Confronting the rise & allure of Militant Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The District of Columbia alone recorded 108 homicides in 2014 - how many were committed by Christians? Do we need to change the daily practices of Catholics and Protestants respectively?

I'm sure they go to church each Sunday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The District of Columbia alone recorded 108 homicides in 2014 - how many were committed by Christians? Do we need to change the daily practices of Catholics and Protestants respectively?

I'm sure they go to church each Sunday.

This is how the bigotry works. Christians who do bad things are not really Christians. Muslims who do bad things are labeled "devout".

Don't you realize that this is EXACTLY how Muslims feel when they see these terrorist attacks?? They think these are wackos perverting religion to justify their evil.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about abolishing all religions?

And how would we do that?

Not sure. Legislation? Ostracism? The Presbyterians are disappearing.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:
Just like civilians in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 but we killed over 500,000 of them and called it collateral damage.

Why are you changing the subject? Christians, Armenians and Yazidis weren't collateral damage for ISIS and you know that perfectly well. Collateral damage is what happens when you don't mean to kill but do. ISIS targeted Christians, Armenians and Yazidis deliberately. You know that also. Your comparison is entirely unwarranted.

Muslima wrote:
Well, I don't know how any Muslim can just declare the blood and wealth of another human being let alone Shia halal. I am Sunni and would never ever dream than anyone's blood is halal. Anyone can say anything, doesn't make it so. So the fact that it is written in a book somewhere in Saudi Arabia or Arizona doesn't make it so. The Shia-Sunni issue goes beyond the scope of this thread and can't be summarized in a few lines, but your approach is very simplistic! Sunnis and Shias have lived in perfect harmony for years, and still do in many areas of the world today. The original split of Muslims in the first place, that gave birth to Sunnis and Shias was Political not Religious, so to make this just a matter of Religion is misleading!

You wouldn't dream of it? What does it matter what you dream about? "A book written somewhere in Saudi Arabia or Arizona"? Are you deliberately being dense or what? It's not a book written "somewhere". It's an official textbook used by all, yes ALL schoolchildren in public schools of Saudi Arabia, in all schools in the country of the major Sunni power that has successfully sold its version of Islam around the world because it could afford to do so. Oh, and don't forget all Saudi-sponsored Islamic schools around the world. If you have never seen it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Please do name "many" areas of the world today where Sunnis and Shia live in perfect harmony today. Might that be KSA? Where Shias are marginalized and kept from the army, government, diplomatic corps and any position of importance? Might that be Bahrain? Where the peaceful Shia MAJORITY population was sprayed with bullets when they asked for more power? Might that be Pakistan or Afghanistan, where bombs routinely go off in Shia mosques and markets?

Yes, the original split of Muslims was political in the first place. But it has since been very well-metabolized into the Sunni religious discourse. If you're Sunni, you should know it.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Just like civilians in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 but we killed over 500,000 of them and called it collateral damage.

Why are you changing the subject? Christians, Armenians and Yazidis weren't collateral damage for ISIS and you know that perfectly well. Collateral damage is what happens when you don't mean to kill but do. ISIS targeted Christians, Armenians and Yazidis deliberately. You know that also. Your comparison is entirely unwarranted.

Muslima wrote:
Well, I don't know how any Muslim can just declare the blood and wealth of another human being let alone Shia halal. I am Sunni and would never ever dream than anyone's blood is halal. Anyone can say anything, doesn't make it so. So the fact that it is written in a book somewhere in Saudi Arabia or Arizona doesn't make it so. The Shia-Sunni issue goes beyond the scope of this thread and can't be summarized in a few lines, but your approach is very simplistic! Sunnis and Shias have lived in perfect harmony for years, and still do in many areas of the world today. The original split of Muslims in the first place, that gave birth to Sunnis and Shias was Political not Religious, so to make this just a matter of Religion is misleading!

You wouldn't dream of it? What does it matter what you dream about? "A book written somewhere in Saudi Arabia or Arizona"? Are you deliberately being dense or what? It's not a book written "somewhere". It's an official textbook used by all, yes ALL schoolchildren in public schools of Saudi Arabia, in all schools in the country of the major Sunni power that has successfully sold its version of Islam around the world because it could afford to do so. Oh, and don't forget all Saudi-sponsored Islamic schools around the world. If you have never seen it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Please do name "many" areas of the world today where Sunnis and Shia live in perfect harmony today. Might that be KSA? Where Shias are marginalized and kept from the army, government, diplomatic corps and any position of importance? Might that be Bahrain? Where the peaceful Shia MAJORITY population was sprayed with bullets when they asked for more power? Might that be Pakistan or Afghanistan, where bombs routinely go off in Shia mosques and markets?

Yes, the original split of Muslims was political in the first place. But it has since been very well-metabolized into the Sunni religious discourse. If you're Sunni, you should know it.

