The ethics of price gauging special needs families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a professional who serves kids with disabilities. I do follow through, but I can't always achieve the outcome parents want, and that doesn't mean they don't have to pay. I could make a lot more with my same degree and training if I did other work. I do this work because it matters. I often get asked to do the work for free and I have to say no because I have bills to pay too. I'm always slightly offended when people who can pay ask this. Do they work for free? No. Why do they expect me to?

It is your job to communicate to the parents what the reasonable goals are and the progress.

what makes you think i don't do this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

[Anonymous]

With a soon to be 24 year old, I look back on all these things we tried, and the most important thing was time.

Most of the therapies had marginal effect. Lindamood Bell was the exception, and the coaching we got from Vanderbilt speech and language professionals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With a soon to be 24 year old, I look back on all these things we tried, and the most important thing was time.

Most of the therapies had marginal effect. Lindamood Bell was the exception, and the coaching we got from Vanderbilt speech and language professionals.

but how do you know what would have happened without therapies? how can you separate out impact of time vs therapy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With a soon to be 24 year old, I look back on all these things we tried, and the most important thing was time.

Most of the therapies had marginal effect. Lindamood Bell was the exception, and the coaching we got from Vanderbilt speech and language professionals.

but how do you know what would have happened without therapies? how can you separate out impact of time vs therapy?

Because during the breaks he gained skills as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

EXACTLY! Most are truly awful and most go into the gielf because they, too, have ADHD, etc., and "want to help". I can't tell you how many weirdos we tried to hire for our SN kids.

On the other hand, you only want a lawyer if you have tried and tried and are getting nowhre or want to sue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

EXACTLY! Most are truly awful and most go into the gielf because they, too, have ADHD, etc., and "want to help". I can't tell you how many weirdos we tried to hire for our SN kids.

On the other hand, you only want a lawyer if you have tried and tried and are getting nowhre or want to sue.

No, this is not true. A good lawyer can help you avoid needing to sue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

Well almost certainly less money than a lawyer’s hourly fees … I am a lawyer so I was totally sure of my approach. The advocate is there because she understands schools and special ed. Those are not legal skills. I also was quickly able to see that she understood how to navigate the basic procedural steps well enough. You don’t hire a lawyer to talk to teachers. You hire a lawyer when you think litigation is on the horizon- which hopefully with a good advocate would not happen. If we had gotten to the pint of an IEP denial, LRE hearing, or I wanted to privately place then sue for tuition, then yes, I would have hired a lawyer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

EXACTLY! Most are truly awful and most go into the gielf because they, too, have ADHD, etc., and "want to help". I can't tell you how many weirdos we tried to hire for our SN kids.

On the other hand, you only want a lawyer if you have tried and tried and are getting nowhre or want to sue.

No, this is not true. A good lawyer can help you avoid needing to sue.

No they can’t. They are much more likely to put things on an adversarial footing. They also are not professional educators or mental health professionals and haven’t been immersed in school culture. My advocate was immensely helpful in making key suggestions based on what she knew could be feasible due to her experience; and she was super calm and collaborative but also assertive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

EXACTLY! Most are truly awful and most go into the gielf because they, too, have ADHD, etc., and "want to help". I can't tell you how many weirdos we tried to hire for our SN kids.

On the other hand, you only want a lawyer if you have tried and tried and are getting nowhre or want to sue.

This is the PP who had the great non-lawyer advocate. yes, I will grant you that there are a lot of weirdos of that type and the barrier is lower to be an “advocate” than a lawyer. OTOH in my personal life I have also hired a lawyer who took my retainer for a simple matter and then totally ghosted me! You have to be a good consumer regardless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

Well almost certainly less money than a lawyer’s hourly fees … I am a lawyer so I was totally sure of my approach. The advocate is there because she understands schools and special ed. Those are not legal skills. I also was quickly able to see that she understood how to navigate the basic procedural steps well enough. You don’t hire a lawyer to talk to teachers. You hire a lawyer when you think litigation is on the horizon- which hopefully with a good advocate would not happen. If we had gotten to the pint of an IEP denial, LRE hearing, or I wanted to privately place then sue for tuition, then yes, I would have hired a lawyer.

A special ed lawyer also understands schools and special ed and can help with everything an advocate can (plus not all advocates actually understand schools or special ed. Plus lawyers can advise you on your child's legal rights and help you protect them. Advocates can't and should not be advising parents on the law; so many think they know the law but they don't.

You should not just hire a lawyer when you think litigation is on the horizon, that's far too late.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

EXACTLY! Most are truly awful and most go into the gielf because they, too, have ADHD, etc., and "want to help". I can't tell you how many weirdos we tried to hire for our SN kids.

On the other hand, you only want a lawyer if you have tried and tried and are getting nowhre or want to sue.

