Ash Wednesday: Feel so weird keeping ashes on, but feel guilty washing them off!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

:shrug: well, your church supports those things. i can understand someone not wanting their coworkers to think they are opposed to gay rights, equality for women, and are for protecting pedophiles from the law. that might not be what you as a Catholic are all about, but that is what your church is about. oh, and should i also mention the bishops in your church who encourage people to vote for republicans? many people find many of these things objectionable and do not want to be associated with them. including my husband, an ex-catholic.

Clearly you are not sophisticated enough to see shades of ideas and theologies and differences among believers. You like black-and-white. You like to think some things are unambiguously good, and other things are unambiguously bad. You are simple-minded.

No, I'm actually not, at all. I believe the Catholic church is a corrupt institution with sheltered and wealthy men who support ideas that keep them in charge. I believe the church discriminates against gay people, and especially women. The church in DC was willing to abandon programs to help feed the poor in order to keep from having to insure the spouse's of gay people. The church has excommunicated nuns for assisting dying women in obtaining abortions. The church has refused to allow people in the third world access to condoms to help cease the spread of AIDS. The church was complicit in one of the largest pedophilia scandels the world has ever seen, working to protect pedophile priests instead of children. The church has many bishops lobby for parishoners to vote for Republican candidates despite their pro-death penalty, anti-environment and anti-immigrant stance in order to attempt to keep gay people and women from retaining their rights. I could go on. There may be individual Catholics who disagree with these things, but the church hierarchy is very clear. It's all there in the catechism.

You can think whatever you want about the church; those things are true and I wouldn't want to be associated with it, or thought to be associated with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The catholic hater is a troll, a sad little person who needs to be mad at somebody in order to deal with her own issues.

But the three responses to her, so far, have been spot-on, and even a bit funny, given the sad topic of her bigotry.

I am not a troll, and I am not alone in my beliefs. I may "bash" but I truly believe the church is corrupt. I know you disagree with me, and that is your right. How can you explain excommunicating a nun because, on the advice of medical professionals, she approves an abortion for a dying woman? How about excommunicating a mother who obtains an abortion for her pre-teen child, pregnant with twins as a result of incest? How can you justify the archdiocese of Washington DC threatening to pull financial funding for programs that feed poor people and help educate children just because they may have to offer health insurance to a few gay people? How can you explain the obstinate refusal of church hierarchy to make condoms available to AIDS plauged societies in the third world? How can you justify the disgusting cover-up of hundreds, if not thousands, of pedophile priests by church leaders? Shuffling them from church to church, never turing them over to authorities, allowing them to abuse over and over? How can you justify the child abuse perpetrated on innocent children in schools and orphanages in Ireland at the hands of priests and nuns? How can you justify the Pope's recent invitation to return to the fold of a known Holocaust denier?

So before I am called a bigot, let's just get this out there. This very small group of cloistered men, most of whom have never been intimate with a women, or raised a child, are making decisions that women all over the world are supposed to adhere to. Go on and keep going to your church and pretending you aren't supporting the above mentioned things. But seriously, think about it. Noteveryone who criticizes the church is simple minded, or a troll, or out to get you. Some people just believe it is a broken institution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You'll get a few looks early in the day from people who just haven't realized it's Ash Wednesday yet -- not because they're judging. Don't be ashamed. Be proud.

And, no, it does not matter that you're Episcopalian rather than hard-core Catholic. That's kind of offensive to those of us who are Catholic (who would otherwise sympathize with and support you here).

I think it does matter. The Episcopal church doesn't require you to keep them on. Frankly it doesn't require you to do much of anything. If I were a member of a religion that told me that keeping them on was a requirement, I would. I don't think it's awful to walk around with ashes. But if the religion wasn't as clear about expectations I might decide to wear them or not wear them, depending on what I was doing that day.

So knowing that the OP isn't required to wear them might play into other people's decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's part of the act of humility - reflecting and remembering the sacrifice and humility that Jesus underwent on the journey to Calvary.

