DH is not impressed with college admissions from the private schools

[Anonymous]

By the way, 12:03/12:41, our exchange will be a lot more productive if you'd quit disrespecting and insulting me. I know you disagree with me. It does not improve your credibility when you repeatedly say I have "no clue" or "know nothing" or am "naive." Instead of wasting words with snarky comments, focus on proving your points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1. Whenever you refer to Whitman parents, or people making $200k, as "middle class," I cringe.

2. I think you're way overstating the income difference between those top Whitman students from Bethesda and the private school students. There are obviously some extremely wealthy people in private schools (just as there are in the public schools), but I also know plenty of two-govt-worker families in private, and others who receive financial aid. I also know plenty of law firm partners, doctors, and business executives with kids at Whitman and other private schools. There's no shortage of wealthy families there.

3. If your claim about many high-achieving public school students getting money from 2nd-tier private colleges is true, then are you positing we'd %wise see loads more Whitman grads than private school grads at such colleges? In other word, the private high schools clearly have a much bigger % attending Ivy colleges. But you think Whitman will have a much bigger % attending 2nd tier private colleges, because all those super-high-achieving Whitman students opted to turn down the Ivy colleges in favor of OOS money?

4. How does your money theory explain the disparity in NMSF and SAT scores? I assume the Whitman students try just as hard on the SAT, no matter whether or not they can afford Ivy colleges, don't they? I find it especially interesting that the NMSF % lines up closely with the Ivy % at so many of these schools.

Enjoy life in your bubble. No, $200k is not middle class. But it's definitely more representative of Whitman families than the wealthier private school families. I don't see how anybody could possibly argue otherwise. Nor do you have any HHI data to back up your wishful thinking. This data may not exist, but that doesn't mean you can simply assert that all of the top 25% kids at Whitman are just as rich as private school families. $200k will certainly pay for a $900k house in the Whitman district, and undoubtedly many of these families prioritize a good public school education, but there is not going to be much left over for private school or an Ivy. Fact. This would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

[Anonymous]

DH isn't necessarily a narcissist. If kids are little and DH loved his college experience, it's just a case of DH wanting his kids to have something he liked when he was a kid. As the kids grow up, the ways in which they do/don't share his preferences, personality, etc. will become more apparent and what he wants for them should change. If it doesn't (and if it's pretty obvious that the kid(s) don't want Ivies), then narcissism becomes a more reasonable characterization. But at this stage (sounds like OP's family is making their initial decision about school), it's unfair.

That said, I agree with the "don't choose a private hoping to maximize your DCs' chances of admissions to particular colleges" advice. Choose a private if you think that it'll provide your kid(s) with a better education than your other alternatives.

So basically your argument has to be school-specific and based on what goes on in the classroom. It's not a public vs. private decision -- it's Whitman vs. Maret or Janney vs. GDS, or TJ vs. Sidwell. And your preference may vary as your child(ren) move from elementary to middle to high school.

[Anonymous]

You lost me at family with a HHI of $200k can afford a house in the Whitman district. Can you add ROckville HS to your comparison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:By the way, 12:03/12:41, our exchange will be a lot more productive if you'd quit disrespecting and insulting me. I know you disagree with me. It does not improve your credibility when you repeatedly say I have "no clue" or "know nothing" or am "naive." Instead of wasting words with snarky comments, focus on proving your points.

I'm holding back. I was going to say something like, "yes, yes, dearie, I'm sure if you lined the kids at STA and Whitman up by GPA, and then compared family tax returns one-for-one, you'd find an exact correspondence in family financial situations." And then I was going to suggest you shouldn't worry your pretty little head about this stuff, and instead go drop $250 on your highlights at the salon.

We've been in the position of choosing between a Bethesda house and Whitman/BCC vs. Eastern MoCo and private. You clearly haven't. If we had gone for the Bethesda house, we wouldn't be able to pay for DCs Ivy now. Absolute truth.

[Anonymous]

This is such a straw man conversation. There is not a single private school that would say you should go there because it will increase DC's chances of getting into an Ivy. There's a good chance that you'll turn off the admissions officer if you say that is the reason why you're applying your 4 year old. As others have pointed out, you should send you child to a DC if it is the best choice for them at this point in time.

Regardless of public or private, none of the Ivies are looking to admit kids who are not at the top of their schools. And no matter what, half of Sidwell and StA's students are going to be in the bottom and will stand no chance of getting into an Ivy without a building named after their family. They're the ones who might be at a college admission advantage compared to publics. But, were talking about Hamilton and UConn.

