Mediocre soccer players is what our country produces

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know, OP. My son doesn't play MLS Next but the few friends he has who do are pretty damn good.

I use to think this way till “our” went to Spain. OMG we got destroyed by what would be considered the 3rd and 4th teams. They pretty damn good but there are many levels up the top leagues in the US youth travel.

I am the OP. The person who posted about Spain is correct. Our boys look "pretty damn good" based on our standards and the skill level we have here. But it is all relative. Once we get out to the real world of soccer our boys have no chance and while they may look "damn pretty good" here, overseas they are mediocre players.

Most parents who influence the system (and thereby ruining it) just want their kid to play college and that is all. So they hinder or close the door of opportunity of a talented soccer player (with perhaps no financial means to pay club soccer) and hence he is not seen by coaches and/or scouts.

Plus, many club directors are mostly made up of former college players who have not seen what or how a professional team on an international level club is run or plays.

Please refrain from making silly comments about my post and thanks to those who have replied with a cool head and good info. My post is meant to help us produce better soccer players who can make us look good.

Yup
Everyone stop and Google the Technical Director and Head Coach of your DC's so-called elite club or team.
Look at their soccer resume of experience and certifications.
How can we compete with the knowledge and experience running and teaching at elite youth organizations overseas?

There are U9 and U10 kids in Belgium for example getting coached by former international professionals who came through top academy systems themselves, played for big clubs and now have UEFA level licenses that takes years to achieve.

Granted, there are a few very good youth coaches here and there in the USA, but the system and culture doesn't support them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:our population is almost 10x that of most European countries that are soccer powerhouses. So if they have 1 mega-star (Messi, Mbappe, Klose, Ronaldo, Bellingham, Haaland etc.) per 30M people, the law of averages would mean that we should have 10 mega-stars, i don't think our best player(s) crack the top 100 in the world right now.

So something is severely broken in the transition between youth and men's soccer in the US.

The problem starts at grass-youth soccer.
Coaches not knowledgeable or properly certified or doing ongoing education in youth development.
Parents not knowledgeable, don't really care, didn't come from soccer culture.
Kids don't know what they don't know.
Terms like 'elite' acceptedly misused and abused
Parents with money and corporate influence but dunce to high level soccer calling the shots
Clubs happily accepting mediocre as long as the right pockets get lined. Repeat for the next batch

By the time physicality is no longer an advantage and tactics/philosophies get complicated, the gap widens between us and elsewhere.
One or two diamonds will always make it out of the coal-mine

The lack of soccer culture really is a huge issue. many kids don't watch professional soccer to see how it's supposed to be done, or the level of creativity brought to the game by elite players. The lack field awareness and game IQ because they've not seen it done or have no one to emulate. I'd compare it to a chef who specializes in French cuisine and cooks straight from a cookbook but has never lived in or immersed himself in the culture to taste/grow up with the food. Sure, you can follow the recipe and the steps but there'd be a level of authenticity missing. That's US soccer. It's textbook, boring and lacks panache.

I've heard Tom Byer, an American who has been working for decades in Japan to promote and develop soccer there, talk about his philosophy of "soccer begins at home" and how Japan, a country without a soccer culture, has succeeded in developing technically proficient competitive players on both the men's and women's sides. His perspective is interesting, but the main takeaway is that kids need to develop technical skills from a young age outside of competitive situations. American soccer, which prioritizes speed and strength and focuses on competition and outcomes, devalues technical development and skill acquisition that should be prioritized in young players.

https://www.socceramerica.com/tom-byer-on-the-intriguing-comparisons-between-us/

I'm a big fan of Tom Beyer and own his book. And I don't disagree with anything that he's said about the importance of very young kids developing their soccer skills. What I find interesting is how this same dynamic is not so much at play with other sports -- you rarely (if ever) hear anyone focusing on very young kids developing technical skills in basketball, baseball, or American football. In those sports, kids seems to be able to get away with just being good athletes who pick up technical abilities in those other sports later in childhood.

