IEP meetings, do they always suggest autism?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We had our IEP meeting recently; DC will start K next year. We've seen a developmental pediatrician and had a neuro-psych evaluation. We've gotten diagnoses of ADHD, MERLD (prior to the new DSM), and Social Communication Disorder.

I was expecting the question, and the school psychologist did indeed asked if we suspected autism. In short, no, but I realize my kid has challenges and it's hard to imagine a mainstream setting for K especially socially. Do the schools not recognize that kids can have issues other than autism? What questions/accommodations should I be asking for? This is Mont. Co. btw. TIA.

Does MoCo have self contained classrooms other than for ASD for K and up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure how an IEP would differ based on HFA vs. MERLD ADHD and SCD. The challenges seem so related that I have trouble seeing the distinction.

Exactly. They would get Speech, social skills class, Sp Ed support, OT and PT if needed.

Speech, OT, PT, and social skills are driven by "need" rather than diagnosis.

So all the supports are pretty much the same.

I don't agree with this. The TYPES of supports might be the same, but what is provided in each type of support could be quite different for MERLD and HF Autism. For example, on "social skills class" -- an autistic child might need a lot of encouragement to engage in eye contact, be empathetic, understand the parameters of what is "socially acceptable". My MERLD child also needs "social skills class" -- however he doesn't need any of the previously mentioned types of skills development. What he needs is explicit notice and interpretation of body language and verbal tone. When a communicative partner crosses his arms and frowns, my child literally doesn't recognize this as negative signal. In fact, I don't think he notices it at all because, due to his language disorder, he is concentrating so hard on the speakers mouth and making sense of the words expressed, that I don't think he has much energy left over to make sense of other non-verbal language meaning cues.

Another social skills example -- an HFA child may need to learn not to interrupt, and so also my child may need help to learn not to interrupt another speaker. But, my child interrupts not because he can't put himself in the other speakers position (empathy of a certain type) but because he has such difficulty with language that he must interrupt to say what he wants otherwise he will lose it. Instead of a lecture about how "other people don't like to be interrupted so stop it", my child needs some strategies about how to organize and remember what he wants to say while someone else is speaking, as well as explicit descriptions of what conversation cues signify that the other person is finished speaking and it is OK to take a turn. (BTW, an autistic person also might need to learn the latter --rules about when to interrupt or not -- but might not need the former, i.e. ways to organize and hold language expression in short term memory).

I know in giving these examples, I skate a little to close to the idea (or myth) that autistic kids don't have empathy. I know there are those who would frame this differently -- that autistic kids are overwhelmed by their empathy and shut down because of that. Or that other needs (like extreme discomfort with transitions or schedule changes) might drive an autistic person's interruption rather than lack of "empathy". But, I do think that the educational system still frames and deals with autism as lack of empathy and that is why I have framed my examples this way.

So both the autistic and MERLD child might need help with social pragmatics but what exactly that help is may sometimes overlap but will also be quite different in other ways. That's why MERLD parents so often object to the "autism" label and to the notion that "well, if it will get you services, take it".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had our IEP meeting recently; DC will start K next year. We've seen a developmental pediatrician and had a neuro-psych evaluation. We've gotten diagnoses of ADHD, MERLD (prior to the new DSM), and Social Communication Disorder.

I was expecting the question, and the school psychologist did indeed asked if we suspected autism. In short, no, but I realize my kid has challenges and it's hard to imagine a mainstream setting for K especially socially. Do the schools not recognize that kids can have issues other than autism? What questions/accommodations should I be asking for? This is Mont. Co. btw. TIA.

I have been down this road with our child. Multiple evals saying MERLD and a Learning Disorder and not autism. But from preschool on, school social workers and school psychologist pushed an autism educational label. My child is now in middle school, and here is my input:

-- As long as your child lags in language, people will think autism. They've been conditioned to do so.

-- As long as your child lags in language, peer friends and social situations will be difficult. This will immediately reinforce the autism idea from above.

--The degree of receptive difficulty directly relates to difficulty in school. It is SO challenging to try and learn without receptive language.

--Some MERLD children read early or on time; others struggle which makes school even more challenging. Try to jump on the reading early because if he can read, it opens up so many opportunities. Whole language is often best first for MERLD kids because they can have trouble blending the sounds that phonics requires.

--If you can, keep your child mainstreamed. Statistics show that once a child is put in a separate program, they don't rejoin mainstream schooling. The expectations are so different (low) and there's little pushing them to challenge themselves. The Least Restrictive Environment is the one your child legally belongs in. If that means a one on one aide, then that is what the school is legally required to provide. The standard is if the child is learning and progressing, they belong in a mainstream classroom.

