anyone believe in near death experiences (NDE)?

[Anonymous]

An afterlife can exist without a god. We always tie the two together, but that doesn't make it necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandfather had a NDE when he had a heart attack in his late 40s. He was pronounced dead, but he revived some time later. He was already a man of deep faith, so he felt no need to talk about the details of the experience, but he lived the next 30+ years with great peace, love, and joy.

For those with no faith, no metaphysical mystery will be great enough to instill awe. There are so many things about the human experience that defy understanding. I read The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven with interest, and I've been meaning to take Heaven is for Real out of the library. I find the stories intriguing. But they are not necessary for my faith.

I do wonder about those who don't know or care about the possibility of an afterlife. The degree of confidence you must have in materialism goes far beyond the confidence most people have in God. Why so certain when you have no material evidence you are correct?

The problem with your hypothesis is that just about any mythos--from Poseidon, to Cthulhu, to Christ, to FSM, to No Gods At All--is equally likely given the evidence. It's nice you've found a story that gives you comfort though.

The problem I have with your posts is that you say that all of these things being true are "equally likely," but then you keep making statements to the effect that a belief in God is unequivocally false. If you admit that we truly don't know, then why aren't you open to the possibility that God does exist?

I think that when you include the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM), saying equally likely means "none of these things exist".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't care about who here believes or disbelieves in the afterlife. The earlier poster described the ability to see into the future. That flat out defies the laws of physics. And, if it were true, it would mean that fate, not free will, determines what happens to us. And that is a pretty damaging blow to Christian religion.

So the way I see it, the poster shot a dart at both science and religion, without even knowing it.

I don't think it necessarily defies the laws of physics. But maybe you can explain it to me better (I mean that sincerely, I'm certainly not a scientist). However, the future is nothing but a plot point in the expanding universe. The actual physical location of something. And scientists just recently conducted an experiment that made diamond crystals exist in two places at once.

http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/07/diamonds-entangled-in-physics-feat/

Plus, most physicists now believe there are up to 11 dimensions, not just the 4 we think about in daily life. Stephen Hawking recently made a logical case that there are multiple universes with the possibility of different physical laws in each.

There is a LOT we don't know yet.

I mean that the standard model of physics does not allow for information to travel from the future to the past. If it does, cause and effect is broken and time itself is an illusion. The magnitude of this is why physicists are going crazy over the possibility of particles going faster than the speed of light, because that could possibly break the one way nature of time. Anything is possible because scientists cannot ever say that a theory is proven truth, but it means that our standard model physics is wrong in a really important way.

The example of the diamond crystals is the exact opposite. This is confirmation of quantum entanglement, which is a really strange result of the theory of quantum mechanics. It was so strange that it was hard to believe - even for Eistein. But since then we have done many, many experiments in quantum entanglement. The unusual nature of this experiment was the size and temperature of the diamond crystals. Normally it is hard to observe quantum effects on big objects (and by big I mean 3 mm across), but it is predicted. So this experiment confirms yet again what scientists have believed for 80 years.

[Anonymous]

Oh I should also point out that the diamond did not appear in two places at once. Two diamond particles had their quantum states entangled. However quantum physics does allow for a particle to exist in multiple states at the same time, it's just not what entanglement is about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had one. I wouldn't say I was profoundly affected by the experience, but I certainly was by the event that led to the NDE. If anything, the NDE showed me that the dying experience is far more peaceful than I had ever considered it could be. I'm not afraid of death anymore. I also haven't believed in life after death or a deity since it happened.

Interesting that you don't believe in life after death after having an NDE. This contrasts with accounts from most NDE survivors based on books I've read. Can you elaborate?

Sure it contrasts with what you read in books. What author is going to write a book about people who had NDEs and didn't feel anything special, or who still don't believe in God afterwards? What is the market for that book compared to one that gives people hope that God exists? It's like with vaccinations. One book alerts you to the many dangers of vaccinations. The other is a book that confirms the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Regardless of the scientific evidence in either, which book will sell? Of course the one which alerts you to the many dangers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had one. I wouldn't say I was profoundly affected by the experience, but I certainly was by the event that led to the NDE. If anything, the NDE showed me that the dying experience is far more peaceful than I had ever considered it could be. I'm not afraid of death anymore. I also haven't believed in life after death or a deity since it happened.

Interesting that you don't believe in life after death after having an NDE. This contrasts with accounts from most NDE survivors based on books I've read. Can you elaborate?

