How do you know if a breeder is really a puppy mill?

[Anonymous]

OP, tell us what kind of dog you are looking for and maybe we can help you find an ethical breeder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope. That community is not known for medically-sound or sensitive breeding practices.

You want to find a breeder that you can visit, OP. Breeders who care for their animals will NEVER ship them out. Those who care also don't want to sell them to just anyone, and will require an in-person visit to check you out. This is what our breeder did. We drove to Pennsylvania and met with her and the litter when the puppies were 5 weeks old. She approved of us, we approved of her and the puppies, and we selected one. Then we went to her home to pick him up at 11 weeks, and visited her home, where she lived with her dam, a couple of other dogs of the same breed, and her dam's litter. No kennels, no volume, in-house training by her, genetic screens, the works! It should be a labor of love, not a cash cow.

These are good things to look for. In addition, legitimate breeders may require that they match you with a dog as opposed to you picking. They know the dog's temperament and personality and are better able to determine, based on your personality/temperament preferences, which puppy would be a good fit for you. They may also require, per the contract, that if for some reason you cannot keep the dog, you have to return it to them.

Not always true, we got to pick. Its hard to tell in a few weeks. She sent us a few videos of the gender we wanted and we picked. All were pretty similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

Op above. I posted above but to add again, my dh looked for more local breeders and they are charging 5 times the price. Crazy. It’s so hard to find a good breeder

So what this is a $500 puppy and local breeders are charging $2,500?

I mean look, you don't want a discount puppy. Let's set aside the ethical issues for a second (though we really shouldn't) and be extremely clinical about math. A bad genetic issue, an illness from improper care or bad conditions when they're a puppy will cost you more than the 2-3k you might save on a cheaper puppy. For some context my free shelter cat had a genetic condition that attacked his teeth, overall a minor issue, and while he was healthy and had a long full life otherwise, I probably spent about 5k just on his teeth during the course of his life.

A sick puppy could easily cost 3-4x that over the course of their life.

Now there are no guarantees, you might luck out with a sketchy bred dog and a properly bred dog might also get sick or injured. But from a purely financial perspective, it's not actually a smart cost saving.

Or, find someone in the middle. We paid maybe $1500 with 1/2 transportation. This post with the rescue is true. However, to properly care for a dog its pricy. We get our dogs teeth cleaned yearly and its $350. We feed real food with just a little kibble mixed in. We get it groomed monthly (we do the bathing, just trim and nail - we tried but she'd fight us too much). I'd rather have a puppy and put the money in so we don't have future issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nope. That community is not known for medically-sound or sensitive breeding practices.

You want to find a breeder that you can visit, OP. Breeders who care for their animals will NEVER ship them out. Those who care also don't want to sell them to just anyone, and will require an in-person visit to check you out. This is what our breeder did. We drove to Pennsylvania and met with her and the litter when the puppies were 5 weeks old. She approved of us, we approved of her and the puppies, and we selected one. Then we went to her home to pick him up at 11 weeks, and visited her home, where she lived with her dam, a couple of other dogs of the same breed, and her dam's litter. No kennels, no volume, in-house training by her, genetic screens, the works! It should be a labor of love, not a cash cow.

These are good things to look for. In addition, legitimate breeders may require that they match you with a dog as opposed to you picking. They know the dog's temperament and personality and are better able to determine, based on your personality/temperament preferences, which puppy would be a good fit for you. They may also require, per the contract, that if for some reason you cannot keep the dog, you have to return it to them.

Not always true, we got to pick. Its hard to tell in a few weeks. She sent us a few videos of the gender we wanted and we picked. All were pretty similar.

I said they "may require".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

They get them for free and resell them. That is the only difference. Don't kid yourself to think rescues aren't reselling dogs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

This is correct. Breeding dogs is not really a business, it's a hobby for people who are devoted to the breed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

Op above. I posted above but to add again, my dh looked for more local breeders and they are charging 5 times the price. Crazy. It’s so hard to find a good breeder

They charge a lot of money because it costs a lot of money to breed healthy animals. High quality food, veterinary care, genetic testing, the list goes on – it's very expensive.