--School psychologists often have very little training in autism. Why anybody thinks they are autism experts is beyond me. They maybe have taken one or two classes, and there is zero accountability when they place a label of autism on a child. Depending on the district/state, many don't have even a master's degree.


Good luck. I know it's difficult. But if you believe in the MERLD/ADHD diagnosis, I would be very hesitant to accept an autism educational label or let them segregate your child.

FWIW, as the parent of a MERLD/ADHD child, I would have a very different recommendation on reading. While I agree that early focus on reading is really important, I would disagree with the emphasis on "whole language". While whole language does give our MERLD child context clues that enable meaning and comprehension in the immediate or short term, what I think has been critical for our MERLD child is a heavy emphasis on decoding -- explicit phonetic (or sound/letter) teaching, explicit practice in segmentation and in blending. Once our child had that 5 times a week for 45 minutes to an hour a day, his phonics improved GREATLY. Once the fluency of phonics improved, comprehension also improved -- perhaps because all that energy that had previously been spent on trying to figure out a word by context has now been automated. Fluency in decoding has improved and been automated allowing that energy to now be focused on understanding meaning at the sentence and paragraph level.

I also agree with you about mainstreaming. My MERLD child really needs to be exposed to typical language to continue learning. A non-mainstreamed environment would not be good for him. That said, some pull out time that focuses on his specific needs would be helpful.

[Anonymous]

My kid with Asperger's gets group pragmatic speech classes led by a SLP at school. They all learn the same stuff no matter what the diagnosis. All the kids in his grade go to this class if they have social pragmatic issues whether or not they have a diagnosis. My kid with ASD has normal eye contact, BTW.

The classes have worked well for my DS and his social pragmatics have improved a lot. He has been attending social pragmatic classes since preK at school and is now in 1st. He attends a language immersion school and they also have direct instruction in social pragmatics in the target language which also helps.

You are not going to get different speech/social pragmatics classes specifically tailored to a diagnosis and certainly not in public school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid with Asperger's gets group pragmatic speech classes led by a SLP at school. They all learn the same stuff no matter what the diagnosis. All the kids in his grade go to this class if they have social pragmatic issues whether or not they have a diagnosis. My kid with ASD has normal eye contact, BTW.

The classes have worked well for my DS and his social pragmatics have improved a lot. He has been attending social pragmatic classes since preK at school and is now in 1st. He attends a language immersion school and they also have direct instruction in social pragmatics in the target language which also helps.

You are not going to get different speech/social pragmatics classes specifically tailored to a diagnosis and certainly not in public school.

The fact that all the children go to the same class doesn't prove anything. Even in a group setting, children can be working on different skills.

MERLD children have weak pragmatics for totally different reasons than ASD children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with Asperger's gets group pragmatic speech classes led by a SLP at school. They all learn the same stuff no matter what the diagnosis. All the kids in his grade go to this class if they have social pragmatic issues whether or not they have a diagnosis. My kid with ASD has normal eye contact, BTW.

The classes have worked well for my DS and his social pragmatics have improved a lot. He has been attending social pragmatic classes since preK at school and is now in 1st. He attends a language immersion school and they also have direct instruction in social pragmatics in the target language which also helps.

You are not going to get different speech/social pragmatics classes specifically tailored to a diagnosis and certainly not in public school.

The fact that all the children go to the same class doesn't prove anything. Even in a group setting, children can be working on different skills.

MERLD children have weak pragmatics for totally different reasons than ASD children.

I'm not saying it to prove anything but describing how a pragmatic speech class is run at our school. We are at a DC charter maybe it's different at other schools or counties?

[Anonymous]

^ Also, I know for certain that they all work on the same skills in the group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ Also, I know for certain that they all work on the same skills in the group.

then it's a really lousy group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ Also, I know for certain that they all work on the same skills in the group.

then it's a really lousy group.

Why? It has 7 kids who need to learn to interact with their peers/classmates. DS even has a best friend from the group

We've been very happy with it. Free, no driving, and DS has improved a lot: About as good as it gets for a social skills group...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure how an IEP would differ based on HFA vs. MERLD ADHD and SCD. The challenges seem so related that I have trouble seeing the distinction.

Exactly. They would get Speech, social skills class, Sp Ed support, OT and PT if needed.

Speech, OT, PT, and social skills are driven by "need" rather than diagnosis.

So all the supports are pretty much the same.

