Fired DC Teachers: Which Schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's not blaming the kids; it's understanding that teachers are not cause of academic failure.

Maybe this is one root of the disagreement on this subject. PP, can we agree that in some situations certain teachers are the cause of academic failure? Or is your position that teachers are never the cause of academic failure?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is my question about the ME process. It was put in as a counter to principal evaluations that were biased i.e. too easy or too hard. It sounds to me that Teachers don't want that process either. I get why the Montgomery County process has appeal to teachers, but do folks think it will work in schools with large scale failure? Does Montgomery County have any equivalent schools to Ballou where under 20% are on grade level or Malcolm X elementary which is in the same boat? It would seem to me that in that case it would be a problem not to have an outside observer because the internal process would always be biased in favor of blaming the kids. While I know it is not possible to look at where these kids live and not see some impact it can't be the only cause for such low rates of success.

Here's my undertanding of what happened -- teachers complained about principals possibly being biased (depending on the principal) so di want some kind of unbiased input. DCPS gave them IMPACT -- saying -- OK this is what you said you wanted!! outside observer, yes, but not a detailed rubric, with ridiculous requirements for classroom-only behavior, no pilot and no recourse if you're deemed "ineffective" by this system at the end of the year.

The system should not biased to blaming anyone. It should not be a matter of whether it's the kids' fault or the teachers' fault -- though DCPS has certainly framed it that way. that is -- it's not the kids' fault - all kids can learn at the highest levels despite any differences in their lives outside of school; it's the teacher's fault for not teaching well. That attitude lacks compassion and understanding for the kids and puts teachers in the position of being a failure if they aren't equally successful with all children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not blaming the kids; it's understanding that teachers are not cause of academic failure.

Maybe this is one root of the disagreement on this subject. PP, can we agree that in some situations certain teachers are the cause of academic failure? Or is your position that teachers are never the cause of academic failure?

Not the PP, but, I'd say certainly there are cases where the teacher isn't cutting it - where the kids would be able to make progress with another teacher that they can't with teacher 1.

The problem with DCPS is that they have predetermined that the cause of low academic achievement here is because of the teachers and not because of the myriad problems many of our students face. They also determined that getting different teachers would solve the problem! it was really stupid and the kids will be paying for it for a long time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not blaming the kids; it's understanding that teachers are not cause of academic failure.

Maybe this is one root of the disagreement on this subject. PP, can we agree that in some situations certain teachers are the cause of academic failure? Or is your position that teachers are never the cause of academic failure?

Not the PP, but, I'd say certainly there are cases where the teacher isn't cutting it - where the kids would be able to make progress with another teacher that they can't with teacher 1.

OK, so what system can be put in place to identify and remove those ineffective teachers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not blaming the kids; it's understanding that teachers are not cause of academic failure.

Maybe this is one root of the disagreement on this subject. PP, can we agree that in some situations certain teachers are the cause of academic failure? Or is your position that teachers are never the cause of academic failure?

Not the PP, but, I'd say certainly there are cases where the teacher isn't cutting it - where the kids would be able to make progress with another teacher that they can't with teacher 1.

OK, so what system can be put in place to identify and remove those ineffective teachers?

PPEP and the 90-day plan

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not blaming the kids; it's understanding that teachers are not cause of academic failure.

Maybe this is one root of the disagreement on this subject. PP, can we agree that in some situations certain teachers are the cause of academic failure? Or is your position that teachers are never the cause of academic failure?

Not the PP, but, I'd say certainly there are cases where the teacher isn't cutting it - where the kids would be able to make progress with another teacher that they can't with teacher 1.

OK, so what system can be put in place to identify and remove those ineffective teachers?

Something much simpler,

then the main focus should be mentoring and professional development.

Take a look at other successful systems, where the administration and the teachers are satisfied with how it's working. get principals on board. Common sense stuff.

[Anonymous]

Something much simpler,

then the main focus should be mentoring and professional development.

Take a look at other successful systems, where the administration and the teachers are satisfied with how it's working. get principals on board. Common sense stuff.

Yes this makes sense- but in other systems is an improve or out in 2 years kind of situation. But here is my question that I think is rarely asked by teachers or at least the one they avoid. What happens with those that burn out. I have had coworkers whose parents were teachers tell me how much their parent hated teaching the last 10 years of their career but did it because the pension loss would be too great. I know this problem is not unique to teaching, but may have a pretty significant impact in teaching. I can imagine teaching in high stress places may be even more challenging. How do you address these type of situations? If you stop the evaluation at the first several years you can accumulate quite a bit of deadwood. I would hate for my child to have a teacher that hated every minute of being there, I can imagine that person will not be able to shield it from the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Something much simpler,

then the main focus should be mentoring and professional development.

Take a look at other successful systems, where the administration and the teachers are satisfied with how it's working. get principals on board. Common sense stuff.

