Experience from DMV parents - which school is best for International Relations recruiting/jobs/faculty?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First tier: Tufts and GW

Second tier: American and Middlebury

Forget the rest unless there is something specific that really appeals.

Take advantage of all of the offerings on campus, find internships during the summers and even during the semester, plan for grad school.

I don't think you know Middlebury very well. It is EXCELLENT for econ and international/languages.

I actually know Middlebury extremely well and it is not on the same level for IR and political science as Tufts and GW. Sorry. It sounds like you don’t know those fields very well.

Forgot how many Middlebury boosters are on this forum.

Tell us more about these levels, and what qualifies a school to be on a higher level.

Well, Tufts and GW are consistently ranked in the top 10 of the Inside the Ivory Tower IR rankings for one, while Middlebury doesn’t make most of the lists. Policymakers ranked it 22nd while it didn’t register on the IR faculty or think tankers’ list.

Let’s talk about the programs, though, which are important for OP. GW has 37 taught courses (ie not research seminars/thesis ones) this semester. Tufts is a bit harder to find because they include all of the cross-department courses in their course list, but there are 20-some specific IR courses falling under the political science banner.

Middlebury has nine.

Let’s talk about international econ, since one of the PP’s mentioned econ. GW is a top 15 or so US university in International Finance and Open Economy Macro.

https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.ifn.html
https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.opm.html

The co-director of the international economics program there is the previous Treasury Undersecretary for International Affairs.

Middlebury does not have these things. It’s just not the same experience. That doesn’t mean it’s bad. But no, it’s not on the same level.

You're comparing apples to oranges. GW is much larger than Midd so of course it's going to have more classes, more professors. But a liberal arts college has different advantages that a larger univ would not.

Most people would consider Middlebury to be much more prestigious than GW. But mabye you have some reason to boost GW.

No, no reason to boost any of these schools, just work in this field and wanted to be helpful to OP with honest feedback (unlike the clear Midd boosters). And what people outside of the field think is “more prestigious” is irrelevant. In fact, that typical DCUM private school, rankings-obsessed, choose-the-option-that-impresses-other-private-school-parents-the-most approach is clearly on display on this thread and is leading to bad advice. Yes, GW is not considered as good of a school in many fields; we aren’t talking about those fields.

I agree with you that these schools offer different things. But that’s largely the point. The trade off for the bucolic setting, tiny classes, and close oversight/advising is that you get a much smaller school that offers fewer classes, has less-renowned faculty in the field, is less well-regarded in the field, has smaller career services with fewer connections, and is located in a place that offers fewer opportunities during the school year. OP’s kid should consider all of these things and choose accordingly. But the classic boosting of “this school offers everything and has no downsides” is something OP should see right through.

where did you get that from? i'm not saying one school offers everything and has no downsides. personally, i don't think an undergrad should pick a college solely on a planned major as they may change their mind. the major is very relevant yes, but so is the rest of the school. and like it or not, its prestige is a factor. GW just isn't there with some of the other choice for this kid.

Except if you want prestige in IR, the Inside the Ivory Tower ranking surveys a thousand IR faculty and 600 policymakers and think tankers. Tufts and GW (and even American) have it from this list.

I said earlier the major change argument was fair. But that’s a different argument than “you don’t even know Middlebury” for putting it in a second tier for IR/political science with American, or trying to argue that its IR programs are better. And OP’s kid sounds like he knows what he wants to do. Only OP and the kid can determine whether that is likely to change. For plenty of students, they study exactly what they intend to at the start.

Look I get that you said you're in the IR field, but again you're completely missing this kid is also interested in Econ. Midd is very strong in Econ. That's a factor too.

And you’re missing the point I already made on page 3, which is that the kid is potentially interested in international economics and GW is also very good at that.

I never said Middlebury was bad. It’s just not as strong as two of the other options here for what the kid wants. That’s okay.

You keep pushing GW, a very average school. So, ok, let's set aside Midd for a moment since, as an LAC, it's a different type of experience. You really think GW is a better choice than Tufts?!?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First tier: Tufts and GW

Second tier: American and Middlebury

Forget the rest unless there is something specific that really appeals.

Take advantage of all of the offerings on campus, find internships during the summers and even during the semester, plan for grad school.

