Ash Wednesday: Feel so weird keeping ashes on, but feel guilty washing them off!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who would come on DCUM to blast somebody else's faith anonymously? A bitter, angry person, that's who. Or a troll.

Are you serious? Christians and all kinds of people of faith have their beliefs criticized all the time. And has anyone noticed that I'm not criticizing Jesus, the New Testament, the Christian narrative? I am criticizing a human institution full of fallible people who are all quite capable of making a mess of things. Criticizing an organized religion that has one of the largest lobbying efforts on the hill is verboten now? And why would that be?

Tell me, do you spew the same vitriol at Muslims?

I don't know much about Muslims. And how am I spewing vitriol? Are you saying anything I've pointed out is inaccurate? I'm not criticizing Christians or their core beliefs, just the institution of the Catholic church. And yes, there are other churches I'd criticize...scientology, to name one. Perhaps if the Catholic church confined itself to proscribing their rules to Catholics I wouldn't have such an issue with them. But they don't want only Catholic gay people to remain celibate, they want all gay people (even Muslims and Jews and athiests) to follow their rules. And so on and so forth. If the church can lobby congress not to pass health care reform, and to pass the "Defense of Marriage Act," then I think they have not only invited criticism, but also deserve it.

You seem very focused on the rights of gays. Not a problem for me, but if you think the Catholic church has issues with homosexuals, you ought to check out what Muslims view as an appropriate consequence for homosexual behavior.

[Anonymous]

As reported by the International Lesbian and Gay Association, at least seven countries retain capital punishment for homosexuality. All are predominately Muslim countries--Iran, Afghanistan, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I am not a troll and I absolutely can see nuance. I never said all Catholics believe these things are ok. But the church leadership is very clear about their beliefs...read the catechism, read their encyclicals. The church isn't a democracy. Laity are not empowered to choose which of these things to believe and which they can dismiss. Catholics are supposed to oppose gay marriage and the church has held so staunchly to that position that they are willing to forgo many of these other "good works" you speak of in order not to have to provide health insurance to the spouse's of gay people that don't even belong to their church! The leadership has become so tied to the opposition to abortion that they have stripped women of their very humanity in many instances (preferring to allow women and fetuses to die rather than allow a termination). They have held steadfastly to their objection of brth control even in societies throughout the world where they have a huge hand in aid but will not supply people or even ok the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. It isn't just small and insignificant things that westerners are permitted to ignore. These things adversely effect the lives of people all over the world all the time. And there is no excuse out there for the insular way the church protected priests who sexually molested children for years. They chose to protect their institution over stopping widespread abuse. How can anyone claim that tha kind of leadership is healthy? No, it is not all bad, and yes the church does good work. But it is fundamentally broken and corrupt in my opinion.

Well actually, your initial post of 3/3 19:17 said exactly this. Here are your exact words: "I can understand why she wouldn't want to be confused with a "hard-core Catholic." I don't want people to think I support bigotry, pedophilia, homophobia, and misogyny either."

So the only thing to conclude is that you came on here to bash all catholics as mindless, robotic followers. You are a troll. And you are absolutely incapable of seeing nuance.

Your many defensive posts all give the sense that you're enjoying your role here. Ugh, you are disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Nicholas Kristof on how problems in the catholic church shouldn't blind us to the many good things it is also doing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/opinion/18kristof.html?_r=1&scp=8&sq=kristof+catholic&st=nyt

Not that the troll will even bother to read it. Her head might explode if she had to think both good and bad things about something.

[Anonymous]

Sadly, someone quite nasty and bitter is conflating matters of faith (pro-life, yes in almost all circumstances) and criminal acts (pedophilia) which, sadly, were brushed under the rug by fallible men. The core of the Catholic faith is under the auspices of the Vatican, which has become a political entity in and of itself - the antithesis of the separation of church Although the implications of some of those beliefs are tougher in the world today than they were two thousand years ago (for example, disapproving of condoms in Africa to spread AIDS), there are reasons behind it.

That being said, this Pope and the College of Cardinals are struggling with whether there is a way to reconcile the tenets of our faith and Jesus's teachings with some of the realities of the world today. For all you lawyers out there, think of it as the difference between a strict constructionist versus more active interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. Will the position change on gays (and specifically gay marriage). Probably not. Will the views on abortion change? No way. But, do I someday see an evolution in the view towards birth control? I do, as just one example. Do I expect to see female deacons in my life time? I do, although probably not female priests. Many priests within the Church will also admit that these are tough issues, and are thoroughly ashamed of the larger child abuse scandal as they should be.