This seems to indicate that highly developed soccer skills really are uniquely difficult -- after all, using your feet rather than your hands is not natural for humans -- and that soccer really is the Beautiful Game and the most popular sport in the world for a reason.

That's one way to say that you don't have kids playing those sports

I actually do have kids playing those other sports, and I've played them myself. And sure, it's a matter of degree -- I'm not saying there are zero technical skills in other sports, of course. But, while there is no DCUM "American Football" or "Basketball" or "Baseball" forum where I can drop in to compare (what does that say about the culture of soccer, btw?), I don't hear the same level of discussion about "technical skills" needing to be developed at very young ages in those other sports. It seems that being a good athlete with good coordination, speed, and strength is often enough to permit a kid to start playing these other sports at 10 years old and to quickly catch up. Among the major sports, technical skills in soccer seem to be more difficult and require a much earlier start. Just my view.

Travel baseball players spend winters in batting cages working on just technical skills. Travel basketball players go to year round training to work on just technical skills. Quarterbacks have coaches working on just their mechanics. You not being exposed to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:our population is almost 10x that of most European countries that are soccer powerhouses. So if they have 1 mega-star (Messi, Mbappe, Klose, Ronaldo, Bellingham, Haaland etc.) per 30M people, the law of averages would mean that we should have 10 mega-stars, i don't think our best player(s) crack the top 100 in the world right now.

So something is severely broken in the transition between youth and men's soccer in the US.

The problem starts at grass-youth soccer.
Coaches not knowledgeable or properly certified or doing ongoing education in youth development.
Parents not knowledgeable, don't really care, didn't come from soccer culture.
Kids don't know what they don't know.
Terms like 'elite' acceptedly misused and abused
Parents with money and corporate influence but dunce to high level soccer calling the shots
Clubs happily accepting mediocre as long as the right pockets get lined. Repeat for the next batch

By the time physicality is no longer an advantage and tactics/philosophies get complicated, the gap widens between us and elsewhere.
One or two diamonds will always make it out of the coal-mine

The lack of soccer culture really is a huge issue. many kids don't watch professional soccer to see how it's supposed to be done, or the level of creativity brought to the game by elite players. The lack field awareness and game IQ because they've not seen it done or have no one to emulate. I'd compare it to a chef who specializes in French cuisine and cooks straight from a cookbook but has never lived in or immersed himself in the culture to taste/grow up with the food. Sure, you can follow the recipe and the steps but there'd be a level of authenticity missing. That's US soccer. It's textbook, boring and lacks panache.

I've heard Tom Byer, an American who has been working for decades in Japan to promote and develop soccer there, talk about his philosophy of "soccer begins at home" and how Japan, a country without a soccer culture, has succeeded in developing technically proficient competitive players on both the men's and women's sides. His perspective is interesting, but the main takeaway is that kids need to develop technical skills from a young age outside of competitive situations. American soccer, which prioritizes speed and strength and focuses on competition and outcomes, devalues technical development and skill acquisition that should be prioritized in young players.

https://www.socceramerica.com/tom-byer-on-the-intriguing-comparisons-between-us/

I'm a big fan of Tom Beyer and own his book. And I don't disagree with anything that he's said about the importance of very young kids developing their soccer skills. What I find interesting is how this same dynamic is not so much at play with other sports -- you rarely (if ever) hear anyone focusing on very young kids developing technical skills in basketball, baseball, or American football. In those sports, kids seems to be able to get away with just being good athletes who pick up technical abilities in those other sports later in childhood.

This seems to indicate that highly developed soccer skills really are uniquely difficult -- after all, using your feet rather than your hands is not natural for humans -- and that soccer really is the Beautiful Game and the most popular sport in the world for a reason.