Sure it contrasts with what you read in books. What author is going to write a book about people who had NDEs and didn't feel anything special, or who still don't believe in God afterwards? What is the market for that book compared to one that gives people hope that God exists? It's like with vaccinations. One book alerts you to the many dangers of vaccinations. The other is a book that confirms the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Regardless of the scientific evidence in either, which book will sell? Of course the one which alerts you to the many dangers.

Fair enough. But you didn't answer the question. Why did the NDE make you NOT believe in life after death or a deity? Did you believe in those before the NDE?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had one. I wouldn't say I was profoundly affected by the experience, but I certainly was by the event that led to the NDE. If anything, the NDE showed me that the dying experience is far more peaceful than I had ever considered it could be. I'm not afraid of death anymore. I also haven't believed in life after death or a deity since it happened.

Interesting that you don't believe in life after death after having an NDE. This contrasts with accounts from most NDE survivors based on books I've read. Can you elaborate?

Sure it contrasts with what you read in books. What author is going to write a book about people who had NDEs and didn't feel anything special, or who still don't believe in God afterwards? What is the market for that book compared to one that gives people hope that God exists? It's like with vaccinations. One book alerts you to the many dangers of vaccinations. The other is a book that confirms the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Regardless of the scientific evidence in either, which book will sell? Of course the one which alerts you to the many dangers.

Fair enough. But you didn't answer the question. Why did the NDE make you NOT believe in life after death or a deity? Did you believe in those before the NDE?

I'm the first PP, but not the 3rd.

The simple answer is that religion stop being believable after the NDE. There were logical explanations and none of them involved a deity.

[Anonymous]

This! http://gma.yahoo.com/video/news-26797925/sick-teen-s-videos-go-viral-after-death-27729605.html

[Anonymous]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/10/25/does-time-exist/

interesting debate

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I mean that the standard model of physics does not allow for information to travel from the future to the past. If it does, cause and effect is broken and time itself is an illusion.[u] The magnitude of this is why physicists are going crazy over the possibility of particles going faster than the speed of light, because that could possibly break the one way nature of time. Anything is possible because scientists cannot ever say that a theory is proven truth, but it means that our standard model physics is wrong in a really important way.

The example of the diamond crystals is the exact opposite. This is confirmation of quantum entanglement, which is a really strange result of the theory of quantum mechanics. It was so strange that it was hard to believe - even for Eistein. But since then we have done many, many experiments in quantum entanglement. The unusual nature of this experiment was the size and temperature of the diamond crystals. Normally it is hard to observe quantum effects on big objects (and by big I mean 3 mm across), but it is predicted. So this experiment confirms yet again what scientists have believed for 80 years.

[Anonymous]

I almost died during childbirth - my organs failed and my heart stopped. I remember people yelling at me to hold on and then resuscitating me, but all I wanted to do was go to sleep. I felt very very tired. I remember feeling like I was being very naughty for wanting to sleep even though they were trying to make me stay awake - like I had just gotten busted stealing cookies or something. I remember that they gave me some really strong dose of something in my IV that snapped me back and it felt like a rubber band. My heart started and things got very very sharp and focused and I suddenly remembered that I had a child and started to respond. But when I was dying, all I could think about was going to sleep.

I would not

[Anonymous]

sorry, 13:39 - I would not say I felt anything particularly important or spiritual. I was not called back or anything. No lights or voices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandfather had a NDE when he had a heart attack in his late 40s. He was pronounced dead, but he revived some time later. He was already a man of deep faith, so he felt no need to talk about the details of the experience, but he lived the next 30+ years with great peace, love, and joy.

For those with no faith, no metaphysical mystery will be great enough to instill awe. There are so many things about the human experience that defy understanding. I read The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven with interest, and I've been meaning to take Heaven is for Real out of the library. I find the stories intriguing. But they are not necessary for my faith.

I do wonder about those who don't know or care about the possibility of an afterlife. The degree of confidence you must have in materialism goes far beyond the confidence most people have in God. Why so certain when you have no material evidence you are correct?

The problem with your hypothesis is that just about any mythos--from Poseidon, to Cthulhu, to Christ, to FSM, to No Gods At All--is equally likely given the evidence. It's nice you've found a story that gives you comfort though.

The problem I have with your posts is that you say that all of these things being true are "equally likely," but then you keep making statements to the effect that a belief in God is unequivocally false. If you admit that we truly don't know, then why aren't you open to the possibility that God does exist?