No, this is not true. A good lawyer can help you avoid needing to sue.

No they can’t. They are much more likely to put things on an adversarial footing. They also are not professional educators or mental health professionals and haven’t been immersed in school culture. My advocate was immensely helpful in making key suggestions based on what she knew could be feasible due to her experience; and she was super calm and collaborative but also assertive.

A lot of advocates are not professional educators or mental health professionals either. Many have never been immersed in school culture. Special ed attorneys often have years of experience dealing with schools. They can also be super calm and collaborative but also assertive. Plus they know the law - which is really necessary in this area. Without that, you're losing a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a school psychologist and have a son with special needs. The research on so many types of therapies is really lacking.

When he was turning three and really needed speech therapy I really looked into the research. Ethically they can't take identical twins and give one twin speech therapy and the other twin is the control, which would be the best type of study to see if the twin who receives therapy ends up being better off. The same with occupational therapy.

In my experience (which really isn't proof of anything, of course) when there is a specific targeted issue like an articulation disorder or producing sounds that can be measured pretty well then speech therapy seems to be effective.

If it is a language issue then working for 30 minutes or 60 minutes once a week really just doesn't seem to be effective. There are around 100 hours in a week that kids are awake. So that is really working on something intently 1% of the time. So you can take your child to speech therapy for language issues for years and continue to pay but how much is it really doing.

I think as a parent if I am spending money and time to get my chid therapy, then I am going to have a tendency to think that is what is making my child better over the course of time and not just they are developing as they get older. So providers take advantage of this.

I agree to some extent, as an SLP. Young children can make natural gains from exposure, maturing, and therapy- i have a few students who I’m quite sure could have aged out of developmental delays without my support. But they also did not meet IDEA disability criteria, and were somehow found eligible anyway. It can be hard to tell the difference.

However, progress does not come from just 30-60 minutes a week of therapy. Interventions have to be carried over into other settings, and targets should be modeled by other adults in the child’s life. Sadly this rarely happens- providers don’t always share this information or come up with strategies that are easy for teachers and parents to implement. There is actually lots of new research on language intervention and therapy for language disorders is effective if implemented correctly. And the child should also be able to meaningfully participate in therapy.

Speech therapists are worth their weight in gold, IMO. At least the good ones, although I don't have experience with a bad one. I don't know about "language delays" per se, but with speech issues, plenty. Lisps, W/R confusion, etc. I'm often shocked by the number of parents who think it's cute (and it is when they're toddlers) and don't do anything about it. It's hard on those kids when they don't outgrow and much harder to correct in later years.

And before people start saying I have no idea what people are/aren't doing, I'm thinking specifically of a few people I know who didn't do anything because they did think it was cute.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the poster mentioning advocates as something to be wary of. In my experience, they are the biggest price gougers and some of the least ethical operators in the field. Some of them clearly want to earn their hourly pay rate by dragging out meetings endlessly, arguing with the school, and obtaining no meaningful benefit for your child. Advocates CAN help in some cases, usually when it is clear cut that your child is being denied access to something that they are obviously entitled to (i.e the school won't even evaluate them for an IEP and they are four grade levels behind). However, a lot of the time, they argue for small word changes in the goals that are antagonistic and change absolutely nothing about the services. Or, they argue for something knowing full well it won't be granted given their own knowledge of the system, charging you for their time instead of being honest about what is realistic in your child's case. In the worst cases, they don't even know the child they are arguing for and don't have expertise in that particular disability. I've worked with many advocates and only a few are truly ethical operators, in my opinion.

Can you recommend a good one or say who to stay away from?

You will be much better off with a a special ed attorney instead of an advocate

My experience was the opposite. If you are not planning to sue you don’t need a lawyer.

advocates are not a regulated field, a lot of them do not know what they are doing. i have seen so much damage done. and wasted $.

EXACTLY! Most are truly awful and most go into the gielf because they, too, have ADHD, etc., and "want to help". I can't tell you how many weirdos we tried to hire for our SN kids.

On the other hand, you only want a lawyer if you have tried and tried and are getting nowhre or want to sue.

No, this is not true. A good lawyer can help you avoid needing to sue.

No they can’t. They are much more likely to put things on an adversarial footing. They also are not professional educators or mental health professionals and haven’t been immersed in school culture. My advocate was immensely helpful in making key suggestions based on what she knew could be feasible due to her experience; and she was super calm and collaborative but also assertive.

A lot of advocates are not professional educators or mental health professionals either. Many have never been immersed in school culture. Special ed attorneys often have years of experience dealing with schools. They can also be super calm and collaborative but also assertive. Plus they know the law - which is really necessary in this area. Without that, you're losing a lot.

If you hire one without asking for qualifications then that's on you. Our advocate got us a publicly funded private placement in third grade. Kid is now in 10th. At $50,000 a year that's some ROI.