Take heart that you won't be the only one.

And who knows, maybe you'll inspire a stranger to get to church and get ashes too!!

Very true. For me, it's similar to the feeling I have when I'm on my knees taking communion. Really makes me aware of Jesus' sacrifice for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The catholic hater is a troll, a sad little person who needs to be mad at somebody in order to deal with her own issues.

But the three responses to her, so far, have been spot-on, and even a bit funny, given the sad topic of her bigotry.

I am not a troll, and I am not alone in my beliefs. I may "bash" but I truly believe the church is corrupt. I know you disagree with me, and that is your right. How can you explain excommunicating a nun because, on the advice of medical professionals, she approves an abortion for a dying woman? How about excommunicating a mother who obtains an abortion for her pre-teen child, pregnant with twins as a result of incest? How can you justify the archdiocese of Washington DC threatening to pull financial funding for programs that feed poor people and help educate children just because they may have to offer health insurance to a few gay people? How can you explain the obstinate refusal of church hierarchy to make condoms available to AIDS plauged societies in the third world? How can you justify the disgusting cover-up of hundreds, if not thousands, of pedophile priests by church leaders? Shuffling them from church to church, never turing them over to authorities, allowing them to abuse over and over? How can you justify the child abuse perpetrated on innocent children in schools and orphanages in Ireland at the hands of priests and nuns? How can you justify the Pope's recent invitation to return to the fold of a known Holocaust denier?

So before I am called a bigot, let's just get this out there. This very small group of cloistered men, most of whom have never been intimate with a women, or raised a child, are making decisions that women all over the world are supposed to adhere to. Go on and keep going to your church and pretending you aren't supporting the above mentioned things. But seriously, think about it. Noteveryone who criticizes the church is simple minded, or a troll, or out to get you. Some people just believe it is a broken institution.

New poster here. Holy crap, I am picturing you, a mad angry woman sitting at home in her apartment, swilling red wine, with spittle coming out of her mouth because she's so angry about the Catholics (who happen to be one-in-four Americans). Yikes!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The catholic hater is a troll, a sad little person who needs to be mad at somebody in order to deal with her own issues.

But the three responses to her, so far, have been spot-on, and even a bit funny, given the sad topic of her bigotry.

I am not a troll, and I am not alone in my beliefs. I may "bash" but I truly believe the church is corrupt. I know you disagree with me, and that is your right. How can you explain excommunicating a nun because, on the advice of medical professionals, she approves an abortion for a dying woman? How about excommunicating a mother who obtains an abortion for her pre-teen child, pregnant with twins as a result of incest? How can you justify the archdiocese of Washington DC threatening to pull financial funding for programs that feed poor people and help educate children just because they may have to offer health insurance to a few gay people? How can you explain the obstinate refusal of church hierarchy to make condoms available to AIDS plauged societies in the third world? How can you justify the disgusting cover-up of hundreds, if not thousands, of pedophile priests by church leaders? Shuffling them from church to church, never turing them over to authorities, allowing them to abuse over and over? How can you justify the child abuse perpetrated on innocent children in schools and orphanages in Ireland at the hands of priests and nuns? How can you justify the Pope's recent invitation to return to the fold of a known Holocaust denier?

So before I am called a bigot, let's just get this out there. This very small group of cloistered men, most of whom have never been intimate with a women, or raised a child, are making decisions that women all over the world are supposed to adhere to. Go on and keep going to your church and pretending you aren't supporting the above mentioned things. But seriously, think about it. Noteveryone who criticizes the church is simple minded, or a troll, or out to get you. Some people just believe it is a broken institution.

New poster here. Holy crap, I am picturing you, a mad angry woman sitting at home in her apartment, swilling red wine, with spittle coming out of her mouth because she's so angry about the Catholics (who happen to be one-in-four Americans). Yikes!

