Does anyone else ever have skepticism over too many dx?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

But on what basis would that kid have autism? He feels awkward in his heart ?

DP
The following would qualify for an autism diagnosis. Might present as a quiet, shy kid.
- He can't have a normal back and forth conversation and doesn't have an understanding of his own emotions and the emotions of others
- Can't use nonverbal communication properly
- Can't maintain friendships and/or has no close friends
- Has restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, such as lining up toys, need to eat the same food every day, strong fixation on specific area of interest
- Is either very sensitive or insensitive to sensory input (such as indifference to pain/temperature).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

a) this does not depict “masking”
b) a diagnosis of autism here would only happen due to the massive expansion of the definition
c) wtf with discounting this hypothetical kids friends because they are “also not popular”??? so being quiet and not popular is autism?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

But on what basis would that kid have autism? He feels awkward in his heart ?

DP
The following would qualify for an autism diagnosis. Might present as a quiet, shy kid.
- He can't have a normal back and forth conversation and doesn't have an understanding of his own emotions and the emotions of others
- Can't use nonverbal communication properly
- Can't maintain friendships and/or has no close friends
- Has restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, such as lining up toys, need to eat the same food every day, strong fixation on specific area of interest
- Is either very sensitive or insensitive to sensory input (such as indifference to pain/temperature).

and these would all have to cause clinically significant impairment across multiple domains. so yes, it would be apparent at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

But on what basis would that kid have autism? He feels awkward in his heart ?

DP
The following would qualify for an autism diagnosis. Might present as a quiet, shy kid.
- He can't have a normal back and forth conversation and doesn't have an understanding of his own emotions and the emotions of others
- Can't use nonverbal communication properly
- Can't maintain friendships and/or has no close friends
- Has restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, such as lining up toys, need to eat the same food every day, strong fixation on specific area of interest
- Is either very sensitive or insensitive to sensory input (such as indifference to pain/temperature).

and these would all have to cause clinically significant impairment across multiple domains. so yes, it would be apparent at school.

Of course it would be apparent. However, the teacher may not recognize the apparent symptoms as autism. Teachers are not diagnosticians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

a) this does not depict “masking”
b) a diagnosis of autism here would only happen due to the massive expansion of the definition
c) wtf with discounting this hypothetical kids friends because they are “also not popular”??? so being quiet and not popular is autism?

DP
The diagnostic criteria are here: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html
Yes a kid can be quiet and get good grades and meet the criteria.
With regards to the no popular friends, PP is offering a description of what it might look like for a child who has "Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends;"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

But on what basis would that kid have autism? He feels awkward in his heart ?

DP
The following would qualify for an autism diagnosis. Might present as a quiet, shy kid.
- He can't have a normal back and forth conversation and doesn't have an understanding of his own emotions and the emotions of others
- Can't use nonverbal communication properly
- Can't maintain friendships and/or has no close friends
- Has restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, such as lining up toys, need to eat the same food every day, strong fixation on specific area of interest
- Is either very sensitive or insensitive to sensory input (such as indifference to pain/temperature).

right but kids are not successfully 'masking' all those things through middle school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

But on what basis would that kid have autism? He feels awkward in his heart ?

DP
The following would qualify for an autism diagnosis. Might present as a quiet, shy kid.
- He can't have a normal back and forth conversation and doesn't have an understanding of his own emotions and the emotions of others
- Can't use nonverbal communication properly
- Can't maintain friendships and/or has no close friends
- Has restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, such as lining up toys, need to eat the same food every day, strong fixation on specific area of interest
- Is either very sensitive or insensitive to sensory input (such as indifference to pain/temperature).

right but kids are not successfully 'masking' all those things through middle school

I think a lot of people are assuming that "masking" means the child is indistinguishable from an NT child. That is not true. Masking is not perfect, it's just enough that an untrained person will not immediately think autism, especially if their perception of autism is based on Level 3 or Level 2 presentations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

But on what basis would that kid have autism? He feels awkward in his heart ?

DP
The following would qualify for an autism diagnosis. Might present as a quiet, shy kid.
- He can't have a normal back and forth conversation and doesn't have an understanding of his own emotions and the emotions of others
- Can't use nonverbal communication properly
- Can't maintain friendships and/or has no close friends
- Has restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, such as lining up toys, need to eat the same food every day, strong fixation on specific area of interest
- Is either very sensitive or insensitive to sensory input (such as indifference to pain/temperature).

right but kids are not successfully 'masking' all those things through middle school

I think a lot of people are assuming that "masking" means the child is indistinguishable from an NT child. That is not true. Masking is not perfect, it's just enough that an untrained person will not immediately think autism, especially if their perception of autism is based on Level 3 or Level 2 presentations.

that’s not what people mean by “masking.” by masking they mean deliberate efforts to hide autistic characteristics. I doubt any small kids or even MS kids are doing much of that. This gets conflated unhelpfully with the way that different environments evoke different behaviors. Also as an earlier PP pointed out, when kids are younger the behavior isn’t apparent because all little kids are learning social skills and it’s more normal to have tantrums etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has those diagnoses, asd, adhd, pda, anxiety and sensory issues. He masks at school and craves novelty so loves visiting his cousins and behaves (somewhat) unproblematically there. So no one sees it but us at home. Or maybe we're just lousy parents.