That's one way to say that you don't have kids playing those sports

I actually do have kids playing those other sports, and I've played them myself. And sure, it's a matter of degree -- I'm not saying there are zero technical skills in other sports, of course. But, while there is no DCUM "American Football" or "Basketball" or "Baseball" forum where I can drop in to compare (what does that say about the culture of soccer, btw?), I don't hear the same level of discussion about "technical skills" needing to be developed at very young ages in those other sports. It seems that being a good athlete with good coordination, speed, and strength is often enough to permit a kid to start playing these other sports at 10 years old and to quickly catch up. Among the major sports, technical skills in soccer seem to be more difficult and require a much earlier start. Just my view.

Travel baseball players spend winters in batting cages working on just technical skills. Travel basketball players go to year round training to work on just technical skills. Quarterbacks have coaches working on just their mechanics. You not being exposed to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Excellent point

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:our population is almost 10x that of most European countries that are soccer powerhouses. So if they have 1 mega-star (Messi, Mbappe, Klose, Ronaldo, Bellingham, Haaland etc.) per 30M people, the law of averages would mean that we should have 10 mega-stars, i don't think our best player(s) crack the top 100 in the world right now.

So something is severely broken in the transition between youth and men's soccer in the US.

Do we have mega-stars in every sport played internationally?

Yes - basketball, baseball, skiers, swimmer, gymnastics, crew, snowboarders, track and field, ice skaters, tennis, golf...we usually top of the country standings at both Olympics

No - hockey, soccer, rugby, cricket

Did you filter out the ones who became US Citizens later in life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know, OP. My son doesn't play MLS Next but the few friends he has who do are pretty damn good.

I use to think this way till “our” went to Spain. OMG we got destroyed by what would be considered the 3rd and 4th teams. They pretty damn good but there are many levels up the top leagues in the US youth travel.

I am the OP. The person who posted about Spain is correct. Our boys look "pretty damn good" based on our standards and the skill level we have here. But it is all relative. Once we get out to the real world of soccer our boys have no chance and while they may look "damn pretty good" here, overseas they are mediocre players.

Most parents who influence the system (and thereby ruining it) just want their kid to play college and that is all. So they hinder or close the door of opportunity of a talented soccer player (with perhaps no financial means to pay club soccer) and hence he is not seen by coaches and/or scouts.

Plus, many club directors are mostly made up of former college players who have not seen what or how a professional team on an international level club is run or plays.

Please refrain from making silly comments about my post and thanks to those who have replied with a cool head and good info. My post is meant to help us produce better soccer players who can make us look good.

Yup
Everyone stop and Google the Technical Director and Head Coach of your DC's so-called elite club or team.
Look at their soccer resume of experience and certifications.
How can we compete with the knowledge and experience running and teaching at elite youth organizations overseas?

There are U9 and U10 kids in Belgium for example getting coached by former international professionals who came through top academy systems themselves, played for big clubs and now have UEFA level licenses that takes years to achieve.

Granted, there are a few very good youth coaches here and there in the USA, but the system and culture doesn't support them.

It's a joke and yes my kid is big and fast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I d

I am the OP. The person who posted about Spain is correct. Our boys look "pretty damn good" based on our standards and the skill level we have here. But it is all relative. Once we get out to the real world of soccer our boys have no chance and while they may look "damn pretty good" here, overseas they are mediocre players.

Most parents who influence the system (and thereby ruining it) just want their kid to play college and that is all. So they hinder or close the door of opportunity of a talented soccer player (with perhaps no financial means to pay club soccer) and hence he is not seen by coaches and/or scouts.

Plus, many club directors are mostly made up of former college players who have not seen what or how a professional team on an international level club is run or plays.

Please refrain from making silly comments about my post and thanks to those who have replied with a cool head and good info. My post is meant to help us produce better soccer players who can make us look good.

If you don't want silly comments, you should avoid opinions like being anti-college soccer because of X,Y and Z without references to facts and studies. Everybody has silly opinions if they don't match yours.

