IEP meetings, do they always suggest autism?

[Anonymous]

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/40/2/271/

This study investigated social attention impairments in autism (social orienting, joint attention, and attention to another's distress) and their relations to language ability. Three- to four-year-old children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD; n = 72), 3- to 4-year-old developmentally delayed children (n = 34), and 12- to 46-month-old typically developing children (n = 39), matched on mental age, were compared on measures of social orienting, joint attention, and attention to another's distress. Children with autism performed significantly worse than the comparison groups in all of these domains. Combined impairments in joint attention and social orienting were found to best distinguish young children with ASD from those without ASD. Structural equation modeling indicated that joint attention was the best predictor of concurrent language ability. Social orienting and attention to distress were indirectly related to language through their relations with joint attention. These results help to clarify the nature of social attention impairments in autism, offer clues to developmental mechanisms, and suggest targets for early intervention. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
<<It's not like when you take your kid in for an evaluation, they check off "joint attention" and " ability to read nonverbal cues" as the criteria for diagnosing ASD or ruling it out. >>


Actually, I can't tell you how many doctors have cited this in initial evaluations for dismissing autism in my child and looking for other issues. So actually, it is almost like they have a check list with these two items.

When was this? My child was diagnosed/evaluated within the past 2 yrs and those things never happened. But we saw good doctors: Stixrud, children's, and dr Shapiro as well as a school eval. None of them did anything like you describe and they all came up with ASD/Asperger's.

Also, DS never had issues with joint attention nor did I see issues with nonverbal cues as a baby (pointed and looked just fine, eye contact normal) nevertheless every eval agrees on the ASD/AS diagnosis.

If you want to get an eval, go to a professional with a good reputation instead of reading stuff off the internet and making your own diagnosis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
<<It's not like when you take your kid in for an evaluation, they check off "joint attention" and " ability to read nonverbal cues" as the criteria for diagnosing ASD or ruling it out. >>


Actually, I can't tell you how many doctors have cited this in initial evaluations for dismissing autism in my child and looking for other issues. So actually, it is almost like they have a check list with these two items.

When was this? My child was diagnosed/evaluated within the past 2 yrs and those things never happened. But we saw good doctors: Stixrud, children's, and dr Shapiro as well as a school eval. None of them did anything like you describe and they all came up with ASD/Asperger's.

Also, DS never had issues with joint attention nor did I see issues with nonverbal cues as a baby (pointed and looked just fine, eye contact normal) nevertheless every eval agrees on the ASD/AS diagnosis.

If you want to get an eval, go to a professional with a good reputation instead of reading stuff off the internet and making your own diagnosis.

and yet, you do this all the time with your Asperger's wonder child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
<<It's not like when you take your kid in for an evaluation, they check off "joint attention" and " ability to read nonverbal cues" as the criteria for diagnosing ASD or ruling it out. >>


Actually, I can't tell you how many doctors have cited this in initial evaluations for dismissing autism in my child and looking for other issues. So actually, it is almost like they have a check list with these two items.

When was this? My child was diagnosed/evaluated within the past 2 yrs and those things never happened. But we saw good doctors: Stixrud, children's, and dr Shapiro as well as a school eval. None of them did anything like you describe and they all came up with ASD/Asperger's.

Also, DS never had issues with joint attention nor did I see issues with nonverbal cues as a baby (pointed and looked just fine, eye contact normal) nevertheless every eval agrees on the ASD/AS diagnosis.

If you want to get an eval, go to a professional with a good reputation instead of reading stuff off the internet and making your own diagnosis.

and yet, you do this all the time with your Asperger's wonder child.

No, I don't have to since his doctors and school agree on what's needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was told at one one point in the process that the label does not drive services, the evaluated need for services drives services. So if your child's testing shows he needs speech or OT services, my understanding is that is what the child gets -- its not about the classification. If your child has diagnosed adhd and needs services, he should get an OHI code

Yes and no, if you have the diagnosis, it is easier to get services most commonly associated with that diagnosis.

Special education teacher here. The eligibility and the services may be the same, but they do not have to be and in some cases cannot--as in, there are no "OHI" services. The type of services a student receives should be driven by the goals and objectives in the IEP. If there are primarily academic and task-related goals the services might best be labeled as LD. If the IEP contains goals that are all related to self-control, appropriate behavior, and coping skills, those services would likely be labeled as ED. The type of services should match the needs, not the eligibility label. In Fairfax County there are "Non-categorical Elementary (NCE)" services, which apply to kids who have goals across many areas of need--academic, social, emotional, behavioral, etc. They are typically used for kids who have more complex IEPs and learning profiles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
<<It's not like when you take your kid in for an evaluation, they check off "joint attention" and " ability to read nonverbal cues" as the criteria for diagnosing ASD or ruling it out. >>


Actually, I can't tell you how many doctors have cited this in initial evaluations for dismissing autism in my child and looking for other issues. So actually, it is almost like they have a check list with these two items.

