


Hahaaaaa.......

At the expense of your tact, too? Worth it?

I think there's a place for everyone. I agree that in law, you're hard-pressed to find successful women who haven't had to sacrifice just about everything. It sucks but it's a fact. I know of a couple of women in that field who have found alternative schedules/arrangements that afford them some more freedom family-wise, albeit at the expense of salary and promotion potential. It sounds like OP is willing to forgo some things to get more flexibility. Anyway, I guess I'm sensitive to her plight because I came on this board asking for similar advice (in a different field) and was chewed up and spit out. I was stunned by how vicious other moms could be. Honesty is cool (and welcomed) but I think we'd all sound a lot more honest and reasonable if we talked to each other on here the way we talked to our friends in the flesh. fWIW, despite the naysayers I found a niche that allowed me to have a flexible part time schedule and still stay current in my field. I had to go after it and create opportunities for myself, and I make a lot less money than I did before. But there's a balance and it works for my family (right now). Anything is possible, even if it's the exception and not the rule.

Well, anything might be possible, but what I gather from your ramblings is that you haven't really learned much from all the advice you got here - try using paragraphs in the future. My eyes glazed over after just a couple of your run-on sentences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy cow. OP you sure you want to stay in a career field with such condescending people? Sounds like you'd be dodging a bullet if the whole law thing didn't work out.

C'mon you guys. Especially the moms. If you all are brilliant and articulate and professional enough to be successful attorneys surely you could come up with career advice (even advisement NOT to pursue law) that doesn't sound like you're a 7th grade mean girl.

You really expect people who have pursued and succeeded in a highly competitive field, filled with Type As, often at the expense of their personal life, to tell someone how to get what they have, without any of that pesky commitment and sacrifice stuff?


Hahaaaaa.......

At the expense of your tact, too? Worth it?

I think there's a place for everyone. I agree that in law, you're hard-pressed to find successful women who haven't had to sacrifice just about everything. It sucks but it's a fact. I know of a couple of women in that field who have found alternative schedules/arrangements that afford them some more freedom family-wise, albeit at the expense of salary and promotion potential. It sounds like OP is willing to forgo some things to get more flexibility. Anyway, I guess I'm sensitive to her plight because I came on this board asking for similar advice (in a different field) and was chewed up and spit out. I was stunned by how vicious other moms could be. Honesty is cool (and welcomed) but I think we'd all sound a lot more honest and reasonable if we talked to each other on here the way we talked to our friends in the flesh. fWIW, despite the naysayers I found a niche that allowed me to have a flexible part time schedule and still stay current in my field. I had to go after it and create opportunities for myself, and I make a lot less money than I did before. But there's a balance and it works for my family (right now). Anything is possible, even if it's the exception and not the rule.

Well, anything might be possible, but what I gather from your ramblings is that you haven't really learned much from all the advice you got here - try using paragraphs in the future. My eyes glazed over after just a couple of your run-on sentences.

NP here. What a bitter, nasty response. You don't seem witty, pp, just mean and sad. And if you are the same as the pp above who is amazed that anyone would want a law career that doesn't ruin their personal life, well, I'm sorry things appear to be that way for you, but it's not for everyone. It's not for me. I have a law degree and a career I'm very happy with, with no "sacrifice." OP is a little silly for expecting to walk into a law firm and reform the culture somehow, but I give her more slack than I give the mean people here. She is unemployed and worried and confused, what is your excuse? Y'all are just pathetic.

[Anonymous]

Seek out jobs with solo attorney or small practices looking for extra help but not willing to commit to a full-time employee. Look in the suburbs. It might not be high brow work, but it will get you in the door at the level you are looking for and you can hopefully develop a niche from there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seek out jobs with solo attorney or small practices looking for extra help but not willing to commit to a full-time employee. Look in the suburbs. It might not be high brow work, but it will get you in the door at the level you are looking for and you can hopefully develop a niche from there.

This is a good idea. Or look into volunteering or working for non-profits. These options will get you training. The rest is up to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seek out jobs with solo attorney or small practices looking for extra help but not willing to commit to a full-time employee. Look in the suburbs. It might not be high brow work, but it will get you in the door at the level you are looking for and you can hopefully develop a niche from there.

Assistant to a lawyer at a non profit. If you are lucky. You have several strikes against you. Taking off a year with no experience to have a baby does not look good (although not fair)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seek out jobs with solo attorney or small practices looking for extra help but not willing to commit to a full-time employee. Look in the suburbs. It might not be high brow work, but it will get you in the door at the level you are looking for and you can hopefully develop a niche from there.

Assistant to a lawyer at a non profit. If you are lucky. You have several strikes against you. Taking off a year with no experience to have a baby does not look good (although not fair)

It has nothing to do with being "fair" - this is a simple issue of supply and demand. There are so many people with law degrees out there that employers don't have to take a chance on someone who hasn't shown a serious commitment to her career, this soon after getting her degree.

Every competitive field is the same way. You have to be special in some way in order to do really well - be exceptionally talented, work exceptionally hard, have exceptional connections, etc. Sometimes you will luck out and someone will want to take a chance on you because they see something in you that they want to develop. But you have to have the social capital, in that case, to meet that someone who's in a position to do that for you.

[Anonymous]

As a nonprofit lawyer, can we please stop suggesting nonprofit jobs, as though they are easy to get? They are not. At least not the ones that actually pay. Also, lol'ing at the suggestion that a district attorney job is easy to get. The pay is shit, but they are highly desirable positions.

I would like to 2nd the person who suggested contract administration. I have background in this area and there is are lots of opportunities in this area, and also in the federal gov't. Look into NCMA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a nonprofit lawyer, can we please stop suggesting nonprofit jobs, as though they are easy to get? They are not. At least not the ones that actually pay. Also, lol'ing at the suggestion that a district attorney job is easy to get. The pay is shit, but they are highly desirable positions.

I would like to 2nd the person who suggested contract administration. I have background in this area and there is are lots of opportunities in this area, and also in the federal gov't. Look into NCMA.

I'm one of those who suggested finding work at a nonprofit. I didn't mean to suggest that'd be an easy job to get - not by any means. But the OP isn't categorically excluded from getting work with a nonprofit given her experience, the way she is from biglaw. I didn't see anyone suggest she should be a prosecutor - but she might be able to get work with a state government in some capacity.

But, yes, legal jobs are very competitive across the board now.

[Anonymous]

I work for legal aid. 40-45 hours a week and I go to court at least once or twice a week. But the application process is quite competitive and you have to demonstrate (via your resume) commitment to serving the community.

[Anonymous]

I would try an alternate field. Real estate, planning offices, economic development, banking maybe - you may be able to find a job where legal training is admired, but that don't have crazy hours.