Yes this makes sense- but in other systems is an improve or out in 2 years kind of situation. But here is my question that I think is rarely asked by teachers or at least the one they avoid. What happens with those that burn out. I have had coworkers whose parents were teachers tell me how much their parent hated teaching the last 10 years of their career but did it because the pension loss would be too great. I know this problem is not unique to teaching, but may have a pretty significant impact in teaching. I can imagine teaching in high stress places may be even more challenging. How do you address these type of situations? If you stop the evaluation at the first several years you can accumulate quite a bit of deadwood. I would hate for my child to have a teacher that hated every minute of being there, I can imagine that person will not be able to shield it from the kids.

Just because you have a friend who told you her parent hated teaching for 10 years:

1) doesn't mean it's absolutely true and had a negative impact on the students. (THink of all the people who stay in a bad marriage and carry out their spousal and parental duties quite adequately)
2) doesn't mean this is typical and thus needs to be focused on in place of other, more pressing issues in education
3) doesn't mean it can be adequately addressed by an evaluation system.
4) Doesn't mean systemic changes couldn't be made to keep more teachers happy and engaged and productive- if that were a priority and experienced teachers were respected

Also, there could be creative ways of getting people out of the classroom who want to leave before their retirement date - an attractive buy-out, a different job for less money, maybe, but keeping their pension intact.

[Anonymous]

I actually think the solution to the PP issue is pension reform. Create a 401k with employer matching. Pensions keep cautious people in the workplace other more innovative people leave or never start such workplaces.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually think the solution to the PP issue is pension reform. Create a 401k with employer matching. Pensions keep cautious people in the workplace other more innovative people leave or never start such workplaces.

I don't buy the cautious/innovative dichotomy.

Some folks with trust funds, inheritances and lucky stock market picks are very innovative, knowing they have some financial security.

Some may quit working and spend most of their time going on cruises, while others start a non-profit or an entrepenerial venture and work feverishly at making it successful.

Some people work better under pressure and some work better in a more secure environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so what system can be put in place to identify and remove those ineffective teachers?

PPEP and the 90-day plan

Wasn't PPEP viewed almost universally as a complete and utter disaster?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so what system can be put in place to identify and remove those ineffective teachers?

PPEP and the 90-day plan

Wasn't PPEP viewed almost universally as a complete and utter disaster?

No - it was portrayed that way by Rhee and co., but if used correctly, it could work.

Not to say it couldn't use improvement, but IMPACT, in my opinion is much worse.

[Anonymous]

"Something much simpler,

then the main focus should be mentoring and professional development.

Take a look at other successful systems, where the administration and the teachers are satisfied with how it's working. get principals on board. Common sense stuff."

I don't disagree, but the fact is during certain periods DCPS had a pretty low bar for hiring teachers, and there was a group that needed to be weeded out (which is what Rhee was brought in to do). You do need to start with a certain base level of competence before you can raise the level of instruction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so what system can be put in place to identify and remove those ineffective teachers?

PPEP and the 90-day plan

Wasn't PPEP viewed almost universally as a complete and utter disaster?

No - it was portrayed that way by Rhee and co., but if used correctly, it could work.

Really? I just did a Google search for posts on PPEP from 2009 and earlier, and they seem pretty uncomplimentary.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/special/2007/Bfeature0223.pdf
http://realeducationreformdc.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-teacher-bad-teacher-how-do-we.html
http://thewashingtonteacher.blogspot.com/2008/12/dcs-unprincipled-principals.html
http://thewashingtonteacher.blogspot.com/2008/12/eyes-wide-shut-on-90-day-dc-teacher.html
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dc/2009/10/some_dc_teachers_go_back_to_wo.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, so what system can be put in place to identify and remove those ineffective teachers?

PPEP and the 90-day plan

Wasn't PPEP viewed almost universally as a complete and utter disaster?

No - it was portrayed that way by Rhee and co., but if used correctly, it could work.

Really? I just did a Google search for posts on PPEP from 2009 and earlier, and they seem pretty uncomplimentary.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/special/2007/Bfeature0223.pdf
http://realeducationreformdc.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-teacher-bad-teacher-how-do-we.html
http://thewashingtonteacher.blogspot.com/2008/12/dcs-unprincipled-principals.html
http://thewashingtonteacher.blogspot.com/2008/12/eyes-wide-shut-on-90-day-dc-teacher.html
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dc/2009/10/some_dc_teachers_go_back_to_wo.html

Did you read about capital gains? the Baltimore miracle? the big gains at Noyes under the incredible principal there? You can't believe everthing you read in the paper. As I said, PPEP was far from perfect, but no sign it was an utter disaster either. I do believe an improved PPEP would have been better than IMPACT -- just about anything would be.

Scores were actually improving during the PPEP years - that doesn't mean that PPEP was responsible for the increase, but it sure wasn't hurting.