I don't think you know Middlebury very well. It is EXCELLENT for econ and international/languages.

I actually know Middlebury extremely well and it is not on the same level for IR and political science as Tufts and GW. Sorry. It sounds like you don’t know those fields very well.

Forgot how many Middlebury boosters are on this forum.

Tell us more about these levels, and what qualifies a school to be on a higher level.

Well, Tufts and GW are consistently ranked in the top 10 of the Inside the Ivory Tower IR rankings for one, while Middlebury doesn’t make most of the lists. Policymakers ranked it 22nd while it didn’t register on the IR faculty or think tankers’ list.

Let’s talk about the programs, though, which are important for OP. GW has 37 taught courses (ie not research seminars/thesis ones) this semester. Tufts is a bit harder to find because they include all of the cross-department courses in their course list, but there are 20-some specific IR courses falling under the political science banner.

Middlebury has nine.

Let’s talk about international econ, since one of the PP’s mentioned econ. GW is a top 15 or so US university in International Finance and Open Economy Macro.

https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.ifn.html
https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.opm.html

The co-director of the international economics program there is the previous Treasury Undersecretary for International Affairs.

Middlebury does not have these things. It’s just not the same experience. That doesn’t mean it’s bad. But no, it’s not on the same level.

You're comparing apples to oranges. GW is much larger than Midd so of course it's going to have more classes, more professors. But a liberal arts college has different advantages that a larger univ would not.

Most people would consider Middlebury to be much more prestigious than GW. But mabye you have some reason to boost GW.

No, no reason to boost any of these schools, just work in this field and wanted to be helpful to OP with honest feedback (unlike the clear Midd boosters). And what people outside of the field think is “more prestigious” is irrelevant. In fact, that typical DCUM private school, rankings-obsessed, choose-the-option-that-impresses-other-private-school-parents-the-most approach is clearly on display on this thread and is leading to bad advice. Yes, GW is not considered as good of a school in many fields; we aren’t talking about those fields.

I agree with you that these schools offer different things. But that’s largely the point. The trade off for the bucolic setting, tiny classes, and close oversight/advising is that you get a much smaller school that offers fewer classes, has less-renowned faculty in the field, is less well-regarded in the field, has smaller career services with fewer connections, and is located in a place that offers fewer opportunities during the school year. OP’s kid should consider all of these things and choose accordingly. But the classic boosting of “this school offers everything and has no downsides” is something OP should see right through.

where did you get that from? i'm not saying one school offers everything and has no downsides. personally, i don't think an undergrad should pick a college solely on a planned major as they may change their mind. the major is very relevant yes, but so is the rest of the school. and like it or not, its prestige is a factor. GW just isn't there with some of the other choice for this kid.

Except if you want prestige in IR, the Inside the Ivory Tower ranking surveys a thousand IR faculty and 600 policymakers and think tankers. Tufts and GW (and even American) have it from this list.

I said earlier the major change argument was fair. But that’s a different argument than “you don’t even know Middlebury” for putting it in a second tier for IR/political science with American, or trying to argue that its IR programs are better. And OP’s kid sounds like he knows what he wants to do. Only OP and the kid can determine whether that is likely to change. For plenty of students, they study exactly what they intend to at the start.

Look I get that you said you're in the IR field, but again you're completely missing this kid is also interested in Econ. Midd is very strong in Econ. That's a factor too.

And you’re missing the point I already made on page 3, which is that the kid is potentially interested in international economics and GW is also very good at that.

I never said Middlebury was bad. It’s just not as strong as two of the other options here for what the kid wants. That’s okay.

You keep pushing GW, a very average school. So, ok, let's set aside Midd for a moment since, as an LAC, it's a different type of experience. You really think GW is a better choice than Tufts?!?

No, I have literally not said that at any point in this conversation. I have always paired GW and Tufts together in this decision. On IR quality there is little difference between the two—look at each program and decide based on what you like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First tier: Tufts and GW

Second tier: American and Middlebury

Forget the rest unless there is something specific that really appeals.

Take advantage of all of the offerings on campus, find internships during the summers and even during the semester, plan for grad school.

I don't think you know Middlebury very well. It is EXCELLENT for econ and international/languages.