What breed are you looking for? Have you considered a breed specific rescue group?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

No, a back yard breeder wouldn't have papers. If your breeder had papers, the dogs would have had their lineages checked (to avoid inbreeding). Otherwise the kennel club wouldn't have issued the papers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

Op above. I posted above but to add again, my dh looked for more local breeders and they are charging 5 times the price. Crazy. It’s so hard to find a good breeder

They charge a lot of money because it costs a lot of money to breed healthy animals. High quality food, veterinary care, genetic testing, the list goes on – it's very expensive.

What breed are you looking for? Have you considered a breed specific rescue group?

So what do you think is a reasonable price for a dog? Some places charge thousands. One place wanted 3500 for a puppy.

I do know overall dog care costs a lot. Have had plenty of pets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Skipped...

It just makes no sense that buying from a Mennonite breeder after trying to do some due diligence, with no help from dog advocacy groups, is unethical but paying Lucky Dog to ship up a puppy someone bred in their SC backyard is virtuous.

Lucky dog doesn't pay anyone to breed dogs on their backyard, they just take puppies surrendered to local SC shelter... They also don't encourage future breeding (all dogs are either neutered before adoption have iron-clad clause for future neutering)

But buying from by provides monetary incentives to said breeders to keep going...
So sad that you can't see that difference

You don’t have to pay anyone. Dealing with their most unpleasant and inconvenient consequence for free is a clear disincentive for SC to eliminate backyard breeding. Why should anyone down there clean up the problem (which can clearly be solved, as in the northeast) when rescues will deal with all the puppies?

Dp. What is meant by ‘backyard breeding’? We got our last purebred dog (who passed recently) from a breeder who raised dogs at her home. He had papers but not any genetic tests that I recall. Best dog ever. Is that a backyard breeder?

No, a back yard breeder wouldn't have papers. If your breeder had papers, the dogs would have had their lineages checked (to avoid inbreeding). Otherwise the kennel club wouldn't have issued the papers.

I read an article recently that said ALL purebreds are highly inbred.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

Op above. I posted above but to add again, my dh looked for more local breeders and they are charging 5 times the price. Crazy. It’s so hard to find a good breeder

They charge a lot of money because it costs a lot of money to breed healthy animals. High quality food, veterinary care, genetic testing, the list goes on – it's very expensive.

What breed are you looking for? Have you considered a breed specific rescue group?

So what do you think is a reasonable price for a dog? Some places charge thousands. One place wanted 3500 for a puppy.

I do know overall dog care costs a lot. Have had plenty of pets.

It very much depends on the dog in question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend’s family are Mennonite dog breeders. They have one female they breed at a time but she has a litter basically every year. The dogs do always seem well cared for, clean, live in their house with them, etc. But I don’t know how good it is to be bred that often. Or maybe that isn’t often for a purebred breeder?

Walk talking to a breeder recently and he said they only breed each mom 3x. They are AKC registered I couldn’t bare to ask what happens when they can’t be bread anymore.

FWIW my grandma was a registered breeder and she only bred her female dog one or two times each, she just had 5 or 10 year gaps between litters. The moms were just family pets. But she was a hobby breeder and she always lost money on it.

This is the thing — if the animals are properly cared for, you don’t make money. Legit breeders are in it to advance the breed. That’s why there are virtually no legit doodle breeders. There is no breed standard to conform to and there is a huge market; a recipe for abuse/neglect.

Op above. I posted above but to add again, my dh looked for more local breeders and they are charging 5 times the price. Crazy. It’s so hard to find a good breeder

Ethical breeders and puppy mills sell products that look very similar, but are not the same quality. You can get a burger at a fast food restaurant or a fine steakhouse, but the organic grass fed Kobe beef is going to cost more than the 80/20 ground beef with fillers, even if they’re both burgers. Which is your priority, the affordable burger or the highest quality burger?

Not sure this is a great analogy but I have to assume someone charging 3 to 5k for a dog is doing it to make some money, no? You indicated above (I think, someone did) that it should be solely a ‘labor of love’, no?

Not pp, but the “labor of love” is about advancement of the breed. And if you are taking proper care of your animals, and getting all of the necessary vet testing, etc., it can be very expensive. So charging that much for a dog often does make sense, with an ethical breeder. The problem is that the puppy mills may charge that much as well. So price is really not indicative of much of anything. Except that you’re not going to get a champion line purebred GSD for $500.