Easier for girls to get into top engineering schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an MIT alum interviewer, let me shed some light on the MYTH of easier admittance for girls.

Yes, a higher % of female applicants gain admission. What you don't see is the noticeable fraction of unqualified applicants (e.g., kids who like video games and are encouraged by clueless relatives to apply to MIT). This misguided group is virtually all male. Bizarre phenomenon.

Those video game males are bottom applicants and irrelevant. What matters is the top 2% of applicants. Top 2% of male applicants are extremely strong at math. Look at who is winning the hardest math and programming competitions.

You are missing the point. DP. PP was explaining that the whole pool is different. Admitting 2% of the male applicants when a significant portion of them are noticeably unqualified, yet admitting 3% of the female pool when almost none are unqualified means the admission rates of the qualified males v females is about the same, depending on the size of the unqualified male subset. The "listed" % admission for male v female does not tell the story.
PP is not the first one I have heard explain the same, and it correlates with the local stem magnet. About 1/3 are females. They apply in 8th. The male v female SAT range total is the same (median is 1500 so it is a highly skewed group of students, they are all very intelligent). The females dominate the top 25%, which is announced senior year.

You say that the male and female median SAT is the same and also that females dominate the top 25% of a stem magnet school. But those facts don't support the conclusion that there are more females in the top 2-3% of stem students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_International_Mathematical_Olympiad_participants

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My girls are in public school as well. I would say that there is an advantage in that they stand out from their peers. At my kids' high school, only 5 out of 25 kids taking AP Physics C are girls. That said, I think there are a lot of great schools for engineering and you're DD will be fine if they apply widely. There are many excellent programs, including Olin, Harvey Mudd, UIUC, Purdue.

My DD has a 4.0 UW and 1550+ and 7 AP scores (taking 6 more this year) and her CC says that UMich OOS, UVA OOS, UCB OOS and UCLA OOS are all targets, not safeties.

UMich, UVA, UCB, UCLA are reaches for all applicants, not targets.

No, they are not, it depends on high school. For top males and females at our high school as well as the neighboring school, Umich UCB UCLA are targets . UVA is instate and is a safety for the very top. Every kid in the top 5% for more than 6 years has gotten into UVA, and all but one in the top 10%. 30-40% of applicants in the top5% get in to the other three OOS. They are targets. Certain ivies ED (cornell, columbia) in the past 2 cycles are targets for the very top. The very top usually try scea though and wait for RD for other ivies.

No normal person defines schools with <10% acceptance rates as targets... except here at DCUM.

Huh, only UCLA here has an acceptance rate below 10%. Umich OOS is around 17-18% and UVA was 22% (OOS 12.5%)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an MIT alum interviewer, let me shed some light on the MYTH of easier admittance for girls.

Yes, a higher % of female applicants gain admission. What you don't see is the noticeable fraction of unqualified applicants (e.g., kids who like video games and are encouraged by clueless relatives to apply to MIT). This misguided group is virtually all male. Bizarre phenomenon.

Those video game males are bottom applicants and irrelevant. What matters is the top 2% of applicants. Top 2% of male applicants are extremely strong at math. Look at who is winning the hardest math and programming competitions.

You are missing the point. DP. PP was explaining that the whole pool is different. Admitting 2% of the male applicants when a significant portion of them are noticeably unqualified, yet admitting 3% of the female pool when almost none are unqualified means the admission rates of the qualified males v females is about the same, depending on the size of the unqualified male subset. The "listed" % admission for male v female does not tell the story.
PP is not the first one I have heard explain the same, and it correlates with the local stem magnet. About 1/3 are females. They apply in 8th. The male v female SAT range total is the same (median is 1500 so it is a highly skewed group of students, they are all very intelligent). The females dominate the top 25%, which is announced senior year.

You say that the male and female median SAT is the same and also that females dominate the top 25% of a stem magnet school. But those facts don't support the conclusion that there are more females in the top 2-3% of stem students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_International_Mathematical_Olympiad_participants

The male dominance of children's math competitions doesn't necessarily relate directly to "top STEM students" in college. As I understand it, a lot of arcane coaching goes into becoming one of these prodigies. And I bet home geography (do you live near tutors and teams) plays a big role. Then on top you get gender and racial effects from people deciding whether an activity is of interest to them based on norms and visible participation.

I view these math competitions as essentially pretty esoteric. Like being an Olympic class javelin thrower. There's a lot to groundbreaking STEM beyond cracking crazy math problems. I know the profs at Caltech and MIT really want these kids to attend. But frankly that might almost just be affinity bias because they are similar types of math geeks.