And, no the Ivies aren't really that much more exclusive than in the 80s. Yes there are a lot more applications and the admit rate is lower. But this is driven mostly by the common application and how much easier it is for a non-serious applicant to apply. If DC has a high GPA after taking the hardest courses at their high school (whether public or private), 95th percentile SAT scores and something that sets you apart from the crowd, you're in the pool and the chances that you'll get into one of the Ivies is pretty good.

Further, no middle class parent should tell their child not to apply to an Ivy because of the sticker price. Everyone who makes under the national median income (about $60k) will get all grants, no loans and no family contribution. The average net cost at Harvard is $18K, not the $51k sticker price. The Ivies have big endowments and they can afford to spend a lot more on financial aid than other schools. While a family making $200K will not get much aid, they have had 18 years to build up some savings and they have the resources to consider taking some parental debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:12:03, let me try to clarify our competing viewpoints, so we can at least make sure we're not talking past one another.

I think: Students from strong private high schools in this area have objectively more academic success than students from even strong public schools. I think a good part of that disparity results from strong students choosing private high schools over public high schools, but also that there may be other factors at play.

You think: If we could control for family income, students from strong private high schools have absolutely no more academic success than their public school counterparts.



Is that accurate? If I'm misunderstanding your position, then what exactly is your position?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the point that Whitman parents are on the exact same playing field financially as private school parents when it comes to being full-pay at an Ivy League school, or that FA can eliminate all problems. Since we lack SES data, and short of suggesting you enroll your kids at Whitman, I don't know how to convince you of the disparities that seem obvious to me.

To me, your suggestions that middle class families get FA (hello, HHI < 50k ) or grants at Harvard indicate that you're not serious about financial realities faced by the vast majority of families. You seem determined to ignore the vast mass of people below the upper tail of the income distribution, that end of the tail that lies above the $350k earned by most private school families. Sorry, but that's how you come across.

I do still want to disagree vehemently with your suggestion that "the strong students choose private schools." For so many reasons. Like not every smart kid can afford private school or qualify for FA. And there are plenty of strong kids at Whitman (or Northwood or WJ or wherever) and plenty of middling lifers at even the top K-12s. But that's just for the record, because I've given up trying to convince you that, for the vast middle class in this area, family finances actually play a huge role in decisions about private schools and colleges.

My last question: are you a school AD? Because I can't believe that anybody without a really serious investment in this question would be making the arguments you're making.

Good bye

[Anonymous]

I don't believe you went to an Ivy OP. No one I know calls them "Ivy Schools" as you did. They're Ivy universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We just toured several private schools with $30,000 tuitions and DH is unwilling to pay for it. He is unimpressed with the college admissions at the private schools. DH and I both attended ivy league schools from public schools. Both our high schools in New England had many more ivy league acceptances than the privates we recently toured.

"you are a troll, making up a story about 'DH' hating on privates so that you can get a long discussion war. This has been done 242 times before. As you well know."

Why would I make up this story? I have better things to do.

I was hoping for some ammunition to help me convince DH to go the private school route.

OP, sorry not going to happen on this forum: private=bad, public=good, and that is that! Done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OK, 17:52 from page 3, this is for you:

Like you, I'm not sure where to start.

You accuse me of having a "wishful and naive view" of the ability of public school students in Besthesda/CC/Potomac to afford college. I think your view is off-base. Here are some examples. I'm using Whitman as a proxy because it's often tagged as the highest-performing MoCo public school, and in 2013, it had the highest average SAT score of any public school in MoCo.
1. You say, "At all of these schools, you will find FARMS rates of 5-15%." At Whitman, the FARMS rate is "<5%." Note that "<5%" is the reporting limit, so the actual FARMS rate may well be far less than 5%.
2. You suggest the "non-English-speaking" percentage is also high. In reality, Whitman's ESOL rate is also "<5%."
3. You say " many public school kids don't even take the PSATs or SATs." In fact, 393 of Whitman's 462 grads in 2013 (over 85%) took the SAT. That's down from 86% in 2012, and 87% in 2011.
4. You say "many public school kids ... aren't planning to go to college." In reality, 97% of Whitman's seniors go on to college. 89% of them attend 4-year colleges.
5. You argue that public school students are limited to only low-cost colleges. In reality, 76% of Whitman's graduates attend out-of-state colleges. In other words, 85% of those attending 4-year colleges are going out-of-state, and only 15% are attending UMD or equivalent. If finances are such a huge strain, why such a small % attending UMD?

