How do you know if a breeder is really a puppy mill?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

They get them for free and resell them. That is the only difference. Don't kid yourself to think rescues aren't reselling dogs.

You are really failing to understand all of this. DP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

Probably. The fact that you had the “best dog ever“ does not mean that there wasn’t any suffering involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

They get them for free and resell them. That is the only difference. Don't kid yourself to think rescues aren't reselling dogs.

You are really failing to understand all of this. DP.

No, I'm not. Both are methods of selling dogs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

If they had papers at some point some testing was done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

No, a back yard breeder wouldn't have papers. If your breeder had papers, the dogs would have had their lineages checked (to avoid inbreeding). Otherwise the kennel club wouldn't have issued the papers.

Incorrect. Having “papers“ just means that the parent dogs have papers indicating that they are purebreds. It doesn’t really indicate anything else. It doesn’t guarantee health testing, it doesn’t guarantee that the dogs were treated properly, it doesn’t guarantee that the animals are healthy, it really doesn’t guarantee much of anything other than the breed of the dogs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Rescues are businesses and reselling dogs. That's how they make their money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

Op above. I posted above but to add again, my dh looked for more local breeders and they are charging 5 times the price. Crazy. It’s so hard to find a good breeder

They charge a lot of money because it costs a lot of money to breed healthy animals. High quality food, veterinary care, genetic testing, the list goes on – it's very expensive.

What breed are you looking for? Have you considered a breed specific rescue group?

So what do you think is a reasonable price for a dog? Some places charge thousands. One place wanted 3500 for a puppy.

I do know overall dog care costs a lot. Have had plenty of pets.

The reasonable price for a dog depends on the breed. There are a lot of factors involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

Op above. I posted above but to add again, my dh looked for more local breeders and they are charging 5 times the price. Crazy. It’s so hard to find a good breeder

They charge a lot of money because it costs a lot of money to breed healthy animals. High quality food, veterinary care, genetic testing, the list goes on – it's very expensive.

What breed are you looking for? Have you considered a breed specific rescue group?

Most people don't feed high quality food, dogs are only pregnant two months so maybe 1-2 vet appointments... they aren't genetic testing every dog. Be real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

If they had papers at some point some testing was done.

That’s not true.

All it means is that the dog is registered. Nothing more.

https://www.akc.org/press-center/articles-resources/puppy-buyer-fact-sheet/

https://www.clevercaninetraining.com/post/akc-registration-what-does-it-mean-and-what-it-doesn-t-mean

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

Op above. I posted above but to add again, my dh looked for more local breeders and they are charging 5 times the price. Crazy. It’s so hard to find a good breeder

They charge a lot of money because it costs a lot of money to breed healthy animals. High quality food, veterinary care, genetic testing, the list goes on – it's very expensive.

What breed are you looking for? Have you considered a breed specific rescue group?

Most people don't feed high quality food, dogs are only pregnant two months so maybe 1-2 vet appointments... they aren't genetic testing every dog. Be real.

Good breeders are in fact doing all of this and more.

I am part of this world and know this to be true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

No, a back yard breeder wouldn't have papers. If your breeder had papers, the dogs would have had their lineages checked (to avoid inbreeding). Otherwise the kennel club wouldn't have issued the papers.

Incorrect. Having “papers“ just means that the parent dogs have papers indicating that they are purebreds. It doesn’t really indicate anything else. It doesn’t guarantee health testing, it doesn’t guarantee that the dogs were treated properly, it doesn’t guarantee that the animals are healthy, it really doesn’t guarantee much of anything other than the breed of the dogs.

My grandmother was a hobby breeder but got all her puppies AKC registered and the club did the lineages and cleared the breeding beforehand. She had one where they switched the fathers shortly before because they decided they wanted a more diverse match.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

They get them for free and resell them. That is the only difference. Don't kid yourself to think rescues aren't reselling dogs.

You are really failing to understand all of this. DP.

No, I'm not. Both are methods of selling dogs.

Sure
Question is - who is benefiting from the proceedings. Puppy mills or rescues? It's a big difference for me - who's going to profit from my hard-earned $$$. YMMV obviously

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

They get them for free and resell them. That is the only difference. Don't kid yourself to think rescues aren't reselling dogs.

You are really failing to understand all of this. DP.

No, I'm not. Both are methods of selling dogs.

Sure
Question is - who is benefiting from the proceedings. Puppy mills or rescues? It's a big difference for me - who's going to profit from my hard-earned $$$. YMMV obviously

Some of the rescues buy the dogs from puppy mills at auctions.

I always have to lol when people say their dog was “rescued from a puppy mill” like they’re imagining a commando raid or something but actually it’s just a dog auction.

[Anonymous]

I think of it has hobby breeding vs backyard breeding. For a hobby, someone is invested in the care of the dog. Backyard is whatever happens happens. Puppy mill dogs end up a rescues. backyard bred dogs end up a rescues. it is a weird triangle where people are priced out of breeders, don't want to support a puppy mill, but somehow rescue a dog that also seems to contribute to ongoing rescue dog needs. I've never successfully talked someone out of getting a puppy mill dog and everyone of those dogs is neurotic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

No, a back yard breeder wouldn't have papers. If your breeder had papers, the dogs would have had their lineages checked (to avoid inbreeding). Otherwise the kennel club wouldn't have issued the papers.

Incorrect. Having “papers“ just means that the parent dogs have papers indicating that they are purebreds. It doesn’t really indicate anything else. It doesn’t guarantee health testing, it doesn’t guarantee that the dogs were treated properly, it doesn’t guarantee that the animals are healthy, it really doesn’t guarantee much of anything other than the breed of the dogs.

My grandmother was a hobby breeder but got all her puppies AKC registered and the club did the lineages and cleared the breeding beforehand. She had one where they switched the fathers shortly before because they decided they wanted a more diverse match.

Whether or not that's true that has no bearing on what "AKC papers" means today. It does not mean anything about testing or health.