When was this? My child was diagnosed/evaluated within the past 2 yrs and those things never happened. But we saw good doctors: Stixrud, children's, and dr Shapiro as well as a school eval. None of them did anything like you describe and they all came up with ASD/Asperger's.

Also, DS never had issues with joint attention nor did I see issues with nonverbal cues as a baby (pointed and looked just fine, eye contact normal) nevertheless every eval agrees on the ASD/AS diagnosis.

If you want to get an eval, go to a professional with a good reputation instead of reading stuff off the internet and making your own diagnosis.

and yet, you do this all the time with your Asperger's wonder child.

No, I don't have to since his doctors and school agree on what's needed.

No, I mean you are quick to say that because your child has joint attention, autistic children don't have issues with joint attention. Not remotely true.

I know lots of families who have HFA/Asperger's and not one sounds like yours. And yet you try over and over again to force this idea that your child is the standard for Asperger's. Oh, and the "If you've met one child with autism, you met one child with autism" is hooey. They are much more alike than different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Hmm. Interesting. My earlier post disappeared.

Scientific research has found that joint attention skills and the ability to read nonverbal cues separate non ASD from ASD.

You keep posting this. Do you have a kid who was diagnosed with ASD? I'm guessing not since if you did, you would know it's more subtle than that.

It's not like when you take your kid in for an evaluation, they check off "joint attention" and " ability to read nonverbal cues" as the criteria for diagnosing ASD or ruling it out.

I have a kid with ASD/Asperger's and he never had issues with joint attention and his ability to read nonverbal cues have improved greatly to the point that it's not much of an issue at this point. So according to your criteria, he is "cured" which he certainly is not.

I've read the research as I have a child with MERLD. At at young ages, it's the joint attention and nonverbal cues that are the major indicators that differentiate ASD from non ASD.

You are doing everyone a disservice by making it sound like this is the criteria that is used for evaluating ASD or ruling it out b/c it is much more than that.

Also, many kids who are on the spectrum have joint attention and the ability to read nonverbal cues - but they are not as good at it as NT kids. A complete lack of joint attention and a complete inability to read nonverbal cues is true for the most severely affected kids with ASD.

And again.

[Anonymous]

If I was OP, I would do the following (and not listen to the PP's arguing over how to diagnose your child):

1) Listen to what your outside professionals that did your child's evaluation. Push for what they recommended and be cautious if the school is recommending a course of action that your private evaluation did not.

2) Listen to the school's concerns and have them document in writing their concerns. Why they are recommending a particular placement? Can you observe the placement? Why are they pushing for a coding that was not identified prior? Is there enough documentation to support their proposed actions? Can you differ the decision so you can carefully review what they are proposing? If not, ask for a 60 day Periodic IEP Review to be put on the calendar to check your child's progress after program begins.

3) Take the written documentation to your outside professional. In my case, I always start with the pediatrician because for my child's needs she has always been captain. You could also call up the neuropsychologist who did the evaluation and discuss over the phone what the school is recommending and their opinion if such placement is appropriate. Point being, perhaps the school team has new information and concerns now that your child is older and entering Kindergarten. Perhaps more testing is needed now that your child is older and it is apparent that benchmarks are not being achieved. Perhaps the school just wants to place your child in a program that is convenient for them. Rely on outside professionals to guide you in this type of decision.

4) Have someone with either a legal background or an educational background (preferably in Special Education) with you at the meeting to translate the teacher speak and protect your child's rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
<<It's not like when you take your kid in for an evaluation, they check off "joint attention" and " ability to read nonverbal cues" as the criteria for diagnosing ASD or ruling it out. >>


Actually, I can't tell you how many doctors have cited this in initial evaluations for dismissing autism in my child and looking for other issues. So actually, it is almost like they have a check list with these two items.

Right. And of course, that ties into all the studies posted here, which says those skills are key.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
<<It's not like when you take your kid in for an evaluation, they check off "joint attention" and " ability to read nonverbal cues" as the criteria for diagnosing ASD or ruling it out. >>


Actually, I can't tell you how many doctors have cited this in initial evaluations for dismissing autism in my child and looking for other issues. So actually, it is almost like they have a check list with these two items.

