Algebra 1 6th Grade 26-27

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had to make this decision twice with my current ninth grader and sixth grader. And speaking to various middle school math teachers, they all agreed that doing algebra and sixth or even seventh grade is not a great idea. The issue so much is not algebra one, but that young brains are not developed enough for the abstract concepts in algebra II.

Pre-algebra teaches key concepts not offered in math 7H. They have changed all the naming conventions for the math classes, but there is a gap if you don't take pre-algebra.

My eldest took algebra honors in eighth grade and is taking geometry honors in ninth. As in both. He says it's a touch easy, but that's okay because it allows him to focus on the humanities classes which are harder for him.

Good grief! There are plenty of young brains that are perfectly developed and ready for this acceleration. Brains don't "age" the way you seem to think. The real issues for acceleration are that the kid may not have enough natural aptitude in math, the kid may have foundational holes, or the kid might not even like math that much.

My kid sailed through algebra I in 4th, Algebra II in 6th, and AP Calculus in 8th with zero issues. I'll have to go back and tell him that his brain wasn't "old" enough to handle the abstractions.

Also, forgot to add:
We should be talking about "young brains" that are 99th percentile +, so none of the conventional rules apply. Arguments about brains being "too young" or "too undeveloped" fly right out the window when you're talking about gifted children.

[Anonymous]

Go for it. It is easier to get A for math HN courses taken before your kids get in high school. The math HNs offered in middle school are much less rigorous compare with the same courses offered in the high schoos. Algebra HN in 6 grade? I bet it'll be a even bigger water-down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Go for it. It is easier to get A for math HN courses taken before your kids get in high school. The math HNs offered in middle school are much less rigorous compare with the same courses offered in the high schoos. Algebra HN in 6 grade? I bet it'll be an even bigger water-down.

To be fair, even the high school courses are pretty watered down. Advanced 6th graders would likely learn much more if they took AoPS pre-algebra than they would in a high school level FCPS Honors Algebra class. I wish FCPS would do something akin to AoPS courses to add rigor without necessarily over-accelerating.

[Anonymous]

Some y'all are just insane for real. DS is a math major at Wesleyan and didn't Algebra 1 until 8th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some y'all are just insane for real. DS is a math major at Wesleyan and didn't Algebra 1 until 8th grade.

Honestly, that is great. But DS is in Geometry H as an 8th grader and has never been challenged in math at school. I think he would have given up on math as a subject he enjoys if we had not found math competitions for him. I would have appreciated Algebra in 6th because it might have pushed him a bit.

Different kids are ready for different material. Not everyone is all about accelerating because it will help with college or TJ, I want my kid to be challenged in school.

[Anonymous]

OP I'd ask your school if they adapted the 5th grade AAP math curriculum this year to provide better prep for 6th grade Algebra. For the pilot students this year, many of them did fine but also had some gaps in foundational areas because 5th grade last year didn't cover all the pre-Algebra concepts (because the 6th grade program wasn't even announced until very late last year, actually over the summer IIRC?)... basing that off convo with teacher and my kid's own experience. I'm sure experiences vary, but this issue is something I'd check on with your school.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Bored or great at memorizing procedures. If you look at FCPS longitudinal data regarding student enrollment in mathematics, far too many students who accelerate and take Algebra earlier than 8th grade fall back and take a less rigorous path once they reach Algebra 2. But go ahead and tell me “not your child”. Hyper-acceleration in mathematics is detrimental to students, but apparently FCPS leadership doesn’t see it this way.

Can you share a link to this? Or is this internal info only?

The data is internal, but I am sure it can be acquired through FOIA. Decisions are being made in FCPS without taking this data into account.

Since you're privy to the information: What does this less rigorous path look like? Is it Honors Algebra I in 7th, Honors Geometry in 8th, regular or Honors Algebra II in 9th, regular pre-calculus in 10th, calculus AB in 11th, and then something else? Or are they not taking calculus at all? Did they have bad grades in Algebra II? What percent of the kids in the 7th grade algebra I cohort didn't take Calculus BC in 11th grade?

Teachers on the board have said that they had plenty of 9th graders is A2H who earned Cs and had started the class having earned Bs and Cs in A1H and Geometry. People want to dismiss those accounts but they are out there.

But this is a meaningless anecdote if you don't quantify how many is "plenty." Are these teachers saying that half of their 9th grade A2H students are getting Cs and did throughout? 25%? 10%? What percent are struggling? Also, what percent have earned As throughout? What percent took Calc BC in 11th and earned As in every math class through Calculus?

Then, the next obvious question is what FCPS should do with any of this data. If some small fraction of the accelerated kids are struggling, but another fraction is knocking it out of the park, would you restrict access to everyone? Would you gatekeep the accelerated track more strongly (and by doing so prevent some kids who would have been successful from accessing the acceleration)? No matter how you try to spin things, a lot of kids are perfectly successful on the accelerated track. Should they be denied that opportunity because some kids aren't ready?

IME once kids are tracked to algebra 1 honors they stay honors unless they get a D or F. The information requires some digging (there’s not a report I can pull easily for all kids in my class to see prior math grades that I’m aware of), but when I’ve gone looking in past years it feels like 60% of honors algebra 2 kids had As and Bs in algebra 1 honors/geometry honors, and 20% had Cs. (The desire to remain with cohort of peers is strong) The other 20% are kids who try to jump up from regular geometry to algebra 2 honors, and almost universally struggle to get a B or a C at the honors level, even with As in gen ed. It is a rare child who can make that jump and maintain a A. Frequently after first semester they drop back down due to Ds and Fs.