These are realities that the black-and-white troll either chooses not to consider or is not aware of. Is she as angry and hateful towards this country and its leaders? Over our history, while we have a belief in democracy and the equality of all (call that the basic tenets of "faith" in our nation), we also have a history of slavery, oppression of women and the like. So, clearly you would never call yourself a Catholic. Why would you call yourself an American based on the many flaws of this country's leaders over time?

Ugh, I meant to just post "let's not respond to the troll anymore" but couldn't help myself in responding!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not a troll and I absolutely can see nuance. I never said all Catholics believe these things are ok. But the church leadership is very clear about their beliefs...read the catechism, read their encyclicals. The church isn't a democracy. Laity are not empowered to choose which of these things to believe and which they can dismiss. Catholics are supposed to oppose gay marriage and the church has held so staunchly to that position that they are willing to forgo many of these other "good works" you speak of in order not to have to provide health insurance to the spouse's of gay people that don't even belong to their church! The leadership has become so tied to the opposition to abortion that they have stripped women of their very humanity in many instances (preferring to allow women and fetuses to die rather than allow a termination). They have held steadfastly to their objection of brth control even in societies throughout the world where they have a huge hand in aid but will not supply people or even ok the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. It isn't just small and insignificant things that westerners are permitted to ignore. These things adversely effect the lives of people all over the world all the time. And there is no excuse out there for the insular way the church protected priests who sexually molested children for years. They chose to protect their institution over stopping widespread abuse. How can anyone claim that tha kind of leadership is healthy? No, it is not all bad, and yes the church does good work. But it is fundamentally broken and corrupt in my opinion.

Well actually, your initial post of 3/3 19:17 said exactly this. Here are your exact words: "I can understand why she wouldn't want to be confused with a "hard-core Catholic." I don't want people to think I support bigotry, pedophilia, homophobia, and misogyny either."

So the only thing to conclude is that you came on here to bash all catholics as mindless, robotic followers. You are a troll. And you are absolutely incapable of seeing nuance.

Your many defensive posts all give the sense that you're enjoying your role here. Ugh, you are disgusting.

How does "hard-core Catholic" become "all Catholics?" I never said all Catholics, but the fact remins that all Catholics, no matter how cafeteria their faith are told to follow the same rules and conduct themselves according to the interpretaions of the bishops and the Pope. Are you going to disagree with that? And fine, you think I'm disgusting. I think it's disgusting to molest children, discriminate against gay people, treat women as second class citizens, oppose health care reform, refuse to distribute or sanction condom use in an AIDS crisis, and put the lives of fetuses over the lives of women. Maybe Muslims do these things as well, I don't know. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the Catholic church does do these things, and doesn't make it better that these forms of bigotry may be shared by other organized religions. And the Muslim faith (which I do know is not as cohesive a group as the Catholic church, which afterall does not represent all of Christianity but rather their own church) is not a huge lobbying force in Washington and one in four Americans don't identify themselves as Muslim. The large number of Americans who are Catholic give the church a much louder voice in politics here in the states. You can't have your church be, essentially, a voice for a particular political party (increasingly the Republicans) and expect it to remain unexamined and uncriticized. What you seem to fail to see is that while individual Catholics may have "nuance" as you call it in their beliefs, the leadership arm of the church is less nuanced in their beliefs about women's right (especially within the church), gay rights, abortion, birth control, health care reform etc... And the leaders are the one with the political capitol, and are the ones holding the coffers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am not a troll and I absolutely can see nuance. I never said all Catholics believe these things are ok. But the church leadership is very clear about their beliefs...read the catechism, read their encyclicals. The church isn't a democracy. Laity are not empowered to choose which of these things to believe and which they can dismiss. Catholics are supposed to oppose gay marriage and the church has held so staunchly to that position that they are willing to forgo many of these other "good works" you speak of in order not to have to provide health insurance to the spouse's of gay people that don't even belong to their church! The leadership has become so tied to the opposition to abortion that they have stripped women of their very humanity in many instances (preferring to allow women and fetuses to die rather than allow a termination). They have held steadfastly to their objection of brth control even in societies throughout the world where they have a huge hand in aid but will not supply people or even ok the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. It isn't just small and insignificant things that westerners are permitted to ignore. These things adversely effect the lives of people all over the world all the time. And there is no excuse out there for the insular way the church protected priests who sexually molested children for years. They chose to protect their institution over stopping widespread abuse. How can anyone claim that tha kind of leadership is healthy? No, it is not all bad, and yes the church does good work. But it is fundamentally broken and corrupt in my opinion.