Look, I am not going to go back and forth with you on the Sunni , Shias and Saudi Arabia's hate for shias. You are the same poster who always brings this into any discussion about Islam or Muslims, you don't get it and will never do, so it is pointless and sterile and I don't like to waste my time. Shias have been mistreated in some majority Sunni countries, the same way Sunnis have been mistreated in majority shia countries, the same way, the US, Europe, Asia has been mistreating their own minorities for decades. It is a human problem! Saudi Arabia teaches wahabism and that is reflected in their textbooks, and some did refer to shias as Mushreeks. Most of the Sunnis believe that Shias are misguided, not Mushreek. My grandfather follows wahabism, his wives dress all in black and in niqab, but that is their choice and they are the most loving people that I know. We do not have hatred in or hearts for shias , just because they are shias, shias and sunnis live in harmony in many places in the world and have done so for centuries . Of course in areas where they fight for political gains, the control of institution, they clash, but the majority of Sunni Muslims don't walk around looking for a shia to kill.

[Anonymous]

This is how the bigotry works. Christians who do bad things are not really Christians. Muslims who do bad things are labeled "devout".

And, are these Christians murdering people in the name of God? Are they going to church every Sunday? Are their ministers encouraging this activity?

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:
Look, I am not going to go back and forth with you on the Sunni , Shias and Saudi Arabia's hate for shias. You are the same poster who always brings this into any discussion about Islam or Muslims, you don't get it and will never do, so it is pointless and sterile and I don't like to waste my time. Shias have been mistreated in some majority Sunni countries, the same way Sunnis have been mistreated in majority shia countries, the same way, the US, Europe, Asia has been mistreating their own minorities for decades. It is a human problem! Saudi Arabia teaches wahabism and that is reflected in their textbooks, and some did refer to shias as Mushreeks. Most of the Sunnis believe that Shias are misguided, not Mushreek. My grandfather follows wahabism, his wives dress all in black and in niqab, but that is their choice and they are the most loving people that I know. We do not have hatred in or hearts for shias , just because they are shias, shias and sunnis live in harmony in many places in the world and have done so for centuries . Of course in areas where they fight for political gains, the control of institution, they clash, but the majority of Sunni Muslims don't walk around looking for a shia to kill.

I love how you first say that I'm not gonna get it, and in the next breath you actually confirm what I say - that most Sunnis consider the Shias "misguided", incomplete Muslims. Do we actually have the confirmation from you, the Sunni Muslim, that the mainstream Sunni discourse looks down on the Shia? Is that the political view or a religious view? Glory be!

There is no such thing as majority Shia countrieS. Before the Iraq invasion, the only country that met this standard was Iran. Iran does mistreat their Sunnis but the religious discourse in Shiaism does not see Sunnis as sub-human.

I am still waiting for you to list places, "many places in the world", where Shias and Sunnis have lived in harmony "for centuries."

Of course the majority of Sunni Muslims don't walk around looking for a Shia to kill. They just don't see Shia as a fitting choice for any position of power, even in Shia-majority but Sunni-ruled countries.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

This is how the bigotry works. Christians who do bad things are not really Christians. Muslims who do bad things are labeled "devout".

And, are these Christians murdering people in the name of God? Are they going to church every Sunday? Are their ministers encouraging this activity?

All of those things are happening in the Central African Republic. But, the killing has been excused by posters here.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is how the bigotry works. Christians who do bad things are not really Christians. Muslims who do bad things are labeled "devout".

And, are these Christians murdering people in the name of God? Are they going to church every Sunday? Are their ministers encouraging this activity?

All of those things are happening in the Central African Republic. But, the killing has been excused by posters here.

Jeff, I admit I'm ignorant. I don't even know where the Central African Republic is, although I assume it's somehow close to the middle of Africa.

But we weren't talking about them, we were talking about homicides in DC, probably by Christians, but not because of Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Promote democracy in any Theocracy or Monarchy. Don't become allied with any Theocracy or Monarchy, especially the ones with human rights violations and the ones who occupy territory not theirs. Stop blaming a religion for terrorism.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is how the bigotry works. Christians who do bad things are not really Christians. Muslims who do bad things are labeled "devout".

And, are these Christians murdering people in the name of God? Are they going to church every Sunday? Are their ministers encouraging this activity?

All of those things are happening in the Central African Republic. But, the killing has been excused by posters here.

That because all they are doing is fighting back in kind in a civil war that was started by Muslims. You are pushing a false narrative.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/08/us-centralafrica-inquiry-idUSKBN0KH2BM20150108

The mostly Christian or animist "anti-balaka" militia took up arms in 2013 in response to months of looting and killing by mostly Muslim Seleka rebels who had toppled President Francois Bozize and seized power in March the same year.

The U.N. Security Council established the commission of inquiry in December 2013.

"Thousands of people died as a result of the conflict. Human rights violations and abuses were committed by all parties. The Seleka coalition and the anti-balaka are also responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity," the inquiry said.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote: I truly believe that what is happening across the Levant is political... I think any solution to this can not ignore the context of this violence: there are political and social causes that allow radical voices to be heard and acted upon, and this has nothing to do with the core values or practices of Muslims as a whole. We need to present a different ideology to the marginalized who fall for the radical rhetoric, and that starts with a conversation, but any attempt to modify the core values of the religion itself will fail.