Whatever...why not address what I wrote rather than try to characterize me as some kind of crazy? I don't drink, by the way. Doesn't some of this make you angry? These are some of the wealthiest and most influential people in the world (the church leadership). How do "normal" Catholics reconcile this with their faith? Do you deny these things have happened?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we didn't used to be closet Christians. The media has driven us into the closet by only reporting on the outrageous and the extremists. Who wants to be associated with that if you are moderate? That said, I will wear my ashes. It is a sign of the season and community. As a Catholic, lately I get depressed by the focus by the hierarchy on abortion, gay rights and immigration. As if there isn't anything else that is important about being Catholic these days. Who are these people? I didn't grow up with this.

I agree! It's so annoying watching these broadcasts because I know that it's a distortion of what it really means to be a Christian.

Yes! Another mainstream/progressive Christian who finds this so sad!

[Anonymous]

What the troll is unable to see, even though several have posted it here, is that there are good things about belonging to the church, in addition to some not-so-good things. Nobody has jumped in to defend the decision about the nun, for example. And pedophile priests are bad. But while she cites some individual examples of bad thins, there are lots of other good things these good catholics are getting from their church and from their faith.

And the clergy's celibacy per se is not something to get all offended about. I can't understand her outrage about that.

Yes, the troll is either simple-minded, or she needs to be mad at something. There's good and bad in everything. To see only the bad is to blind yourself intentionally.

Signed - not a catholic, but somebody who, unlike the troll, can see nuance.

[Anonymous]

Who would come on DCUM to blast somebody else's faith anonymously? A bitter, angry person, that's who. Or a troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What the troll is unable to see, even though several have posted it here, is that there are good things about belonging to the church, in addition to some not-so-good things. Nobody has jumped in to defend the decision about the nun, for example. And pedophile priests are bad. But while she cites some individual examples of bad thins, there are lots of other good things these good catholics are getting from their church and from their faith.

And the clergy's celibacy per se is not something to get all offended about. I can't understand her outrage about that.

Yes, the troll is either simple-minded, or she needs to be mad at something. There's good and bad in everything. To see only the bad is to blind yourself intentionally.

Signed - not a catholic, but somebody who, unlike the troll, can see nuance.

I'm assuming they're homosexual as well? I never hear of any young people other than boys who were molested by Catholic priests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What the troll is unable to see, even though several have posted it here, is that there are good things about belonging to the church, in addition to some not-so-good things. Nobody has jumped in to defend the decision about the nun, for example. And pedophile priests are bad. But while she cites some individual examples of bad thins, there are lots of other good things these good catholics are getting from their church and from their faith.

And the clergy's celibacy per se is not something to get all offended about. I can't understand her outrage about that.

Yes, the troll is either simple-minded, or she needs to be mad at something. There's good and bad in everything. To see only the bad is to blind yourself intentionally.

Signed - not a catholic, but somebody who, unlike the troll, can see nuance.

I am not a troll and I absolutely can see nuance. I never said all Catholics believe these things are ok. But the church leadership is very clear about their beliefs...read the catechism, read their encyclicals. The church isn't a democracy. Laity are not empowered to choose which of these things to believe and which they can dismiss. Catholics are supposed to oppose gay marriage and the church has held so staunchly to that position that they are willing to forgo many of these other "good works" you speak of in order not to have to provide health insurance to the spouse's of gay people that don't even belong to their church! The leadership has become so tied to the opposition to abortion that they have stripped women of their very humanity in many instances (preferring to allow women and fetuses to die rather than allow a termination). They have held steadfastly to their objection of brth control even in societies throughout the world where they have a huge hand in aid but will not supply people or even ok the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. It isn't just small and insignificant things that westerners are permitted to ignore. These things adversely effect the lives of people all over the world all the time. And there is no excuse out there for the insular way the church protected priests who sexually molested children for years. They chose to protect their institution over stopping widespread abuse. How can anyone claim that tha kind of leadership is healthy? No, it is not all bad, and yes the church does good work. But it is fundamentally broken and corrupt in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who would come on DCUM to blast somebody else's faith anonymously? A bitter, angry person, that's who. Or a troll.