I actually know Middlebury extremely well and it is not on the same level for IR and political science as Tufts and GW. Sorry. It sounds like you don’t know those fields very well.

Forgot how many Middlebury boosters are on this forum.

Tell us more about these levels, and what qualifies a school to be on a higher level.

Well, Tufts and GW are consistently ranked in the top 10 of the Inside the Ivory Tower IR rankings for one, while Middlebury doesn’t make most of the lists. Policymakers ranked it 22nd while it didn’t register on the IR faculty or think tankers’ list.

Let’s talk about the programs, though, which are important for OP. GW has 37 taught courses (ie not research seminars/thesis ones) this semester. Tufts is a bit harder to find because they include all of the cross-department courses in their course list, but there are 20-some specific IR courses falling under the political science banner.

Middlebury has nine.

Let’s talk about international econ, since one of the PP’s mentioned econ. GW is a top 15 or so US university in International Finance and Open Economy Macro.

https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.ifn.html
https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.opm.html

The co-director of the international economics program there is the previous Treasury Undersecretary for International Affairs.

Middlebury does not have these things. It’s just not the same experience. That doesn’t mean it’s bad. But no, it’s not on the same level.

You're comparing apples to oranges. GW is much larger than Midd so of course it's going to have more classes, more professors. But a liberal arts college has different advantages that a larger univ would not.

Most people would consider Middlebury to be much more prestigious than GW. But mabye you have some reason to boost GW.

No, no reason to boost any of these schools, just work in this field and wanted to be helpful to OP with honest feedback (unlike the clear Midd boosters). And what people outside of the field think is “more prestigious” is irrelevant. In fact, that typical DCUM private school, rankings-obsessed, choose-the-option-that-impresses-other-private-school-parents-the-most approach is clearly on display on this thread and is leading to bad advice. Yes, GW is not considered as good of a school in many fields; we aren’t talking about those fields.

I agree with you that these schools offer different things. But that’s largely the point. The trade off for the bucolic setting, tiny classes, and close oversight/advising is that you get a much smaller school that offers fewer classes, has less-renowned faculty in the field, is less well-regarded in the field, has smaller career services with fewer connections, and is located in a place that offers fewer opportunities during the school year. OP’s kid should consider all of these things and choose accordingly. But the classic boosting of “this school offers everything and has no downsides” is something OP should see right through.

where did you get that from? i'm not saying one school offers everything and has no downsides. personally, i don't think an undergrad should pick a college solely on a planned major as they may change their mind. the major is very relevant yes, but so is the rest of the school. and like it or not, its prestige is a factor. GW just isn't there with some of the other choice for this kid.

Except if you want prestige in IR, the Inside the Ivory Tower ranking surveys a thousand IR faculty and 600 policymakers and think tankers. Tufts and GW (and even American) have it from this list.

I said earlier the major change argument was fair. But that’s a different argument than “you don’t even know Middlebury” for putting it in a second tier for IR/political science with American, or trying to argue that its IR programs are better. And OP’s kid sounds like he knows what he wants to do. Only OP and the kid can determine whether that is likely to change. For plenty of students, they study exactly what they intend to at the start.

Look I get that you said you're in the IR field, but again you're completely missing this kid is also interested in Econ. Midd is very strong in Econ. That's a factor too.

And you’re missing the point I already made on page 3, which is that the kid is potentially interested in international economics and GW is also very good at that.

I never said Middlebury was bad. It’s just not as strong as two of the other options here for what the kid wants. That’s okay.

You keep pushing GW, a very average school. So, ok, let's set aside Midd for a moment since, as an LAC, it's a different type of experience. You really think GW is a better choice than Tufts?!?

No, I have literally not said that at any point in this conversation. I have always paired GW and Tufts together in this decision. On IR quality there is little difference between the two—look at each program and decide based on what you like.

I would add that I find 17:54’s summary on the previous page to be pretty accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First tier: Tufts and GW

Second tier: American and Middlebury

Forget the rest unless there is something specific that really appeals.

Take advantage of all of the offerings on campus, find internships during the summers and even during the semester, plan for grad school.

I don't think you know Middlebury very well. It is EXCELLENT for econ and international/languages.