When I read this thread, and see how common women are getting in the programs, it makes me believe that you could, in the right environment, find and grow female talent to be competitive at these competitions. But they'd have to be nurtured and encouraged and actually care about participating.

And, in the current environment, a lot of the girls in STEM programs for kids are going away or morphing into.open access.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here- so UVA doesn’t give any merit aid? What about Michigan? CMU? Duke?

No, no, no, yes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So basically its not easier for girls unless you are a URM? Same as boys? What is the general consensus

It is easier for girls, but the ease factor is higher for the most selective schools, so there really aren't top schools that are easy for girls to get into engineering, only less extremely selective thang for boys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an MIT alum interviewer, let me shed some light on the MYTH of easier admittance for girls.

Yes, a higher % of female applicants gain admission. What you don't see is the noticeable fraction of unqualified applicants (e.g., kids who like video games and are encouraged by clueless relatives to apply to MIT). This misguided group is virtually all male. Bizarre phenomenon.

Those video game males are bottom applicants and irrelevant. What matters is the top 2% of applicants. Top 2% of male applicants are extremely strong at math. Look at who is winning the hardest math and programming competitions.

You are missing the point. DP. PP was explaining that the whole pool is different. Admitting 2% of the male applicants when a significant portion of them are noticeably unqualified, yet admitting 3% of the female pool when almost none are unqualified means the admission rates of the qualified males v females is about the same, depending on the size of the unqualified male subset. The "listed" % admission for male v female does not tell the story.
PP is not the first one I have heard explain the same, and it correlates with the local stem magnet. About 1/3 are females. They apply in 8th. The male v female SAT range total is the same (median is 1500 so it is a highly skewed group of students, they are all very intelligent). The females dominate the top 25%, which is announced senior year.

You say that the male and female median SAT is the same and also that females dominate the top 25% of a stem magnet school. But those facts don't support the conclusion that there are more females in the top 2-3% of stem students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_International_Mathematical_Olympiad_participants

The male dominance of children's math competitions doesn't necessarily relate directly to "top STEM students" in college. As I understand it, a lot of arcane coaching goes into becoming one of these prodigies. And I bet home geography (do you live near tutors and teams) plays a big role. Then on top you get gender and racial effects from people deciding whether an activity is of interest to them based on norms and visible participation.

I view these math competitions as essentially pretty esoteric. Like being an Olympic class javelin thrower. There's a lot to groundbreaking STEM beyond cracking crazy math problems. I know the profs at Caltech and MIT really want these kids to attend. But frankly that might almost just be affinity bias because they are similar types of math geeks.

When I read this thread, and see how common women are getting in the programs, it makes me believe that you could, in the right environment, find and grow female talent to be competitive at these competitions. But they'd have to be nurtured and encouraged and actually care about participating.

And, in the current environment, a lot of the girls in STEM programs for kids are going away or morphing into.open access.

It's not really a matter of coaching - AoPS books are cheap and anyone can buy it. It's a matter of inclination to put in the time. Generally, young boys are more likely to have the motivation to put in the work in competition math, hence why boys outperform.

The fact that even you agree these kids are future math professor material is telling.

You can look at Caltech demographics before and after they discriminated based on gender to get a 50/50 class, the way MIT has been doing for decades. Prior to switching to a 50/50 class, Caltech was gender-blind, and as you would expect the vast majority of their admitted class was male.

Generally all the objective evidence supports the conclusion of the applicant pools at these elite STEM schools being mostly similar between gender with the top 2-3% being mostly male, while the only arguments in favor of the top 2-3% of the applicant pool being 50/50 depends on unverifiable narratives with no evidence to back them up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Denied for in-state UVA, VT. Coming from FCPS. Female 720 SAT Math, AP Physics C, AP Chem, AP Calc BC, unweighted 3.8, President Science Honor Society, elected Homecoming Court, 2 Varsity Sports, Employed.

I think it's BS our country wants more female STEM professionals.

What on earth does homecoming court have to do with, well, anything?

DP, but I would assume it suggests she's accepted (and seen as a leader) socially by her classmates. I wouldn't focus on it, but it adds a little paint to the picture.

I would never in a million years include that on a resume/college app.

I believe the correct DCUM response is "sorry you weren't nominated!"