This year I only have gen ed algebra 2, but I have a handful of freshmen in the class. They all struggled with honors geometry (Cs and Ds) and so came back to gen ed for 9th grade. I was surprised there was no desire to expunge, but all families stated they didn’t want to redo geometry.

This is a pretty well regarded high school.

Then it sounds like the problem is not allowing for the acceleration, but rather allowing kids to remain in honors or on an accelerated track when the placement clearly isn't appropriate. A simple solution would be to require a retake of an accelerated class if the kid earned a C or lower. They could additionally require a B in a previous honors class to take it the following year, or an A plus teacher approval to jump from regular to honors. None of this has anything to do with allowing for Algebra in 7th or 6th grade.

Someone (you?) posted that far too many kids who take Algebra before 8th grade fall back into a less rigorous path after they reach Algebra 2. The implication was that school should be limiting acceleration much more than it already is. But no one has provided any numbers about the percent of kids in the Algebra cohort who are falling back. If a substantial number of kids are successful on the accelerated track, why hold them back because some other kids are unready?

Also to add: falling back to the less rigorous path is no worse than having been on the less rigorous path since the beginning. It can be better, since e.g. if a kid is great in algebra but bad in geometry, if they start accelerated and then drop down they get to retake geometry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had to make this decision twice with my current ninth grader and sixth grader. And speaking to various middle school math teachers, they all agreed that doing algebra and sixth or even seventh grade is not a great idea. The issue so much is not algebra one, but that young brains are not developed enough for the abstract concepts in algebra II.

Pre-algebra teaches key concepts not offered in math 7H. They have changed all the naming conventions for the math classes, but there is a gap if you don't take pre-algebra.

My eldest took algebra honors in eighth grade and is taking geometry honors in ninth. As in both. He says it's a touch easy, but that's okay because it allows him to focus on the humanities classes which are harder for him.

Good grief! There are plenty of young brains that are perfectly developed and ready for this acceleration. Brains don't "age" the way you seem to think. The real issues for acceleration are that the kid may not have enough natural aptitude in math, the kid may have foundational holes, or the kid might not even like math that much.

My kid sailed through algebra I in 4th, Algebra II in 6th, and AP Calculus in 8th with zero issues. I'll have to go back and tell him that his brain wasn't "old" enough to handle the abstractions.

Which school did he go to where 4th graders took high school algebra 1 for credit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some y'all are just insane for real. DS is a math major at Wesleyan and didn't Algebra 1 until 8th grade.

Why not? He's clearly capable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some y'all are just insane for real. DS is a math major at Wesleyan and didn't Algebra 1 until 8th grade.

Why not? He's clearly capable.

You don’t know where he as in 6th grade. Maybe he wasn’t interested in math then and did the work assigned but wasn’t interested in really diving in. Maybe his parents didn’t think that he needed to take college level math as a senior in HS.

Algebra 1 in 8th grade is accelerated in most parts of the country, FCPS is very much an exception to the rule. FCPS allows kids to take Algebra sooner than the vast majority of the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I'd ask your school if they adapted the 5th grade AAP math curriculum this year to provide better prep for 6th grade Algebra. For the pilot students this year, many of them did fine but also had some gaps in foundational areas because 5th grade last year didn't cover all the pre-Algebra concepts (because the 6th grade program wasn't even announced until very late last year, actually over the summer IIRC?)... basing that off convo with teacher and my kid's own experience. I'm sure experiences vary, but this issue is something I'd check on with your school.

Not OP but They did not adapt the 5th grade curriculum this year. That would’ve made too much sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some y'all are just insane for real. DS is a math major at Wesleyan and didn't Algebra 1 until 8th grade.

Why not? He's clearly capable.

Some kids are also capable of driving (can handle the mechanics of driving), but that doesn’t make it right to do so (not ready to for all the decision making a driver has to do). Similarly, with taking Algebra so early.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some y'all are just insane for real. DS is a math major at Wesleyan and didn't Algebra 1 until 8th grade.

Why not? He's clearly capable.

Some kids are also capable of driving (can handle the mechanics of driving), but that doesn’t make it right to do so (not ready to for all the decision making a driver has to do). Similarly, with taking Algebra so early.

There's a legal age requirement for driving, but not algebra. Bad analogy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've had to make this decision twice with my current ninth grader and sixth grader. And speaking to various middle school math teachers, they all agreed that doing algebra and sixth or even seventh grade is not a great idea. The issue so much is not algebra one, but that young brains are not developed enough for the abstract concepts in algebra II.

Pre-algebra teaches key concepts not offered in math 7H. They have changed all the naming conventions for the math classes, but there is a gap if you don't take pre-algebra.

My eldest took algebra honors in eighth grade and is taking geometry honors in ninth. As in both. He says it's a touch easy, but that's okay because it allows him to focus on the humanities classes which are harder for him.

Good grief! There are plenty of young brains that are perfectly developed and ready for this acceleration. Brains don't "age" the way you seem to think. The real issues for acceleration are that the kid may not have enough natural aptitude in math, the kid may have foundational holes, or the kid might not even like math that much.

My kid sailed through algebra I in 4th, Algebra II in 6th, and AP Calculus in 8th with zero issues. I'll have to go back and tell him that his brain wasn't "old" enough to handle the abstractions.

Also, forgot to add:
We should be talking about "young brains" that are 99th percentile +, so none of the conventional rules apply. Arguments about brains being "too young" or "too undeveloped" fly right out the window when you're talking about gifted children.

Except most of these kids in AAP/advanced math are more like 50th-75th percentile.

[Anonymous]

DP but how did this work this year/how is it going to work next year? Is it all or nothing - all of AAP does Algebra? Or do they pull some of the kids out?