Thank you Muslima. I only disagree with one thing -- we cannot extricate religion and politics in Iraq. Here in the US, that separation is much more distinct, but not in Iraq. That is my point -- Islam and politics are so intertwined, to say an event is only caused by politics and not religion is not accurate at all.

I agree with you -- "we need to present a different ideology to the marginalized who fall for the radical rhetoric, and that starts with a conversation." Well said. A conversation about what? An ideology about what? The disenfrachised Maslawis didn't commit to nonviolence to seek political gains. They welcomed a violent group of Sunnis who promised power and control. To them it was a win- (political) -win (religious) situation. Religion is absolutely and unquestionably a driver in what occurred on June 10th.

You know, the Iraqi scholar Fanar Haddad stated that more often than not, the intricacies of faith and theology are about as relevant in Iraqi sectarian dynamics as Christianity is in the rhetoric of European far-right groups.It is religion as identity rather than religion as faith that is being mobilized . Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of life, and so it differs from other religions in many ways. However, the relationship between 'Islam' and politics is not as simple as many make it seem.. So, 'Islam cannot mix with politics' is not an accurate statement. Nor is 'political matters cannot be dissociated from Islam' an accurate statement either. A lot of Muslims have created a "do-it yourself Islam" that is used to justify every action against the people that they perceive as oppressors. I quoted Yasir Qadhi yesterday, a Muslim scholar that I profoundly respect, and will repeat what he said again since he is way more eloquent than I am. Talking about these issues and he said every single terrorist, from Bin Laden himself, to the shoe-bomber and under-bomber and Boston bomber and every other bomber in between, ALWAYS mentions the deaths of civilians in Muslims lands as a direct cause of his own terrorist operations. While I continue to oppose these groups who claim to defend Islam (because killing innocent people is not allowed in Islam, and because attacking the superpowers of the West will result in the deaths of even more Muslims around the world), we do need to move the conversation beyond just 'condemning' every violent act from a Muslim radical, and realize that what is at stake is the continuing appeal amongst a segment of Muslims to Islamic violence as a response to Western aggression. Unless and until people of Western countries start asking themselves, 'Is it really worth it to invade other lands on false pretexts, to detain innocents for decades on end, to torture prisoners, to support brutal Apartheid states, to bully minorities by passing draconian laws and demonize their faith, etc.', there's only so much we as Muslims can do to prevent the hot-headed radicals in our midst as well.'
As a Muslim, I denounce such wanton violence and blood being shed in the name of my faith. The question is, as an American (or British, or French...): do you as well denounce the violence that your country have wrought across the globe?What we need in today's world, other than cases of self-defense of course, is to spread a culture of mutual co-existence and multi-faith dialogue and cooperation.

The nerve. When you are pandering to Americans in an attempt to damn Europeans , you talk about how inclusive this society is and how happy you are to live here rather than in racist Europe. And then in the next breath, Americans become "you" when you are trying to justify anything Muslims do.
Guess what? If you are living here, you are as much a beneficiary of the drive for extremely cheap oil at any cost that has motivated Western interference in the Middle East for over a century. You and your family are benefiting from the social capital, economic stability and prosperity that are founded on that resource. In fact, chances are high that your family would never have been let in here absent the ensuing economic need for foreign labor.

And if you think that Middle Eastern leaders were going to share the wealth with you and enable you to stay put wherever it is you hail from had there not been any Western Imperialism, I have a bridge to sell you. There is only one instance in which that might have theoretically happened and that was under the Communist government of Mossadegh in Iran in the 50s'. I say "theoretically" because we know how things end up working out under Communist leadership.

So you are enjoying a nice lifestyle at the cost of "wringing violence throughout the world", and no amount of prayer is going to compensate for that.

[Anonymous]

The question is, as an American (or British, or French...): do you as well denounce the violence that your country have wrought across the globe?What we need in today's world, other than cases of self-defense of course, is to spread a culture of mutual co-existence and multi-faith dialogue and cooperation.

I guess that I assumed Muslima was an American before she wrote this statement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The question is, as an American (or British, or French...): do you as well denounce the violence that your country have wrought across the globe?What we need in today's world, other than cases of self-defense of course, is to spread a culture of mutual co-existence and multi-faith dialogue and cooperation.

I guess that I assumed Muslima was an American before she wrote this statement.

Apparently she's a citizen of the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The question is, as an American (or British, or French...): do you as well denounce the violence that your country have wrought across the globe?What we need in today's world, other than cases of self-defense of course, is to spread a culture of mutual co-existence and multi-faith dialogue and cooperation.

I guess that I assumed Muslima was an American before she wrote this statement.

Apparently she's a citizen of the world.

A true Muslim's loyalty is to the Ummah. Not to whatever country they hold citizenship in.