Confronting the rise & allure of Militant Islam

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote: I truly believe that what is happening across the Levant is political... I think any solution to this can not ignore the context of this violence: there are political and social causes that allow radical voices to be heard and acted upon, and this has nothing to do with the core values or practices of Muslims as a whole. We need to present a different ideology to the marginalized who fall for the radical rhetoric, and that starts with a conversation, but any attempt to modify the core values of the religion itself will fail.

Thank you Muslima. I only disagree with one thing -- we cannot extricate religion and politics in Iraq. Here in the US, that separation is much more distinct, but not in Iraq. That is my point -- Islam and politics are so intertwined, to say an event is only caused by politics and not religion is not accurate at all.

I agree with you -- "we need to present a different ideology to the marginalized who fall for the radical rhetoric, and that starts with a conversation." Well said. A conversation about what? An ideology about what? The disenfrachised Maslawis didn't commit to nonviolence to seek political gains. They welcomed a violent group of Sunnis who promised power and control. To them it was a win- (political) -win (religious) situation. Religion is absolutely and unquestionably a driver in what occurred on June 10th.

You know, the Iraqi scholar Fanar Haddad stated that more often than not, the intricacies of faith and theology are about as relevant in Iraqi sectarian dynamics as Christianity is in the rhetoric of European far-right groups.It is religion as identity rather than religion as faith that is being mobilized . Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of life, and so it differs from other religions in many ways. However, the relationship between 'Islam' and politics is not as simple as many make it seem.. So, 'Islam cannot mix with politics' is not an accurate statement. Nor is 'political matters cannot be dissociated from Islam' an accurate statement either. A lot of Muslims have created a "do-it yourself Islam" that is used to justify every action against the people that they perceive as oppressors. I quoted Yasir Qadhi yesterday, a Muslim scholar that I profoundly respect, and will repeat what he said again since he is way more eloquent than I am. Talking about these issues and he said every single terrorist, from Bin Laden himself, to the shoe-bomber and under-bomber and Boston bomber and every other bomber in between, ALWAYS mentions the deaths of civilians in Muslims lands as a direct cause of his own terrorist operations. While I continue to oppose these groups who claim to defend Islam (because killing innocent people is not allowed in Islam, and because attacking the superpowers of the West will result in the deaths of even more Muslims around the world), we do need to move the conversation beyond just 'condemning' every violent act from a Muslim radical, and realize that what is at stake is the continuing appeal amongst a segment of Muslims to Islamic violence as a response to Western aggression. Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.'
As a Muslim, I denounce such wanton violence and blood being shed in the name of my faith. The question is, as an American (or British, or French...): do you as well denounce the violence that your country have wrought across the globe?What we need in today's world, other than cases of self-defense of course, is to spread a culture of mutual co-existence and multi-faith dialogue and cooperation.

The nerve. When you are pandering to Americans in an attempt to damn Europeans , you talk about how inclusive this society is and how happy you are to live here rather than in racist Europe. And then in the next breath, Americans become "you" when you are trying to justify anything Muslims do.
Guess what? If you are living here, you are as much a beneficiary of the drive for extremely cheap oil at any cost that has motivated Western interference in the Middle East for over a century. You and your family are benefiting from the social capital, economic stability and prosperity that are founded on that resource. In fact, chances are high that your family would never have been let in here absent the ensuing economic need for foreign labor.

And if you think that Middle Eastern leaders were going to share the wealth with you and enable you to stay put wherever it is you hail from had there not been any Western Imperialism, I have a bridge to sell you. There is only one instance in which that might have theoretically happened and that was under the Communist government of Mossadegh in Iran in the 50s'. I say "theoretically" because we know how things end up working out under Communist leadership.

So you are enjoying a nice lifestyle at the cost of "wringing violence throughout the world", and no amount of prayer is going to compensate for that.

You can not think critically! My post stated clearly that I love America for its freedom and acceptance but it is not Perfect. You think every American has to agree with everything the government does/say to be patriotic? We don't live in a dictatorship, my friend, so I am allowed to talk about the freedom of America in one breath and the foreign policy issues our government has been creating for over a decade on the next and that doesn't make me UnAmerican. My family didn't come to America for cheap labor, really but that's a discussion for another time, financially, we have probably contributed to America more $$$$ than you could see in your lifetime, so get of off your high horses. And I care where my tax dollars go, so I will use this free speech of mine whenever I feel like my $$$ are not being used for the greater good of humanity, that's the Muslim or should I say American thing to do

[Anonymous]

Saudia Arabian cleric has banned the making of snowmen with your children as unislamic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Saudia Arabian cleric has banned the making of snowmen with your children as unislamic.

That doesn't sound alluring (referring to the thread title).

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote: I truly believe that what is happening across the Levant is political... I think any solution to this can not ignore the context of this violence: there are political and social causes that allow radical voices to be heard and acted upon, and this has nothing to do with the core values or practices of Muslims as a whole. We need to present a different ideology to the marginalized who fall for the radical rhetoric, and that starts with a conversation, but any attempt to modify the core values of the religion itself will fail.