When was this? My child was diagnosed/evaluated within the past 2 yrs and those things never happened. But we saw good doctors: Stixrud, children's, and dr Shapiro as well as a school eval. None of them did anything like you describe and they all came up with ASD/Asperger's.

Also, DS never had issues with joint attention nor did I see issues with nonverbal cues as a baby (pointed and looked just fine, eye contact normal) nevertheless every eval agrees on the ASD/AS diagnosis.

If you want to get an eval, go to a professional with a good reputation instead of reading stuff off the internet and making your own diagnosis.

and yet, you do this all the time with your Asperger's wonder child.

No, I don't have to since his doctors and school agree on what's needed.

No, I mean you are quick to say that because your child has joint attention, autistic children don't have issues with joint attention. Not remotely true.

I know lots of families who have HFA/Asperger's and not one sounds like yours. And yet you try over and over again to force this idea that your child is the standard for Asperger's. Oh, and the "If you've met one child with autism, you met one child with autism" is hooey. They are much more alike than different.

For someone who "know lots of families who have HFA/Asperger's" and not have a child with ASD yourself, you are certainly quick to generalize on what they "should" be like.

DS's neuropsychologist at Children's always like to remind me how "If you've met one child with autism, you met one child with autism" BUT she has a child with Asperger's and according to her, her son and my son are nothing alike except for the diagnosis. So the experts don't think it's "hooey" like you.

For someone who does not have a child on the spectrum, you are certainly vested in how a child with ASD should present...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We had our IEP meeting recently; DC will start K next year. We've seen a developmental pediatrician and had a neuro-psych evaluation. We've gotten diagnoses of ADHD, MERLD (prior to the new DSM), and Social Communication Disorder.

I was expecting the question, and the school psychologist did indeed asked if we suspected autism. In short, no, but I realize my kid has challenges and it's hard to imagine a mainstream setting for K especially socially. Do the schools not recognize that kids can have issues other than autism? What questions/accommodations should I be asking for? This is Mont. Co. btw. TIA.

I have been down this road with our child. Multiple evals saying MERLD and a Learning Disorder and not autism. But from preschool on, school social workers and school psychologist pushed an autism educational label. My child is now in middle school, and here is my input:

-- As long as your child lags in language, people will think autism. They've been conditioned to do so.

-- As long as your child lags in language, peer friends and social situations will be difficult. This will immediately reinforce the autism idea from above.

--The degree of receptive difficulty directly relates to difficulty in school. It is SO challenging to try and learn without receptive language.

--Some MERLD children read early or on time; others struggle which makes school even more challenging. Try to jump on the reading early because if he can read, it opens up so many opportunities. Whole language is often best first for MERLD kids because they can have trouble blending the sounds that phonics requires.

--If you can, keep your child mainstreamed. Statistics show that once a child is put in a separate program, they don't rejoin mainstream schooling. The expectations are so different (low) and there's little pushing them to challenge themselves. The Least Restrictive Environment is the one your child legally belongs in. If that means a one on one aide, then that is what the school is legally required to provide. The standard is if the child is learning and progressing, they belong in a mainstream classroom.

--School psychologists often have very little training in autism. Why anybody thinks they are autism experts is beyond me. They maybe have taken one or two classes, and there is zero accountability when they place a label of autism on a child. Depending on the district/state, many don't have even a master's degree.


Good luck. I know it's difficult. But if you believe in the MERLD/ADHD diagnosis, I would be very hesitant to accept an autism educational label or let them segregate your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had our IEP meeting recently; DC will start K next year. We've seen a developmental pediatrician and had a neuro-psych evaluation. We've gotten diagnoses of ADHD, MERLD (prior to the new DSM), and Social Communication Disorder.

I was expecting the question, and the school psychologist did indeed asked if we suspected autism. In short, no, but I realize my kid has challenges and it's hard to imagine a mainstream setting for K especially socially. Do the schools not recognize that kids can have issues other than autism? What questions/accommodations should I be asking for? This is Mont. Co. btw. TIA.

I have been down this road with our child. Multiple evals saying MERLD and a Learning Disorder and not autism. But from preschool on, school social workers and school psychologist pushed an autism educational label. My child is now in middle school, and here is my input:

-- As long as your child lags in language, people will think autism. They've been conditioned to do so.

-- As long as your child lags in language, peer friends and social situations will be difficult. This will immediately reinforce the autism idea from above.