Sorry, you're right, obviously. For completeness' sake: Poseidon? As likely as God. Flying Spaghetti Monster? Equally likely. In fact, the it's just as likely that there's a Pantheon of these characters who all exist somewhere and who are taking notes, preparing to judge us when we die. Or it could just be a giant unicorn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandfather had a NDE when he had a heart attack in his late 40s. He was pronounced dead, but he revived some time later. He was already a man of deep faith, so he felt no need to talk about the details of the experience, but he lived the next 30+ years with great peace, love, and joy.

For those with no faith, no metaphysical mystery will be great enough to instill awe. There are so many things about the human experience that defy understanding. I read The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven with interest, and I've been meaning to take Heaven is for Real out of the library. I find the stories intriguing. But they are not necessary for my faith.

I do wonder about those who don't know or care about the possibility of an afterlife. The degree of confidence you must have in materialism goes far beyond the confidence most people have in God. Why so certain when you have no material evidence you are correct?

The problem with your hypothesis is that just about any mythos--from Poseidon, to Cthulhu, to Christ, to FSM, to No Gods At All--is equally likely given the evidence. It's nice you've found a story that gives you comfort though.

The problem I have with your posts is that you say that all of these things being true are "equally likely," but then you keep making statements to the effect that a belief in God is unequivocally false. If you admit that we truly don't know, then why aren't you open to the possibility that God does exist?

Sorry, you're right, obviously. For completeness' sake: Poseidon? As likely as God. Flying Spaghetti Monster? Equally likely. In fact, the it's just as likely that there's a Pantheon of these characters who all exist somewhere and who are taking notes, preparing to judge us when we die. Or it could just be a giant unicorn.

And, before you start special pleading about how anyone who doesn't honor your particular set of irrational beliefs for which there is no evidence, I'd like to say that my dog is actually the reincarnation of the Creator of the universe, and judges all of us from my sofa. And don't you dare mock or belittle that belief, otherwise you're just a really, really evil person.

[Anonymous]

So many non-believers are confusing a "religious" God with spirituality. The two are different. These NDEs may have seen Jesus or God (however God is defined). But who's to say that our afterlife isn't created by our current belief system?

There's a passage in the book I'm reading now that claims that those who are stuck - w/o a belief system, for example, or blocked from moving on - are stuck in the afterlife. So maybe we do create our own meaning.

But to poke fun of people who have experienced life-altering experiences is just plain cruel - and steeped in ignorance. Our whole existence is fake. The earth gives us land, yet we pay people to farm for us. We pay stores to stock up on goods. There's water, but we pay for that. Money is just paper and metal. We have so many ridiculous laws to govern our every move b/c sadly, we can't govern ourselves. We need fear to keep us on the "right" path.

So how can you question that this world is the end all? Our existence is pathetic. We're small creatures in a vast universe. And who's to say that IF I could use all of my mind, I wouldn't see Whoville right by my side.

Anything is possible. But so many of you can't pass the concrete to move into the abstract. So you remain stuck.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandfather had a NDE when he had a heart attack in his late 40s. He was pronounced dead, but he revived some time later. He was already a man of deep faith, so he felt no need to talk about the details of the experience, but he lived the next 30+ years with great peace, love, and joy.

For those with no faith, no metaphysical mystery will be great enough to instill awe. There are so many things about the human experience that defy understanding. I read The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven with interest, and I've been meaning to take Heaven is for Real out of the library. I find the stories intriguing. But they are not necessary for my faith.

I do wonder about those who don't know or care about the possibility of an afterlife. The degree of confidence you must have in materialism goes far beyond the confidence most people have in God. Why so certain when you have no material evidence you are correct?

The problem with your hypothesis is that just about any mythos--from Poseidon, to Cthulhu, to Christ, to FSM, to No Gods At All--is equally likely given the evidence. It's nice you've found a story that gives you comfort though.

The problem I have with your posts is that you say that all of these things being true are "equally likely," but then you keep making statements to the effect that a belief in God is unequivocally false. If you admit that we truly don't know, then why aren't you open to the possibility that God does exist?

Sorry, you're right, obviously. For completeness' sake: Poseidon? As likely as God. Flying Spaghetti Monster? Equally likely. In fact, the it's just as likely that there's a Pantheon of these characters who all exist somewhere and who are taking notes, preparing to judge us when we die. Or it could just be a giant unicorn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many non-believers are confusing a "religious" God with spirituality. The two are different.

Wrong. They're both metaphysical phenomena that have no support from any kind of evidence. They require "faith"--the willing suspension of disbelief. They're equally likely. Or unlikely as the case may be.