Well actually, your initial post of 3/3 19:17 said exactly this. Here are your exact words: "I can understand why she wouldn't want to be confused with a "hard-core Catholic." I don't want people to think I support bigotry, pedophilia, homophobia, and misogyny either."

So the only thing to conclude is that you came on here to bash all catholics as mindless, robotic followers. You are a troll. And you are absolutely incapable of seeing nuance.


Your many defensive posts all give the sense that you're enjoying your role here. Ugh, you are disgusting.

How does "hard-core Catholic" become "all Catholics?" I never said all Catholics, but the fact remins that all Catholics, no matter how cafeteria their faith are told to follow the same rules and conduct themselves according to the interpretaions of the bishops and the Pope. Are you going to disagree with that? And fine, you think I'm disgusting. I think it's disgusting to molest children, discriminate against gay people, treat women as second class citizens, oppose health care reform, refuse to distribute or sanction condom use in an AIDS crisis, and put the lives of fetuses over the lives of women. Maybe Muslims do these things as well, I don't know. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the Catholic church does do these things, and doesn't make it better that these forms of bigotry may be shared by other organized religions. And the Muslim faith (which I do know is not as cohesive a group as the Catholic church, which afterall does not represent all of Christianity but rather their own church) is not a huge lobbying force in Washington and one in four Americans don't identify themselves as Muslim. The large number of Americans who are Catholic give the church a much louder voice in politics here in the states. You can't have your church be, essentially, a voice for a particular political party (increasingly the Republicans) and expect it to remain unexamined and uncriticized. What you seem to fail to see is that while individual Catholics may have "nuance" as you call it in their beliefs, the leadership arm of the church is less nuanced in their beliefs about women's right (especially within the church), gay rights, abortion, birth control, health care reform etc... And the leaders are the one with the political capitol, and are the ones holding the coffers.

There's no "maybe" to it. They stone and hang for sodomy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sadly, someone quite nasty and bitter is conflating matters of faith (pro-life, yes in almost all circumstances) and criminal acts (pedophilia) which, sadly, were brushed under the rug by fallible men. The core of the Catholic faith is under the auspices of the Vatican, which has become a political entity in and of itself - the antithesis of the separation of church Although the implications of some of those beliefs are tougher in the world today than they were two thousand years ago (for example, disapproving of condoms in Africa to spread AIDS), there are reasons behind it.

That being said, this Pope and the College of Cardinals are struggling with whether there is a way to reconcile the tenets of our faith and Jesus's teachings with some of the realities of the world today. For all you lawyers out there, think of it as the difference between a strict constructionist versus more active interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. Will the position change on gays (and specifically gay marriage). Probably not. Will the views on abortion change? No way. But, do I someday see an evolution in the view towards birth control? I do, as just one example. Do I expect to see female deacons in my life time? I do, although probably not female priests. Many priests within the Church will also admit that these are tough issues, and are thoroughly ashamed of the larger child abuse scandal as they should be.

These are realities that the black-and-white troll either chooses not to consider or is not aware of. Is she as angry and hateful towards this country and its leaders? Over our history, while we have a belief in democracy and the equality of all (call that the basic tenets of "faith" in our nation), we also have a history of slavery, oppression of women and the like. So, clearly you would never call yourself a Catholic. Why would you call yourself an American based on the many flaws of this country's leaders over time?

Ugh, I meant to just post "let's not respond to the troll anymore" but couldn't help myself in responding!

Uh, yeah, you hit on one critical difference between the US and the Catholic church. The US is a democracy and through the mechanisms of democracy Americans have changed things that offend them. The Cathlolic church is decidedly not democratic and there is NO mechinism by which the laity may make changes. I suppose if one is a man and willing to enter the priesthood they may one day affect some change, but those positions, as you point out, are closed to women. Even the deacon position as you mention, which lay men can hold but women cannot.

The US does and has done many things I am ashamed of (invading Iraq to name a recent example) but I have a VOTE and can RUN FOR OFFICE and make changes, even though I am a woman. The President is not a divinly appointed leader who makes rules with 100 or so other men who are supposed to be infallile.