I don't agree with this. The TYPES of supports might be the same, but what is provided in each type of support could be quite different for MERLD and HF Autism. For example, on "social skills class" -- an autistic child might need a lot of encouragement to engage in eye contact, be empathetic, understand the parameters of what is "socially acceptable". My MERLD child also needs "social skills class" -- however he doesn't need any of the previously mentioned types of skills development. What he needs is explicit notice and interpretation of body language and verbal tone. When a communicative partner crosses his arms and frowns, my child literally doesn't recognize this as negative signal. In fact, I don't think he notices it at all because, due to his language disorder, he is concentrating so hard on the speakers mouth and making sense of the words expressed, that I don't think he has much energy left over to make sense of other non-verbal language meaning cues.

Another social skills example -- an HFA child may need to learn not to interrupt, and so also my child may need help to learn not to interrupt another speaker. But, my child interrupts not because he can't put himself in the other speakers position (empathy of a certain type) but because he has such difficulty with language that he must interrupt to say what he wants otherwise he will lose it. Instead of a lecture about how "other people don't like to be interrupted so stop it", my child needs some strategies about how to organize and remember what he wants to say while someone else is speaking, as well as explicit descriptions of what conversation cues signify that the other person is finished speaking and it is OK to take a turn. (BTW, an autistic person also might need to learn the latter --rules about when to interrupt or not -- but might not need the former, i.e. ways to organize and hold language expression in short term memory).

I know in giving these examples, I skate a little to close to the idea (or myth) that autistic kids don't have empathy. I know there are those who would frame this differently -- that autistic kids are overwhelmed by their empathy and shut down because of that. Or that other needs (like extreme discomfort with transitions or schedule changes) might drive an autistic person's interruption rather than lack of "empathy". But, I do think that the educational system still frames and deals with autism as lack of empathy and that is why I have framed my examples this way.

So both the autistic and MERLD child might need help with social pragmatics but what exactly that help is may sometimes overlap but will also be quite different in other ways. That's why MERLD parents so often object to the "autism" label and to the notion that "well, if it will get you services, take it".

Bingo.
For many of those with autism or Asperger's, mindblindness, or lack of Theory of Mind creates major barriers to communication and closeness. These barriers often lead to those nearest to the individual feel, whether real or perceived, a lack of empathy from the individual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not in my experience. IME, they do not suggest anything. They respond to parent requests. So the parents need to be on the ball and know what to ask and what services to request.

Yes, they do NOT want to give IEPs so are looking for ways out. Autism is a defnite IEP. Other issues? = more squishy or only a 504. Our DS had an ADHD /anxiety diagnosis for years but found in testing Aspergers - from day one, his IEP read Autism because the APA was folding the Aspergers term into the ASD.

[Anonymous]

There is also the issue that some school districts have autism classrooms, but not non-cat self-contained classroom. An autism code more easily justifies dumping these kids in an autism class rather than having to defend against a private placement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ Also, I know for certain that they all work on the same skills in the group.

then it's a really lousy group.

Why? It has 7 kids who need to learn to interact with their peers/classmates. DS even has a best friend from the group

We've been very happy with it. Free, no driving, and DS has improved a lot: About as good as it gets for a social skills group...

Because they should be working on individual needs, which is what an IEP requires, even in a group setting.

And a MERLD child's language needs are usually quite different than a child with ASD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with Asperger's gets group pragmatic speech classes led by a SLP at school. They all learn the same stuff no matter what the diagnosis. All the kids in his grade go to this class if they have social pragmatic issues whether or not they have a diagnosis. My kid with ASD has normal eye contact, BTW.

The classes have worked well for my DS and his social pragmatics have improved a lot. He has been attending social pragmatic classes since preK at school and is now in 1st. He attends a language immersion school and they also have direct instruction in social pragmatics in the target language which also helps.

You are not going to get different speech/social pragmatics classes specifically tailored to a diagnosis and certainly not in public school.

The fact that all the children go to the same class doesn't prove anything. Even in a group setting, children can be working on different skills.

MERLD children have weak pragmatics for totally different reasons than ASD children.

I'm not saying it to prove anything but describing how a pragmatic speech class is run at our school. We are at a DC charter maybe it's different at other schools or counties?

This was also the case at our public MoCo elementary. Not just for speech, but also for reading intervention. Group classes with all working on one set of skills. Not at all effective for our child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is also the issue that some school districts have autism classrooms, but not non-cat self-contained classroom. An autism code more easily justifies dumping these kids in an autism class rather than having to defend against a private placement.

This. If you agree to an autism code, but then try to refuse an autism placement, to the judge you will look like you are being too picky about services and the school system will be more likely to win it's case. The school system doesn't have to provide what's "best" -- just something that's "appropriate" and provides a reasonable likelihood of some progress.

If you have a MERLD child and refuse an autism placement, to the judge it will look like the school system is providing an "inappropriate" placement.

If you are being pressured to take services that you believe are based on an inappropriate diagnosis, you should always document your objection in writing.