Are you serious? Christians and all kinds of people of faith have their beliefs criticized all the time. And has anyone noticed that I'm not criticizing Jesus, the New Testament, the Christian narrative? I am criticizing a human institution full of fallible people who are all quite capable of making a mess of things. Criticizing an organized religion that has one of the largest lobbying efforts on the hill is verboten now? And why would that be?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who would come on DCUM to blast somebody else's faith anonymously? A bitter, angry person, that's who. Or a troll.

Are you serious? Christians and all kinds of people of faith have their beliefs criticized all the time. And has anyone noticed that I'm not criticizing Jesus, the New Testament, the Christian narrative? I am criticizing a human institution full of fallible people who are all quite capable of making a mess of things. Criticizing an organized religion that has one of the largest lobbying efforts on the hill is verboten now? And why would that be?

Tell me, do you spew the same vitriol at Muslims?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the troll is unable to see, even though several have posted it here, is that there are good things about belonging to the church, in addition to some not-so-good things. Nobody has jumped in to defend the decision about the nun, for example. And pedophile priests are bad. But while she cites some individual examples of bad thins, there are lots of other good things these good catholics are getting from their church and from their faith.

And the clergy's celibacy per se is not something to get all offended about. I can't understand her outrage about that.

Yes, the troll is either simple-minded, or she needs to be mad at something. There's good and bad in everything. To see only the bad is to blind yourself intentionally.

Signed - not a catholic, but somebody who, unlike the troll, can see nuance.

I am not a troll and I absolutely can see nuance. I never said all Catholics believe these things are ok. But the church leadership is very clear about their beliefs...read the catechism, read their encyclicals. The church isn't a democracy. Laity are not empowered to choose which of these things to believe and which they can dismiss. Catholics are supposed to oppose gay marriage and the church has held so staunchly to that position that they are willing to forgo many of these other "good works" you speak of in order not to have to provide health insurance to the spouse's of gay people that don't even belong to their church! The leadership has become so tied to the opposition to abortion that they have stripped women of their very humanity in many instances (preferring to allow women and fetuses to die rather than allow a termination). They have held steadfastly to their objection of brth control even in societies throughout the world where they have a huge hand in aid but will not supply people or even ok the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. It isn't just small and insignificant things that westerners are permitted to ignore. These things adversely effect the lives of people all over the world all the time. And there is no excuse out there for the insular way the church protected priests who sexually molested children for years. They chose to protect their institution over stopping widespread abuse. How can anyone claim that tha kind of leadership is healthy? No, it is not all bad, and yes the church does good work. But it is fundamentally broken and corrupt in my opinion.

For years, they also gave protection to countless homosexual priests who were pedophiles as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who would come on DCUM to blast somebody else's faith anonymously? A bitter, angry person, that's who. Or a troll.

Are you serious? Christians and all kinds of people of faith have their beliefs criticized all the time. And has anyone noticed that I'm not criticizing Jesus, the New Testament, the Christian narrative? I am criticizing a human institution full of fallible people who are all quite capable of making a mess of things. Criticizing an organized religion that has one of the largest lobbying efforts on the hill is verboten now? And why would that be?

Tell me, do you spew the same vitriol at Muslims?

I don't know much about Muslims. And how am I spewing vitriol? Are you saying anything I've pointed out is inaccurate? I'm not criticizing Christians or their core beliefs, just the institution of the Catholic church. And yes, there are other churches I'd criticize...scientology, to name one. Perhaps if the Catholic church confined itself to proscribing their rules to Catholics I wouldn't have such an issue with them. But they don't want only Catholic gay people to remain celibate, they want all gay people (even Muslims and Jews and athiests) to follow their rules. And so on and so forth. If the church can lobby congress not to pass health care reform, and to pass the "Defense of Marriage Act," then I think they have not only invited criticism, but also deserve it.