Again, if Catholics were to confine their beliefs to themselves then I'd not take such issue with the church. But they don't. They want to tell me how to manage my sex life, to whom I may be married, whether or not I may have state assisted health care, etc, etc.... All while reamining a tax exempt institution I might add. I am not a troll because I am critical of those things. And I mention the sex abuse scandel because for someone on the outside you have to see that there is a troubling irony in the church trying to make themselves the moral authority of issues of sexual intimicy for people that don't even belog to their church. We are supposed to respect their judgement?

[Anonymous]

There's no "maybe" to it. They stone and hang for sodomy.


In the US?

Are they working hard to make stoning and hanging for sodomy legal in the US? Because I do know the Catholic church is working hard to make gay marriage stay illegal in the US even for people who have never and will never set foot in a Catholic (or any other) church. The fact that Muslims support hideous acts of violence against women and gay people does not mitigate the actions taken by the church against gay people and women.

[Anonymous]

^^^^^^

should read *some* Muslims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's no "maybe" to it. They stone and hang for sodomy.


In the US?

Are they working hard to make stoning and hanging for sodomy legal in the US? Because I do know the Catholic church is working hard to make gay marriage stay illegal in the US even for people who have never and will never set foot in a Catholic (or any other) church. The fact that Muslims support hideous acts of violence against women and gay people does not mitigate the actions taken by the church against gay people and women.

I didn't say that was happening in the US (thankfully, our wonderful country's laws aren't written that way). Just clarifying that there's no "maybe" to Muslim beliefs on the issue of homosexuality.

[Anonymous]

Dear bigot: what religion are you?

[Anonymous]

Folks, the way to deal with any troll - or bigot, which is what we've got here - is to ignore her so the thread dies.

Every time somebody responds with balance and reason, it prompts her to make 2-3 new posts that simply restate her earlier points. She restates. And restates again. Without any sign, any sign at all, that she understands what some other posters find that's good. She's incapable of learning, or taking in a "nuanced" view.

Let's not give her a platform for her bigotry, and let this thread die. Bigots aren't worth your time. I'm not catholic, so I can say these uncharitable things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^^^^

should read *some* Muslims.

I'm curious, do you think the bigot is the poster who comes on here occasionally to say she was raised catholic, used to teach Sunday school, and converted to islam, which she keeps telling us?

Or are you just pointing out that the bigot is willfully blind to anything outside the scope of her rage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Uh, yeah, you hit on one critical difference between the US and the Catholic church. The US is a democracy and through the mechanisms of democracy Americans have changed things that offend them. The Cathlolic church is decidedly not democratic and there is NO mechinism by which the laity may make changes. I suppose if one is a man and willing to enter the priesthood they may one day affect some change, but those positions, as you point out, are closed to women. Even the deacon position as you mention, which lay men can hold but women cannot.

The US does and has done many things I am ashamed of (invading Iraq to name a recent example) but I have a VOTE and can RUN FOR OFFICE and make changes, even though I am a woman. The President is not a divinly appointed leader who makes rules with 100 or so other men who are supposed to be infallile.

Again, if Catholics were to confine their beliefs to themselves then I'd not take such issue with the church. But they don't. They want to tell me how to manage my sex life, to whom I may be married, whether or not I may have state assisted health care, etc, etc.... All while reamining a tax exempt institution I might add. I am not a troll because I am critical of those things. And I mention the sex abuse scandel because for someone on the outside you have to see that there is a troubling irony in the church trying to make themselves the moral authority of issues of sexual intimicy for people that don't even belog to their church. We are supposed to respect their judgement?

Most faiths aren't democracies -- you believe in tenets of the faith or you don't. If you don't, you leave that church and find another. That's really not unusual.

Catholics don't confine their beliefs to themselves any more than any other interest group in this country does. Do pro-abortion groups advocate for insurance companies or the government to provide funding for abortions or to clinics that perform them? yes. Do pro-gay marriage entities advocate for gay marriage (thus trying to force a change in an institution that has been defined as a man and woman almost literally since the beginning of time? yes. Do senior citizen advocates continue to push hard for funding of Medicare and Social Security using my tax dollars even though those programs wn't be there fore me by the time I'm of retirement age? yes.

And as a political entity on the world stage they push their views on the world just as hard as any other nationa whether goverment to government or throught fora such as the UN.

Absolutely you can be critical. But as you keep telling everyone else on this thread who "ignores your arguments", you are ignoring the vitriol and bigotry in your rhetoric, and not acknowledging or lauding the changes that are and have been taking in the Church. It's much more satisfying to you to continue to be absolutely close minded and hateful. Simple Bigotry. Responding is like banging my head against a nasty, dirty wall but I'm astounded by the continued ignorance.