[Anonymous]

A few years ago I read that Cornell was trying to have their Engineering school be 50% women and 50% men. But, a lot more men apply then women, so the acceptance rate for women applying to Engineering was close to 20%, but for men it was below 5%. I don't know if they are still doing that.

College Navigator site also has acceptance rates for men and women listed separately (but not specifically by school). You could check a few of the STEM heavy schools and see what the acceptance rate looks like. For example, WPI has a much higher acceptance rate for women than men (69% to 54%, but also a lower yield for women) but RPI has the same acceptance rate for both. Caly Poly SLO also has a higher rate for women (35%) than men (24%). MIT for women is 7%, men 4%; CMU women 15%, men 9%.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it's easy for girls to get into engineering programs.
Every year, from our school, we have seen girls get into schools like Princeton, Caltech, etc., who never participated in math competitions, over boys who were ranked in the top at various math competitions. A couple of years ago, Princeton denied the boy who went to MOP, whereas it accepted the girl who never took any AMC exam (all else equal). After researching the data from our school, I am thinking of advising our son, who is very much into math competitions, not to have high expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I am seeing and hearing is all high stat students are applying to the same schools..

Michigan
Chicago
Cornell
Vandy
Duke
CMU
Penn
MIT
UVA

Boys girls, public private high schools , engineering, pre law, pre med, everyone I know is literally applying to these schools..all high stats.

At one child's private as well as my other kid's stem-magnet public, we can get data on where females v males apply: males interested in stem apply to MIT, CMU and the big state schools much more than females. Females interested in stem apply to Ivies, Chicago(they have molecular engineering), Duke as much or more than the males and most top stem females do not apply to UCB Mich GT. We toured every ivy but one as well as MIT. All but one of them had female tourguide for the interested-in-stem applicants.
There are just so many top females interested in Engineering in our area: there have been robotics teams half female for at least 6 years and there are multiple girls who code groups. The last four valedictorians have all wanted Engineering, four have been women. Valedictorians are easy to pick out on SCOIR which narrows by year: The SATs were all 1550+. The women getting admitted to engineering at the ivy-level are not any level lesser than the guys. For whatever reason, the females tend to prefer the non-tech-y schools, they want engineering within a liberal arts environment, they want to be able to continue theater, orchestra, singing that they did in high school. That type of mixing of interests is much harder to get at a super tech or large public. For any slight female boost, target GT, Mich, CMU, UIUC. The very top females often leave them off the list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's easy for girls to get into engineering programs.
Every year, from our school, we have seen girls get into schools like Princeton, Caltech, etc., who never participated in math competitions, over boys who were ranked in the top at various math competitions. A couple of years ago, Princeton denied the boy who went to MOP, whereas it accepted the girl who never took any AMC exam (all else equal). After researching the data from our school, I am thinking of advising our son, who is very much into math competitions, not to have high expectations.

Same thing at our high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I am seeing and hearing is all high stat students are applying to the same schools..

Michigan
Chicago
Cornell
Vandy
Duke
CMU
Penn
MIT
UVA

Boys girls, public private high schools , engineering, pre law, pre med, everyone I know is literally applying to these schools..all high stats.

At one child's private as well as my other kid's stem-magnet public, we can get data on where females v males apply: males interested in stem apply to MIT, CMU and the big state schools much more than females. Females interested in stem apply to Ivies, Chicago(they have molecular engineering), Duke as much or more than the males and most top stem females do not apply to UCB Mich GT. We toured every ivy but one as well as MIT. All but one of them had female tourguide for the interested-in-stem applicants.
There are just so many top females interested in Engineering in our area: there have been robotics teams half female for at least 6 years and there are multiple girls who code groups. The last four valedictorians have all wanted Engineering, four have been women. Valedictorians are easy to pick out on SCOIR which narrows by year: The SATs were all 1550+. The women getting admitted to engineering at the ivy-level are not any level lesser than the guys. For whatever reason, the females tend to prefer the non-tech-y schools, they want engineering within a liberal arts environment, they want to be able to continue theater, orchestra, singing that they did in high school. That type of mixing of interests is much harder to get at a super tech or large public. For any slight female boost, target GT, Mich, CMU, UIUC. The very top females often leave them off the list.

Your view is DMV-centric. I posted upthread about Michigan. It is very much in-demand by our top female in-state engineering candidates for obvious reasons. And there are a lot of females pursuing engineering because the biggest feeder county (similar to MoCo) has lots of dual STEM career parents. Which makes for mom role models.