--The degree of receptive difficulty directly relates to difficulty in school. It is SO challenging to try and learn without receptive language.

--Some MERLD children read early or on time; others struggle which makes school even more challenging. Try to jump on the reading early because if he can read, it opens up so many opportunities. Whole language is often best first for MERLD kids because they can have trouble blending the sounds that phonics requires.

--If you can, keep your child mainstreamed. Statistics show that once a child is put in a separate program, they don't rejoin mainstream schooling. The expectations are so different (low) and there's little pushing them to challenge themselves. The Least Restrictive Environment is the one your child legally belongs in. If that means a one on one aide, then that is what the school is legally required to provide. The standard is if the child is learning and progressing, they belong in a mainstream classroom.

--School psychologists often have very little training in autism. Why anybody thinks they are autism experts is beyond me. They maybe have taken one or two classes, and there is zero accountability when they place a label of autism on a child. Depending on the district/state, many don't have even a master's degree.


Good luck. I know it's difficult. But if you believe in the MERLD/ADHD diagnosis, I would be very hesitant to accept an autism educational label or let them segregate your child.

Show me those statistics, please. My children both started in self-contained classrooms and both are mainstreamed now. In fact, most verbal children I know were eventually mainstreamed.

[Anonymous]

On the progress of children in separate programs vs. inclusion

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00131910125044#.Uxo5KPldUk4

Abstract
Large-scale longitudinal data on differences in pupils' cognitive and psychosocial development in various types of special and mainstream ('regular') schools are reported in this article. The study focuses on comparing the development of matched pairs of primary-aged pupils in mainstream and special education over periods of 2 and 4 years. After 2 years, pupils made more progress in mathematics in mainstream education than in schools for children with learning and behavioural difficulties [LBD] and school motivation developed more favourably in schools for pupils with mild mental retardation [MMR]. After 4 years, pupils in regular education had made more progress in academic performance than their matched pairs in special education. Development is analysed with respect to the use of internal differentiation in the classroom and special provision for pupils with LBD/MMR. The hypothesis that the degree of specialist care being offered helps these pupils could not be confirmed. In the qualitative part of the research, processes at the level of the pupil, the school and the family are studied in order to look for explanations for divergent developments in academic performance and psychosocial functioning. These processes seem to be associated with unique patterns of pupil characteristics, school characteristics and family circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If you have a child with MERLD, schools will always push autism in my experience. I literally know of dozens of cases across the country where this is so (I belong to several MERLD groups.) Schools do this because they don't understand MERLD, and they've dumped all their money into the autism programs, so it's easiest to mislabel a child and shove them in their autism program as opposed to creating an actual INDIVIDUAL education plan.

MERLD parent, I totally agree with this, not just with reference to autism programs. Schools, in general, have a limited number of "programs" (whether it's for autism, reading disorder, behavioral problems, etc.) If you fit the criteria for the program, they will give it to you. If you don't fit the criteria, they will either deny you have a problem (if they can, by saying that your child is "average" or "on level" or "within the developmental norms") OR they will try and smush you into the closest program that seems to fit (i.e. MERLD child has social communication problems Autistic kids also have social communication problems, put MERLD child in autism classroom because -- they justify -- services are needed/same regardless of label given)

IME, most special education teachers are not that knowledgeable about different diagnoses and thus not really capable of making the individual analysis required for the IEP. Similarly, many of the school psychologists may be able to diagnose different disorders, but are really not that knowledgeable about how to address the disorder with different educational strategies. Two people sit at the table, who understand two side of a coin, but they are not able to put their knowledge together to come up with an effective plan. IME.

[Anonymous]

<<MERLD parent, I totally agree with this, not just with reference to autism programs. Schools, in general, have a limited number of "programs" (whether it's for autism, reading disorder, behavioral problems, etc.) If you fit the criteria for the program, they will give it to you. If you don't fit the criteria, they will either deny you have a problem (if they can, by saying that your child is "average" or "on level" or "within the developmental norms" OR they will try and smush you into the closest program that seems to fit (i.e. MERLD child has social communication problems Autistic kids also have social communication problems, put MERLD child in autism classroom because -- they justify -- services are needed/same regardless of label given)

IME, most special education teachers are not that knowledgeable about different diagnoses and thus not really capable of making the individual analysis required for the IEP. Similarly, many of the school psychologists may be able to diagnose different disorders, but are really not that knowledgeable about how to address the disorder with different educational strategies. Two people sit at the table, who understand two side of a coin, but they are not able to put their knowledge together to come up with an effective plan. IME. >>


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