Also, your comment illustrates that you are trying to maximize the number of high level of soccer players while saying that parents/kids don't have this same maximization problem (i.e. they merely want to play in college and then have a life unrelated to soccer). So you have to address this by making your Max problem their Max problem (essentially making their sole goal in life to play pro soccer while ignoring the opportunity costs associated with this (aka missed careers).

Maybe you should look into the research of youth sports topics like attrition, value of multiple sports, youth injury issues, etc. (see Gould) to learn more. Seems you would enjoy learning about the topic. Google is your friend. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Whoops, "quote" code typo above

"I am the OP. The person who posted about Spain is correct. Our boys look "pretty damn good" based on our standards and the skill level we have here. But it is all relative. Once we get out to the real world of soccer our boys have no chance and while they may look "damn pretty good" here, overseas they are mediocre players.

Most parents who influence the system (and thereby ruining it) just want their kid to play college and that is all. So they hinder or close the door of opportunity of a talented soccer player (with perhaps no financial means to pay club soccer) and hence he is not seen by coaches and/or scouts.

Plus, many club directors are mostly made up of former college players who have not seen what or how a professional team on an international level club is run or plays.

Please refrain from making silly comments about my post and thanks to those who have replied with a cool head and good info. My post is meant to help us produce better soccer players who can make us look good."

If you don't want silly comments, you should avoid opinions like being anti-college soccer because of X,Y and Z without references to facts and studies. Everybody has silly opinions if they don't match yours.

Also, your comment illustrates that you are trying to maximize the number of high level of soccer players while saying that parents/kids don't have this same maximization problem (i.e. they merely want to play in college and then have a life unrelated to soccer). So you have to address this by making your Max problem their Max problem (essentially making their sole goal in life to play pro soccer while ignoring the opportunity costs associated with this (aka missed careers).

Maybe you should look into the research of youth sports topics like attrition, value of multiple sports, youth injury issues, etc. (see Gould) to learn more. Seems you would enjoy learning about the topic. Google is your friend. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:our population is almost 10x that of most European countries that are soccer powerhouses. So if they have 1 mega-star (Messi, Mbappe, Klose, Ronaldo, Bellingham, Haaland etc.) per 30M people, the law of averages would mean that we should have 10 mega-stars, i don't think our best player(s) crack the top 100 in the world right now.

So something is severely broken in the transition between youth and men's soccer in the US.

The problem starts at grass-youth soccer.
Coaches not knowledgeable or properly certified or doing ongoing education in youth development.
Parents not knowledgeable, don't really care, didn't come from soccer culture.
Kids don't know what they don't know.
Terms like 'elite' acceptedly misused and abused
Parents with money and corporate influence but dunce to high level soccer calling the shots
Clubs happily accepting mediocre as long as the right pockets get lined. Repeat for the next batch

By the time physicality is no longer an advantage and tactics/philosophies get complicated, the gap widens between us and elsewhere.
One or two diamonds will always make it out of the coal-mine

The lack of soccer culture really is a huge issue. many kids don't watch professional soccer to see how it's supposed to be done, or the level of creativity brought to the game by elite players. The lack field awareness and game IQ because they've not seen it done or have no one to emulate. I'd compare it to a chef who specializes in French cuisine and cooks straight from a cookbook but has never lived in or immersed himself in the culture to taste/grow up with the food. Sure, you can follow the recipe and the steps but there'd be a level of authenticity missing. That's US soccer. It's textbook, boring and lacks panache.

I've heard Tom Byer, an American who has been working for decades in Japan to promote and develop soccer there, talk about his philosophy of "soccer begins at home" and how Japan, a country without a soccer culture, has succeeded in developing technically proficient competitive players on both the men's and women's sides. His perspective is interesting, but the main takeaway is that kids need to develop technical skills from a young age outside of competitive situations. American soccer, which prioritizes speed and strength and focuses on competition and outcomes, devalues technical development and skill acquisition that should be prioritized in young players.

https://www.socceramerica.com/tom-byer-on-the-intriguing-comparisons-between-us/

I'm a big fan of Tom Beyer and own his book. And I don't disagree with anything that he's said about the importance of very young kids developing their soccer skills. What I find interesting is how this same dynamic is not so much at play with other sports -- you rarely (if ever) hear anyone focusing on very young kids developing technical skills in basketball, baseball, or American football. In those sports, kids seems to be able to get away with just being good athletes who pick up technical abilities in those other sports later in childhood.