Thank you Muslima. I only disagree with one thing -- we cannot extricate religion and politics in Iraq. Here in the US, that separation is much more distinct, but not in Iraq. That is my point -- Islam and politics are so intertwined, to say an event is only caused by politics and not religion is not accurate at all.

I agree with you -- "we need to present a different ideology to the marginalized who fall for the radical rhetoric, and that starts with a conversation." Well said. A conversation about what? An ideology about what? The disenfrachised Maslawis didn't commit to nonviolence to seek political gains. They welcomed a violent group of Sunnis who promised power and control. To them it was a win- (political) -win (religious) situation. Religion is absolutely and unquestionably a driver in what occurred on June 10th.

You know, the Iraqi scholar Fanar Haddad stated that more often than not, the intricacies of faith and theology are about as relevant in Iraqi sectarian dynamics as Christianity is in the rhetoric of European far-right groups.It is religion as identity rather than religion as faith that is being mobilized . Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of life, and so it differs from other religions in many ways. However, the relationship between 'Islam' and politics is not as simple as many make it seem.. So, 'Islam cannot mix with politics' is not an accurate statement. Nor is 'political matters cannot be dissociated from Islam' an accurate statement either. A lot of Muslims have created a "do-it yourself Islam" that is used to justify every action against the people that they perceive as oppressors. I quoted Yasir Qadhi yesterday, a Muslim scholar that I profoundly respect, and will repeat what he said again since he is way more eloquent than I am. Talking about these issues and he said every single terrorist, from Bin Laden himself, to the shoe-bomber and under-bomber and Boston bomber and every other bomber in between, ALWAYS mentions the deaths of civilians in Muslims lands as a direct cause of his own terrorist operations. While I continue to oppose these groups who claim to defend Islam (because killing innocent people is not allowed in Islam, and because attacking the superpowers of the West will result in the deaths of even more Muslims around the world), we do need to move the conversation beyond just 'condemning' every violent act from a Muslim radical, and realize that what is at stake is the continuing appeal amongst a segment of Muslims to Islamic violence as a response to Western aggression. Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.'
As a Muslim, I denounce such wanton violence and blood being shed in the name of my faith. The question is, as an American (or British, or French...): do you as well denounce the violence that your country have wrought across the globe?What we need in today's world, other than cases of self-defense of course, is to spread a culture of mutual co-existence and multi-faith dialogue and cooperation.

The nerve. When you are pandering to Americans in an attempt to damn Europeans , you talk about how inclusive this society is and how happy you are to live here rather than in racist Europe. And then in the next breath, Americans become "you" when you are trying to justify anything Muslims do.
Guess what? If you are living here, you are as much a beneficiary of the drive for extremely cheap oil at any cost that has motivated Western interference in the Middle East for over a century. You and your family are benefiting from the social capital, economic stability and prosperity that are founded on that resource. In fact, chances are high that your family would never have been let in here absent the ensuing economic need for foreign labor.

And if you think that Middle Eastern leaders were going to share the wealth with you and enable you to stay put wherever it is you hail from had there not been any Western Imperialism, I have a bridge to sell you. There is only one instance in which that might have theoretically happened and that was under the Communist government of Mossadegh in Iran in the 50s'. I say "theoretically" because we know how things end up working out under Communist leadership.

So you are enjoying a nice lifestyle at the cost of "wringing violence throughout the world", and no amount of prayer is going to compensate for that.

You can not think critically! My post stated clearly that I love America for its freedom and acceptance but it is not Perfect. You think every American has to agree with everything the government does/say to be patriotic? We don't live in a dictatorship, my friend, so I am allowed to talk about the freedom of America in one breath and the foreign policy issues our government has been creating for over a decade on the next and that doesn't make me UnAmerican. My family didn't come to America for cheap labor, really but that's a discussion for another time, financially, we have probably contributed to America more $$$$ than you could see in your lifetime, so get of off your high horses. And I care where my tax dollars go, so I will use this free speech of mine whenever I feel like my $$$ are not being used for the greater good of humanity, that's the Muslim or should I say American thing to do

Oh, so, in one breath it's "your government" and in the next it's "our government"?
I realize the cognitive dissonance is overwhelming. However, the fact remains that as long as you live here and pay your tax dollars to Uncle Sam, you are a direct beneficiary of all of its policies abroad, no matter how much time you spend on your devout soapbox. The more $$$$ you contribute, the more you enable the policies you so stridently denounce. There's no exculpation to be gained by suddenly calling it "your government." In the words of Ricky Ricardo, you may "have some esplanin' to do" before your Maker.

[Anonymous]

This Yasir Qadhi quote is really bugging me: "Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.' "

Is Qadhi's quote really true in the hearts of Muslims, "there's only so much we as Muslims can do" to stop these folks from murdering innocents?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This Yasir Qadhi quote is really bugging me: "Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.' "

Is Qadhi's quote really true in the hearts of Muslims, "there's only so much we as Muslims can do" to stop these folks from murdering innocents?

I'm not sure. I also wonder if Muslima realizes how she is portraying a moderate Muslim. Maybe she is actually a radical extremist cleric.