I actually know Middlebury extremely well and it is not on the same level for IR and political science as Tufts and GW. Sorry. It sounds like you don’t know those fields very well.

Forgot how many Middlebury boosters are on this forum.

Tell us more about these levels, and what qualifies a school to be on a higher level.

Well, Tufts and GW are consistently ranked in the top 10 of the Inside the Ivory Tower IR rankings for one, while Middlebury doesn’t make most of the lists. Policymakers ranked it 22nd while it didn’t register on the IR faculty or think tankers’ list.

Let’s talk about the programs, though, which are important for OP. GW has 37 taught courses (ie not research seminars/thesis ones) this semester. Tufts is a bit harder to find because they include all of the cross-department courses in their course list, but there are 20-some specific IR courses falling under the political science banner.

Middlebury has nine.

Let’s talk about international econ, since one of the PP’s mentioned econ. GW is a top 15 or so US university in International Finance and Open Economy Macro.

https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.ifn.html
https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.opm.html

The co-director of the international economics program there is the previous Treasury Undersecretary for International Affairs.

Middlebury does not have these things. It’s just not the same experience. That doesn’t mean it’s bad. But no, it’s not on the same level.

You're comparing apples to oranges. GW is much larger than Midd so of course it's going to have more classes, more professors. But a liberal arts college has different advantages that a larger univ would not.

Most people would consider Middlebury to be much more prestigious than GW. But mabye you have some reason to boost GW.

No, no reason to boost any of these schools, just work in this field and wanted to be helpful to OP with honest feedback (unlike the clear Midd boosters). And what people outside of the field think is “more prestigious” is irrelevant. In fact, that typical DCUM private school, rankings-obsessed, choose-the-option-that-impresses-other-private-school-parents-the-most approach is clearly on display on this thread and is leading to bad advice. Yes, GW is not considered as good of a school in many fields; we aren’t talking about those fields.

I agree with you that these schools offer different things. But that’s largely the point. The trade off for the bucolic setting, tiny classes, and close oversight/advising is that you get a much smaller school that offers fewer classes, has less-renowned faculty in the field, is less well-regarded in the field, has smaller career services with fewer connections, and is located in a place that offers fewer opportunities during the school year. OP’s kid should consider all of these things and choose accordingly. But the classic boosting of “this school offers everything and has no downsides” is something OP should see right through.

where did you get that from? i'm not saying one school offers everything and has no downsides. personally, i don't think an undergrad should pick a college solely on a planned major as they may change their mind. the major is very relevant yes, but so is the rest of the school. and like it or not, its prestige is a factor. GW just isn't there with some of the other choice for this kid.

Except if you want prestige in IR, the Inside the Ivory Tower ranking surveys a thousand IR faculty and 600 policymakers and think tankers. Tufts and GW (and even American) have it from this list.

I said earlier the major change argument was fair. But that’s a different argument than “you don’t even know Middlebury” for putting it in a second tier for IR/political science with American, or trying to argue that its IR programs are better. And OP’s kid sounds like he knows what he wants to do. Only OP and the kid can determine whether that is likely to change. For plenty of students, they study exactly what they intend to at the start.

Look I get that you said you're in the IR field, but again you're completely missing this kid is also interested in Econ. Midd is very strong in Econ. That's a factor too.

And you’re missing the point I already made on page 3, which is that the kid is potentially interested in international economics and GW is also very good at that.

I never said Middlebury was bad. It’s just not as strong as two of the other options here for what the kid wants. That’s okay.

You keep pushing GW, a very average school. So, ok, let's set aside Midd for a moment since, as an LAC, it's a different type of experience. You really think GW is a better choice than Tufts?!?

DP. For IR, the Elliot School at GW is really good. Like, one of the best. Among this students choices, it really should be between GW and Tufts, which is also good.

[Anonymous]

FYI the Foreign Service exam is back to strictly objective/LSAT type testing.

If your kid does well with that kind of testing, it will be more valuable than the university they attend.

[Anonymous]

What kind of entry level jobs can a IR college grad get - without a masters? And does the undergraduate degree really matter that much to getting that job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What kind of entry level jobs can a IR college grad get - without a masters? And does the undergraduate degree really matter that much to getting that job?