At Michigan, there are a ton of extracurriculars. University theater and some music ensembles are nearly professional so not very accessible but there is marching band, a student pops orchestra, a gamelan, amateur theater clubs, quidditch, two Model UN teams, multiple fantastic a capella groups, etc. I don't think there are any issues with attracting female applicants who want to continue extracurriculars. Maybe the options are just trickier to research if you don't know the school well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I am seeing and hearing is all high stat students are applying to the same schools..

Michigan
Chicago
Cornell
Vandy
Duke
CMU
Penn
MIT
UVA

Boys girls, public private high schools , engineering, pre law, pre med, everyone I know is literally applying to these schools..all high stats.

At one child's private as well as my other kid's stem-magnet public, we can get data on where females v males apply: males interested in stem apply to MIT, CMU and the big state schools much more than females. Females interested in stem apply to Ivies, Chicago(they have molecular engineering), Duke as much or more than the males and most top stem females do not apply to UCB Mich GT. We toured every ivy but one as well as MIT. All but one of them had female tourguide for the interested-in-stem applicants.
There are just so many top females interested in Engineering in our area: there have been robotics teams half female for at least 6 years and there are multiple girls who code groups. The last four valedictorians have all wanted Engineering, four have been women. Valedictorians are easy to pick out on SCOIR which narrows by year: The SATs were all 1550+. The women getting admitted to engineering at the ivy-level are not any level lesser than the guys. For whatever reason, the females tend to prefer the non-tech-y schools, they want engineering within a liberal arts environment, they want to be able to continue theater, orchestra, singing that they did in high school. That type of mixing of interests is much harder to get at a super tech or large public. For any slight female boost, target GT, Mich, CMU, UIUC. The very top females often leave them off the list.

Your view is DMV-centric. I posted upthread about Michigan. It is very much in-demand by our top female in-state engineering candidates for obvious reasons. And there are a lot of females pursuing engineering because the biggest feeder county (similar to MoCo) has lots of dual STEM career parents. Which makes for mom role models.

At Michigan, there are a ton of extracurriculars. University theater and some music ensembles are nearly professional so not very accessible but there is marching band, a student pops orchestra, a gamelan, amateur theater clubs, quidditch, two Model UN teams, multiple fantastic a capella groups, etc. I don't think there are any issues with attracting female applicants who want to continue extracurriculars. Maybe the options are just trickier to research if you don't know the school well.

+1

UCB engineering also in demand with young women. But maybe experience is better at Michigan (for both boys and girls).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
It parallels what ours has experienced. D2023 is at an ivy in engineering and almost every one of her female friends was their school Val or Sal with every stem AP on their resume. The ivy had a welcome to engineering event for freshman parents and they mentioned highest % females in the application pool and noted many majors within engineering are 60% female now, but the overall is 42%. They actually said we no longer have to worry not enough females apply we have plenty. They said their grad school remains 60% male for engineering

Who says Val or Sal?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I am seeing and hearing is all high stat students are applying to the same schools..

Michigan
Chicago
Cornell
Vandy
Duke
CMU
Penn
MIT
UVA

Boys girls, public private high schools , engineering, pre law, pre med, everyone I know is literally applying to these schools..all high stats.

At one child's private as well as my other kid's stem-magnet public, we can get data on where females v males apply: males interested in stem apply to MIT, CMU and the big state schools much more than females. Females interested in stem apply to Ivies, Chicago(they have molecular engineering), Duke as much or more than the males and most top stem females do not apply to UCB Mich GT. We toured every ivy but one as well as MIT. All but one of them had female tourguide for the interested-in-stem applicants.
There are just so many top females interested in Engineering in our area: there have been robotics teams half female for at least 6 years and there are multiple girls who code groups. The last four valedictorians have all wanted Engineering, four have been women. Valedictorians are easy to pick out on SCOIR which narrows by year: The SATs were all 1550+. The women getting admitted to engineering at the ivy-level are not any level lesser than the guys. For whatever reason, the females tend to prefer the non-tech-y schools, they want engineering within a liberal arts environment, they want to be able to continue theater, orchestra, singing that they did in high school. That type of mixing of interests is much harder to get at a super tech or large public. For any slight female boost, target GT, Mich, CMU, UIUC. The very top females often leave them off the list.

What? Large publics are the *best* places to mix engineering with liberal arts and be involved in theater/orchestra/choral groups, etc. Virginia Tech, Michigan, UICU - all have top notch engineering plus tons of liberal arts options and all of the above ECs.