[Anonymous]

Maybe she is actually a radical extremist cleric.

That thought crossed my mind, too!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Maybe she is actually a radical extremist cleric.

That thought crossed my mind, too!

I believe that “she” is a “he."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This Yasir Qadhi quote is really bugging me: "Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.' "

Is Qadhi's quote really true in the hearts of Muslims, "there's only so much we as Muslims can do" to stop these folks from murdering innocents?

Another PP here....why does this quote bother you? IMO, it gives the proper context for the move towards radicalism in a lot of places. Also, and rightfully so, there are radicalized folks in any religion and you cannot hold the rest of that religion accountable for the acts of the radicals. I mean, most Muslims have condemned the attacks - what else would you have them do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Yasir Qadhi quote is really bugging me: "Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.' "

Is Qadhi's quote really true in the hearts of Muslims, "there's only so much we as Muslims can do" to stop these folks from murdering innocents?

Another PP here....why does this quote bother you? IMO, it gives the proper context for the move towards radicalism in a lot of places. Also, and rightfully so, there are radicalized folks in any religion and you cannot hold the rest of that religion accountable for the acts of the radicals. I mean, most Muslims have condemned the attacks - what else would you have them do?

I find the idea very medieval, honestly. I can understand the sentiment that those religious extremists and their behavior has nothing to do with me. But that's not what he said, nor is it what he seemed to mean. He said when the West stops doing X, then we will do more to stop the hot-headed radicals in our midst.

It is what one of the Nigerian military leaders said: elect me and I will stop the BH, since they are my Muslim brothers. When doesn't he go ahead and stop them now?

[Anonymous]

^ Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Yasir Qadhi quote is really bugging me: "Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.' "

Is Qadhi's quote really true in the hearts of Muslims, "there's only so much we as Muslims can do" to stop these folks from murdering innocents?

Another PP here....why does this quote bother you? IMO, it gives the proper context for the move towards radicalism in a lot of places. Also, and rightfully so, there are radicalized folks in any religion and you cannot hold the rest of that religion accountable for the acts of the radicals. I mean, most Muslims have condemned the attacks - what else would you have them do?

I find the idea very medieval, honestly. I can understand the sentiment that those religious extremists and their behavior has nothing to do with me. But that's not what he said, nor is it what he seemed to mean. He said when the West stops doing X, then we will do more to stop the hot-headed radicals in our midst.

It is what one of the Nigerian military leaders said: elect me and I will stop the BH, since they are my Muslim brothers. When doesn't he go ahead and stop them now?

He's not saying that. He's saying that they don't have the power to stop terrorists as long as the west gives radicals a cause to rally around. I think that is easily understandable. The muslim community has the power to persuade them but it's an uphill battle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Yasir Qadhi quote is really bugging me: "Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.' "

Is Qadhi's quote really true in the hearts of Muslims, "there's only so much we as Muslims can do" to stop these folks from murdering innocents?

Another PP here....why does this quote bother you? IMO, it gives the proper context for the move towards radicalism in a lot of places. Also, and rightfully so, there are radicalized folks in any religion and you cannot hold the rest of that religion accountable for the acts of the radicals. I mean, most Muslims have condemned the attacks - what else would you have them do?

I find the idea very medieval, honestly. I can understand the sentiment that those religious extremists and their behavior has nothing to do with me. But that's not what he said, nor is it what he seemed to mean. He said when the West stops doing X, then we will do more to stop the hot-headed radicals in our midst.

It is what one of the Nigerian military leaders said: elect me and I will stop the BH, since they are my Muslim brothers. When doesn't he go ahead and stop them now?

PP here. I did not read it like that. I read it to mean that "your actions towards Muslims are pushing these folks more towards radicalism and once they get to that point, I cannot control them."

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Yasir Qadhi quote is really bugging me: "Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.' "

Is Qadhi's quote really true in the hearts of Muslims, "there's only so much we as Muslims can do" to stop these folks from murdering innocents?

Another PP here....why does this quote bother you? IMO, it gives the proper context for the move towards radicalism in a lot of places. Also, and rightfully so, there are radicalized folks in any religion and you cannot hold the rest of that religion accountable for the acts of the radicals. I mean, most Muslims have condemned the attacks - what else would you have them do?

I find the idea very medieval, honestly. I can understand the sentiment that those religious extremists and their behavior has nothing to do with me. But that's not what he said, nor is it what he seemed to mean. He said when the West stops doing X, then we will do more to stop the hot-headed radicals in our midst.

It is what one of the Nigerian military leaders said: elect me and I will stop the BH, since they are my Muslim brothers. When doesn't he go ahead and stop them now?

He's not saying that. He's saying that they don't have the power to stop terrorists as long as the west gives radicals a cause to rally around. I think that is easily understandable. The muslim community has the power to persuade them but it's an uphill battle.

Thank you! Most people just can't think critically, unfortunately!

[Anonymous]

He's saying that they don't have the power to stop terrorists as long as the west gives radicals a cause to rally around.

AKA Blame the victim.