This seems to indicate that highly developed soccer skills really are uniquely difficult -- after all, using your feet rather than your hands is not natural for humans -- and that soccer really is the Beautiful Game and the most popular sport in the world for a reason.

That's one way to say that you don't have kids playing those sports

I actually do have kids playing those other sports, and I've played them myself. And sure, it's a matter of degree -- I'm not saying there are zero technical skills in other sports, of course. But, while there is no DCUM "American Football" or "Basketball" or "Baseball" forum where I can drop in to compare (what does that say about the culture of soccer, btw?), I don't hear the same level of discussion about "technical skills" needing to be developed at very young ages in those other sports. It seems that being a good athlete with good coordination, speed, and strength is often enough to permit a kid to start playing these other sports at 10 years old and to quickly catch up. Among the major sports, technical skills in soccer seem to be more difficult and require a much earlier start. Just my view.

At a high enough level every sport has technical skills that need to be developed. Sports like football (lineman, receiver, quarterback) and baseball (pitcher, catcher, infielder) have highly specialized positions that require very unique skills. When you are a casual participant it always seems like there isn't much to it. Just get the ball in the basket! But there is always a far more technical aspect that comes at higher levels. Shooting a basketball correctly is highly technical, being able to use the non-dominant hand to shoot and dribble takes a lot of practice, how to properly set a screen, box out for rebounds, execute a fast break, defend in man-to-man coverage vs zone defense. I find basketball has a lot of similar concepts with soccer but in a smaller space with hands instead of feet.

[Anonymous]

As long as athletes can make more professionally playing football and basketball than soccer, it will always be this way in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As long as athletes can make more professionally playing football and basketball than soccer, it will always be this way in the US.

Or maybe this is the reason athletes can make more professionally in those sports. It's not like pro leagues decide they are only going to pay X amount. The popularity drives the money which drives the popularity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As long as athletes can make more professionally playing football and basketball than soccer, it will always be this way in the US.

Last time I checked, there are many professional soccer players earning a lot of money

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:our population is almost 10x that of most European countries that are soccer powerhouses. So if they have 1 mega-star (Messi, Mbappe, Klose, Ronaldo, Bellingham, Haaland etc.) per 30M people, the law of averages would mean that we should have 10 mega-stars, i don't think our best player(s) crack the top 100 in the world right now.

So something is severely broken in the transition between youth and men's soccer in the US.

The problem starts at grass-youth soccer.
Coaches not knowledgeable or properly certified or doing ongoing education in youth development.
Parents not knowledgeable, don't really care, didn't come from soccer culture.
Kids don't know what they don't know.
Terms like 'elite' acceptedly misused and abused
Parents with money and corporate influence but dunce to high level soccer calling the shots
Clubs happily accepting mediocre as long as the right pockets get lined. Repeat for the next batch

By the time physicality is no longer an advantage and tactics/philosophies get complicated, the gap widens between us and elsewhere.
One or two diamonds will always make it out of the coal-mine

The lack of soccer culture really is a huge issue. many kids don't watch professional soccer to see how it's supposed to be done, or the level of creativity brought to the game by elite players. The lack field awareness and game IQ because they've not seen it done or have no one to emulate. I'd compare it to a chef who specializes in French cuisine and cooks straight from a cookbook but has never lived in or immersed himself in the culture to taste/grow up with the food. Sure, you can follow the recipe and the steps but there'd be a level of authenticity missing. That's US soccer. It's textbook, boring and lacks panache.

