The education miracle in Finland

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Swede here. It is crazy and reflective of the myth that europe is race blind, but swedes consider themselves to be virtually a different race than finns.

The Finns are different.

[Anonymous]

I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:47 - G&T programs aren't about "coddling" students - in fact, it's about accelerating them and challenging them with harder material.

But if you are so opposed to "coddling" students, then consider this: Isn't it "coddling" the less-proficient students to have them coast along, be assigned student tutors, and so on - when their peers are having to work harder than they do?

How is the less proficient student working less hard? If two students, one that excels in math and the other that doesn't, are given the same worksheet, student A breezes through it without much effort and the student B spends more time and has more difficulty with the sheet, did student A work harder than student B? Are they coasting along? Now student A explains the problem to student B, student B re works the problem, student A cemented the knowledge in his brain.

I always signed up for tutoring students or working as a TA in med school. You know why? Teaching the concepts I learned to other students always cemented the knowledge into my brain.

Oh, for crying out loud. Snap out of the land of rosy-colored glasses already. This is not med school. This is DCPS. DCPS does social promotion. You get a passing grade even if you don't do the worksheet at all. You get a passing grade just for showing up. There is no such thing as failure, unless you really try at failing. There are no consequences and zero accountability. Passing and graduation can be taken for granted. Given all that, there's no need for many of these students to even try. So, yes, absolutely they are coasting along. That is a situation that does not exist in Finland or most other parts of the world - and certainly not in med school.

+1. And, as someone who works in brain science, let me suggest to previous PP he learns a bit more about neuroplasticity and cognition before becoming self-deluded by empty statements such as "X cemented the knowledge in his brain."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

We now have entire generations that have grown up without being under policies of segregation and Jim Crow laws. The policy issues are gone. Now what remain are the cultural issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

We now have entire generations that have grown up without being under policies of segregation and Jim Crow laws. The policy issues are gone. Now what remain are the cultural issues.

Well now this is the problem. To many people assume time passing changes the effects without outside forces of some kind intervening. If you like to state it differently, the "culture" developed under Jim Crow and Slavery is what we are dealing with.

To the other poster comparing blacks affected by Jim Crow to immigrants - That is mixing situations. A key effect of the racist past in America is that many blacks learned that the normal relationship between working hard and benefiting did not apply to them. Most immigrants come to the US expecting that here they will find a relationship between hard work and positive benefits. If I come here as a refugee suffering brutality and death of relatives I have come from a situation harder than some poor blacks (ignoring the violence in many inner city communities). However, that hard situation doesn't strip my cultural expectations. Which I believe is the case for many poorer blacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

We now have entire generations that have grown up without being under policies of segregation and Jim Crow laws. The policy issues are gone. Now what remain are the cultural issues.

Well now this is the problem. To many people assume time passing changes the effects without outside forces of some kind intervening. If you like to state it differently, the "culture" developed under Jim Crow and Slavery is what we are dealing with.

To the other poster comparing blacks affected by Jim Crow to immigrants - That is mixing situations. A key effect of the racist past in America is that many blacks learned that the normal relationship between working hard and benefiting did not apply to them. Most immigrants come to the US expecting that here they will find a relationship between hard work and positive benefits. If I come here as a refugee suffering brutality and death of relatives I have come from a situation harder than some poor blacks (ignoring the violence in many inner city communities). However, that hard situation doesn't strip my cultural expectations. Which I believe is the case for many poorer blacks.

Well said. It baffles me that people do not understand how completely devastating former policies and practices have been toward blacks AND how the effects continue today. The prison system has profited tremendously off of black men - who were pushed into the system by policies to put them there. Then, the cycle begins. Yes, researchers agree.

Since some of you want proof, read "Amazing Grace" by Johnathan Kozol. He does a good job in this book and his others of citing specific strategies taken by those in power to specifically change the BEHAVIOR and psych of black America.