So let's compare ...

% of NMSFs (last 5 years)
STA 11%
Holton 7%
Sidwell 11%
NCS 8%
GDS 8%
Whitman (out of whole class) 4.5%
Whitman (out of 97% attending college) 5%
Whitman (out of 89% attending 4-year colleges) 5%
Whitman (out of 76% attending out-of-state colleges) 6%

% attending Ivy colleges (2013)
STA 25%
Holton 14%
Landon 12%
Whitman (out of whole class) 4%
Whitman (out of 97% attending college) 4%
Whitman (out of 89% attending 4-year colleges) 5%
Whitman (out of 76% attending out-of-state colleges) 6%

Looking at just top 25% of the class
% NMSF from just top 25% of STA: 57%
% NMSF from just top 25% of NCS: 42%
% NMSF from just top 25% of Holton: 40%
% NMSF from just top 25% of Landon: 15%
% NMSF from just top 25% of Sidwell: 57%
% NMSF from just top 25% of GDS: 31%
% NMSF from just top 25% of Whitman: 16%

% attending Ivy from top 25% of STA: 100%
% attending Ivy from top 25% of Holton: 55%
% attending Ivy from top 25% of Landon: 48%
% attending Ivy from top 25% of Whitman: 17%

You quibble about my statement that top students "flock" to private schools, and you instead want to say private schools "skim the cream" by selecting the top students. I stand by my phrasing, because it's the students/families who voluntarily choose to apply to the private schools. Most strong private schools are receiving 5-7 times more applications than they have slots. To the extent private schools are "skimming the cream," it's only skimmed from those students who choose to apply and attend the private schools.

But nevertheless, we seem to agree that private schools derive at least part of their advantage in student success from the quality of students that choose to attend private schools. We probably could discuss at length how much "value add" those top students get from choosing private school over public; we might even agree on several points. But surely we can also agree (whatever the root causes) that students from strong private schools are more likely to demonstrate objective academic success than students from public schools, can't we?

(Also, to repeat my comment from page 3, I'm not knocking public schools. I proudly attended public schools, and I turned out OK. And the public schools around here are far better than the ones I attended! We are blessed in this area with many strong schools, so I find it unfortunate that people insist on trashing any of them.)

Oh, hush, hush, hush! Nobody wants to hear the truth on this forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You lost me at family with a HHI of $200k can afford a house in the Whitman district. Can you add ROckville HS to your comparison.

Plenty of houses in places like Hillmead that feed into Whitman and can be had for. $800-900,000. If good schools are important to you, this can be done on $200,000.

[Anonymous]

Maybe the reason for different private and public Ivy rates is obvious and simple. More private school parents care about status, and that's why some are in private school in the first place. So for colleges they are again more likely to choose Ivies than the public school families.

[Anonymous]

PP...no one gets to "choose Ivies"...the Ivies choose them not vice versa. Rejection rates are between 95% - 93% are most Ivies. Sorry honey.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP...no one gets to "choose Ivies"...the Ivies choose them not vice versa. Rejection rates are between 95% - 93% are most Ivies. Sorry honey.

OK. Status-conscious familues are more likely to *apply to* private schools and more likely to *apply to* Ivies. With the result that they are more likely to attend said institutions.

Do you feel better now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:By the way, 12:03/12:41, our exchange will be a lot more productive if you'd quit disrespecting and insulting me. I know you disagree with me. It does not improve your credibility when you repeatedly say I have "no clue" or "know nothing" or am "naive." Instead of wasting words with snarky comments, focus on proving your points.

I'm holding back. I was going to say something like, "yes, yes, dearie, I'm sure if you lined the kids at STA and Whitman up by GPA, and then compared family tax returns one-for-one, you'd find an exact correspondence in family financial situations." And then I was going to suggest you shouldn't worry your pretty little head about this stuff, and instead go drop $250 on your highlights at the salon.

We've been in the position of choosing between a Bethesda house and Whitman/BCC vs. Eastern MoCo and private. You clearly haven't. If we had gone for the Bethesda house, we wouldn't be able to pay for DCs Ivy now. Absolute truth.

My last question: are you a school AD? Because I can't believe that anybody without a really serious investment in this question would be making the arguments you're making.

It's unfortunate you cannot participate in a meaningful discussion. Since you are offering only insults, and precious few substantive contributions, I will exit as well.

FWIW, I'm not employed by any school. My family's HHI is <350k, and we live in Eastern MoCo. You really ought to check your assumptions, and your attitude.