Assume you mean what kind of IR jobs. Plenty of kids graduate and go off and do unrelated things.

Some stuff in intel will hire. Sanctions world too. Some agencies have fellowships for undergrads that want a few years of experience before grad school. The Hill hires people willing to start at the bottom doing grunt work if you can find your way in. Some think tanks have research assistant or program assistant positions. Associations will often hire similarly but there aren’t a ton in the IR space.

I don’t think the undergraduate degree matters that much from a name perspective, but I would very much say some schools are more plugged in to some of these things than others. And location helps a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of entry level jobs can a IR college grad get - without a masters? And does the undergraduate degree really matter that much to getting that job?

Assume you mean what kind of IR jobs. Plenty of kids graduate and go off and do unrelated things.

Some stuff in intel will hire. Sanctions world too. Some agencies have fellowships for undergrads that want a few years of experience before grad school. The Hill hires people willing to start at the bottom doing grunt work if you can find your way in. Some think tanks have research assistant or program assistant positions. Associations will often hire similarly but there aren’t a ton in the IR space.

I don’t think the undergraduate degree matters that much from a name perspective, but I would very much say some schools are more plugged in to some of these things than others. And location helps a lot.

Would also add Peace Corps is a popular option.

[Anonymous]

While about some public schools ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:While about some public schools ?

My DC is a National Security and Foreign Affairs major at Virginia Tech, minoring in a language. Excellent program and opportunities, studied abroad twice, interned, and received a full-time job offer for after graduation. Can't recommend it highly enough.

[Anonymous]

What do you mean be “a career in IR?” There are so many jobs in this space.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:While about some public schools ?

Some of the typical top publics have good programs - Cal and Michigan in particular. UVA and W&M lean on their political science strengths and proximity to DC (including many students from the area) to place pretty well. I don’t think much of UMD’s program but they are active in getting kids jobs during the semester. There are some schools that punch above their weight - UC San Diego in particular has one of the best public school programs, including in international economics. Others are newer, like the Hamilton Lugar school at Indiana but which lean on its traditional strengths in political science and, especially, language and area studies (Indiana has offered language and regional studies programs that many schools abandoned or never offered).

[Anonymous]

Thank you so much for all of your detailed perspectives and insights! I am the OP and I have read every comment and shared this thread also with my family. We were in the middle of visiting, attending admit days and vetting these schools one more time when I made my post.

After traveling to visit or revisit these campuses, and talking to students and parents at length, and consulting alums, our son has made his decision. He has decided on Tufts! He is so excited, he loved the community of students in addition to academics, sat in on a class, spoke with alums in addition to research my husband and I were doing simultaneously and absolutely loves the location. We feel very satisfied he has made the right choice and fit for him.

Thank you everybody! This board is so helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you so much for all of your detailed perspectives and insights! I am the OP and I have read every comment and shared this thread also with my family. We were in the middle of visiting, attending admit days and vetting these schools one more time when I made my post.

After traveling to visit or revisit these campuses, and talking to students and parents at length, and consulting alums, our son has made his decision. He has decided on Tufts! He is so excited, he loved the community of students in addition to academics, sat in on a class, spoke with alums in addition to research my husband and I were doing simultaneously and absolutely loves the location. We feel very satisfied he has made the right choice and fit for him.

Thank you everybody! This board is so helpful.

congrats, OP! that's great news. I hope your son has a wonderful experience at Tufts!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you so much for all of your detailed perspectives and insights! I am the OP and I have read every comment and shared this thread also with my family. We were in the middle of visiting, attending admit days and vetting these schools one more time when I made my post.

After traveling to visit or revisit these campuses, and talking to students and parents at length, and consulting alums, our son has made his decision. He has decided on Tufts! He is so excited, he loved the community of students in addition to academics, sat in on a class, spoke with alums in addition to research my husband and I were doing simultaneously and absolutely loves the location. We feel very satisfied he has made the right choice and fit for him.

Thank you everybody! This board is so helpful.

Congratulations to your son! Just coming to the discussion but as a former Foreign Service Officer (US diplomatic service), I would have said Tufts is the best school among your son’s choices. It makes a big difference to have the Fletcher School of Diplomacy there. I did not attend Tufts, but it was one of the programs whose graduates I respected.