[Anonymous]

To the other poster comparing blacks affected by Jim Crow to immigrants - That is mixing situations. A key effect of the racist past in America is that many blacks learned that the normal relationship between working hard and benefiting did not apply to them. Most immigrants come to the US expecting that here they will find a relationship between hard work and positive benefits. If I come here as a refugee suffering brutality and death of relatives I have come from a situation harder than some poor blacks (ignoring the violence in many inner city communities). However, that hard situation doesn't strip my cultural expectations. Which I believe is the case for many poorer blacks.

This bears repeating. The expectations of all parties involved--student, parent, teacher, administrator, community--are all essential. If one or two hold low expectations it's hard enoug, but if all are struggling under no hope, then there really is no hope. Complete failure. And as I recall, that was the state of DCPS in most (not all) of the city back in the 80s and 90s. That's the DCPS that produced many of the uninvolved parents of today's DCPS. One hell of a vicious cycle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:47 - G&T programs aren't about "coddling" students - in fact, it's about accelerating them and challenging them with harder material.

But if you are so opposed to "coddling" students, then consider this: Isn't it "coddling" the less-proficient students to have them coast along, be assigned student tutors, and so on - when their peers are having to work harder than they do?

How is the less proficient student working less hard? If two students, one that excels in math and the other that doesn't, are given the same worksheet, student A breezes through it without much effort and the student B spends more time and has more difficulty with the sheet, did student A work harder than student B? Are they coasting along? Now student A explains the problem to student B, student B re works the problem, student A cemented the knowledge in his brain.

I always signed up for tutoring students or working as a TA in med school. You know why? Teaching the concepts I learned to other students always cemented the knowledge into my brain.

Oh, for crying out loud. Snap out of the land of rosy-colored glasses already. This is not med school. This is DCPS. DCPS does social promotion. You get a passing grade even if you don't do the worksheet at all. You get a passing grade just for showing up. There is no such thing as failure, unless you really try at failing. There are no consequences and zero accountability. Passing and graduation can be taken for granted. Given all that, there's no need for many of these students to even try. So, yes, absolutely they are coasting along. That is a situation that does not exist in Finland or most other parts of the world - and certainly not in med school.

+1. And, as someone who works in brain science, let me suggest to previous PP he learns a bit more about neuroplasticity and cognition before becoming self-deluded by empty statements such as "X cemented the knowledge in his brain."

Truth!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

Many immigrants do not do better, those that leave and risk a lot to come here often do, there is a difference. Second generation and third generation youth of immigrants do not fare as well because they do not have the same reason for leaving. Newly arrived immigrants know that their parents risked a lot to bring them to the USA and value education, after they've been in the US a while the affect has worn off!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

We now have entire generations that have grown up without being under policies of segregation and Jim Crow laws. The policy issues are gone. Now what remain are the cultural issues.

Well now this is the problem. To many people assume time passing changes the effects without outside forces of some kind intervening. If you like to state it differently, the "culture" developed under Jim Crow and Slavery is what we are dealing with.

To the other poster comparing blacks affected by Jim Crow to immigrants - That is mixing situations. A key effect of the racist past in America is that many blacks learned that the normal relationship between working hard and benefiting did not apply to them. Most immigrants come to the US expecting that here they will find a relationship between hard work and positive benefits. If I come here as a refugee suffering brutality and death of relatives I have come from a situation harder than some poor blacks (ignoring the violence in many inner city communities). However, that hard situation doesn't strip my cultural expectations. Which I believe is the case for many poorer blacks.

What you don't get is that there are racist and horrible pasts everywhere. Not only that, but there are racist and horrible realities today, most of them outside the US. Yet, people everywhere seem able to improve generation after generation...except, for some reason, AAs? What you offer as reasoned explanation sounds extremely demeaning to me. You seem to be saying that AAs are incapable of improving their own lives today, still slaved by the memories of their masters over 150 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

Many immigrants do not do better, those that leave and risk a lot to come here often do, there is a difference. Second generation and third generation youth of immigrants do not fare as well because they do not have the same reason for leaving. Newly arrived immigrants know that their parents risked a lot to bring them to the USA and value education, after they've been in the US a while the affect has worn off!!!