I've heard Tom Byer, an American who has been working for decades in Japan to promote and develop soccer there, talk about his philosophy of "soccer begins at home" and how Japan, a country without a soccer culture, has succeeded in developing technically proficient competitive players on both the men's and women's sides. His perspective is interesting, but the main takeaway is that kids need to develop technical skills from a young age outside of competitive situations. American soccer, which prioritizes speed and strength and focuses on competition and outcomes, devalues technical development and skill acquisition that should be prioritized in young players.

https://www.socceramerica.com/tom-byer-on-the-intriguing-comparisons-between-us/

I'm a big fan of Tom Beyer and own his book. And I don't disagree with anything that he's said about the importance of very young kids developing their soccer skills. What I find interesting is how this same dynamic is not so much at play with other sports -- you rarely (if ever) hear anyone focusing on very young kids developing technical skills in basketball, baseball, or American football. In those sports, kids seems to be able to get away with just being good athletes who pick up technical abilities in those other sports later in childhood.

This seems to indicate that highly developed soccer skills really are uniquely difficult -- after all, using your feet rather than your hands is not natural for humans -- and that soccer really is the Beautiful Game and the most popular sport in the world for a reason.

That's one way to say that you don't have kids playing those sports

I actually do have kids playing those other sports, and I've played them myself. And sure, it's a matter of degree -- I'm not saying there are zero technical skills in other sports, of course. But, while there is no DCUM "American Football" or "Basketball" or "Baseball" forum where I can drop in to compare (what does that say about the culture of soccer, btw?), I don't hear the same level of discussion about "technical skills" needing to be developed at very young ages in those other sports. It seems that being a good athlete with good coordination, speed, and strength is often enough to permit a kid to start playing these other sports at 10 years old and to quickly catch up. Among the major sports, technical skills in soccer seem to be more difficult and require a much earlier start. Just my view.

Travel baseball players spend winters in batting cages working on just technical skills. Travel basketball players go to year round training to work on just technical skills. Quarterbacks have coaches working on just their mechanics. You not being exposed to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

DP. You are not following the PP's point. Of course, all sports require the development of technical skills, and high-level players devote hours to developing these skills. We are talking about the benefit of developing those skills from a young age, at home, or in the neighborhood, park, etc. for soccer players. The PP is commenting on the fact that if kids aren't developing their ball skills from a young age, it is difficult to catch up later. The American soccer model focuses more on games rather than mastery of technical skills for young players.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All MLSNext and "academy" teams are, for the most part, made up of mostly boys whose parents have the financial means to make donations to their clubs and keep the directors and coaches happy. The coaches that want to select talented players are shut down by directors. If we really wanted to produce quality players the clubs would get sponsors and provide skilled players, regardless of financial means, 100% free admission. But I guess that would not make the not-for-profit soccer clubs any money very quickly.

Just look at your club and tell me I am wrong.

And so, with this model, we will continue to produce mediocre soccer players representing our country in World Cups. College is a joke. All foreign students getting free tuition are the players on the team and staters.

The truth.

Sports are not the be all. We should worry more about our academic skills rather than our athletic ones

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All MLSNext and "academy" teams are, for the most part, made up of mostly boys whose parents have the financial means to make donations to their clubs and keep the directors and coaches happy. The coaches that want to select talented players are shut down by directors. If we really wanted to produce quality players the clubs would get sponsors and provide skilled players, regardless of financial means, 100% free admission. But I guess that would not make the not-for-profit soccer clubs any money very quickly.

Just look at your club and tell me I am wrong.

And so, with this model, we will continue to produce mediocre soccer players representing our country in World Cups. College is a joke. All foreign students getting free tuition are the players on the team and staters.

The truth.

Sports are not the be all. We should worry more about our academic skills rather than our athletic ones

Boooooooo. why are you here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as athletes can make more professionally playing football and basketball than soccer, it will always be this way in the US.

Last time I checked, there are many professional soccer players earning a lot of money

Not in a US league and not US born players.