I am sorry if your culture values talking and talking while ignoring all available data, but may I ask, what research can you cite that supports that "Second generation and third generation youth of immigrants do not fare as well"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

We now have entire generations that have grown up without being under policies of segregation and Jim Crow laws. The policy issues are gone. Now what remain are the cultural issues.

Well now this is the problem. To many people assume time passing changes the effects without outside forces of some kind intervening. If you like to state it differently, the "culture" developed under Jim Crow and Slavery is what we are dealing with.

To the other poster comparing blacks affected by Jim Crow to immigrants - That is mixing situations. A key effect of the racist past in America is that many blacks learned that the normal relationship between working hard and benefiting did not apply to them. Most immigrants come to the US expecting that here they will find a relationship between hard work and positive benefits. If I come here as a refugee suffering brutality and death of relatives I have come from a situation harder than some poor blacks (ignoring the violence in many inner city communities). However, that hard situation doesn't strip my cultural expectations. Which I believe is the case for many poorer blacks.

There's no real reason for that belief or culture to continue in this day and age. It's self-imposed victimhood at this point. You'll find for example that African-Americans have a totally different worldview and set of perspectives regarding what they perceive to be racism and discrimination than African immigrants who see things totally differently. Everything is viewed through a different filter with a whole set of self-generated assumptions layered atop it. The African immigrant does not feel or experience any of that and as such is not as self-limiting in his pursuits and endeavors. That relationship between hard work, ambition and education does indeed yield positive benefits - and these are far more viable and pragmatic than the mistaken ideas some have about shortcuts to success - of being the next great athlete or next great rapper - when there's a better chance of getting struck by lightning than finding success either of these ways. Or - worse yet, the ideas about shortcuts to success involve crime, which have a far better chance of shortening your life, leaving you crippled or behind bars.

You are right in that a lot of this cultural belief is deeply ingrained, going back generations - and needs to be un-learned. It's time to move on. Yes, there are still racist scumbags here and there, but as a whole, the American system, and American society has put it to bed and no longer tolerates those racist scumbags. It's time to move on.

[Anonymous]

Yet, people everywhere seem able to improve generation after generation...except, for some reason, AAs?

...and Latinos from Mexico and central America.

American Indians not doing so hot, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll add a reminder of what slavery and recent discrimination laws did to the education system.

My mom, an AA teacher, went to a segregated HIGH school where she had to use outdated books from the white MIDDLE school. She was not prepared in the least for college, started behind and had to work very hard to catch up (which she regrets she wasn't able to do).

All of my 6 aunts were also teachers (the only professional career for most AAs at the time).

They all talk about how terrible their education was, but at least they had a chance (even though they were behind).

However, there were plenty of folks caught up in the Jim Crow laws and other horrible policies to ensure AAs were not able to get a good education. This was fairly recent folks.

The children today are descendants of many of these folks.
Yes... poverty, a culture of "getting by," consumerism, etc. all came from a time when politicians worked hard to prevent AAs from getting a good educations.

Let's face it, the policies put in place to correct the effects of this have not worked.

Finland and other countries are not dealing with these deep rooted psychological issues.

In DC in particular, you have lots of social problems that were engineered as such. They need to be addressed before we're able to move forward.

Unless you can point to studies that show educational attainment to be largely genetic, most of this is bull. As evidenced by the fact that many immigrants come from much worse circumstances yet they make significant progress in one or two generations.

Many immigrants do not do better, those that leave and risk a lot to come here often do, there is a difference. Second generation and third generation youth of immigrants do not fare as well because they do not have the same reason for leaving. Newly arrived immigrants know that their parents risked a lot to bring them to the USA and value education, after they've been in the US a while the affect has worn off!!!

I am sorry if your culture values talking and talking while ignoring all available data, but may I ask, what research can you cite that supports that "Second generation and third generation youth of immigrants do not fare as well"?

What data do you have to say they are all doing so amazingly well!!! My point was that you can't use the argument that the PP made about immigrants and AAs. For the record I'm a second generation immigrant myself, believe me there is data, immigrant students born into the USA are equally affected by issues of race, poverty, class as everyone else.