I mean … I don’t think you are lousy parents but I also don’t think a child can “mask” to that extent.

Eyeroll. You think wrong.

would you like to support that with evidence? behavior does change with environment but the “masking” discourse suggests that kids are deliberately hiding their condition at school. that’s not really believable. of course kids behave differently at school v home, but the stressors are different. my kid is generally much better at home than school but he’s not “masking” at home - he has many fewer stressors at home that trigger him.

most of the DSM diagnoses require the symptoms to be apparent across multiple domains. if your kid is only having behavioral issues at home - yes that it due to something happening at home, likely including parenting style - not because your kid is somehow fooling everyone else.

(For clarification, I am the eyeroll PP but not the original PP who said "maybe we're just lousy parents" - although I feel similarly.)

Anecdotes don't equal data and I have only personal experience as I haven't had time to go looking for data, but in my experience, this is exactly what is happening - yes, my kid would deliberately hide his condition, or more specifically his distress, at school. I have watched him tell a counselor - one he knows and trusts - that he's fine now and would take their advice and go back to the classroom, even with me sitting right next to him pointing out that's not what he told me a minute ago, and then the instant the counselor left, he burst into tears and saying "no actually I can't do this! please don't make me go back!" He could hide a full-blown panic attack in the middle of the lunchroom with no one the wiser, until he was in a safe space. He would spend every ounce of energy he had to bottle up his distress and just get through the school day without crying, because he could not stand for people to see him cry. (Never mind that its not physically possible to learn under that level of stress.) And then as soon as he got home, the dam would break and alllllll that distress would come spilling out.

"Behavior issues" are not the only symptoms. Behavior is communication, and behavior issues are signals to the outside world that something is wrong. But the absence of obvious signals doesn't necessarily equal an absence of problems. It just means you may need to look harder to find them. Especially in a typical large classroom environment, one can absolutely have symptoms that fly under the radar because they aren't obvious as "issues" in that environment.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" can look like talking too much / dominating the conversation, or it can look like not talking at all. "Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors" can look like refusal to make eye contact and making strange hand gestures, or it can look like staring straight at you and not moving (and likely not actually absorbing anything you say). "Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities" can be less than obvious when the interest itself is not that abnormal, but the intensity or focus is - like the 13yo boy who will talk about Minecraft for 4 hours but who can't hold a typical conversation about anything else.

Which of these is likely to get overlooked in a middle school classroom with 40 kids? Does that mean those symptoms don't "count"? Middle schoolers can be CRUEL - do you blame the kid for learning their peers will make fun of them if they flap their arms or walk on their toes and learn to only do that at home? Do you blame the kid with crippling anxiety for not drawing *any* attention to themselves? Do you blame the kid for trusting their mom enough to say "I hate school so much I wish I could die", but not being able to say that to a school counselor?

But pp I think you are talking more about hiding anxiety and depression, not hiding who you are fundamentally as a person.
Anxiety and depression yes are symptoms of an environment causing stress. But the masking discourse centers around the idea that some kids can appear so neurotypical that their autism - a diagnosis defined by social deficits - is not apparent to anyone else. I think that what you’re saying is that kids can completely hide their behaviors but it causes them stress. I think others are disputing that it’s possible to completely conceal them so they are 100% not evident. I don’t think anyone is disputing that kids are trying (and we all wish they did not have to try). I think people are disputing that they are in any way succeeding.

I think the ASD is evident in subtle cases but it doesn't look like what people think it does. For example a person with ASD may be able to use eye contact, but they are acutely aware of it and it makes them uncomfortable. Some symptoms may not be apparent to others but they are apparent to the person experiencing them.

This is the whole argument.
If someone has asd that is imperceptible to others for the 8-9h a day they are at school - for many years - is that truly autism? I don’t know the answer I’m just clarifying that the masking skepticism is NOT based on skepticism about the desire or the effort to conceal ‘behaviors’, it’s skepticism that any human being would actually be able to successfully pretend all day every day that they don’t have autism to the degree that it is undetected by teachers and classmates.

Just one example: The quiet, socially awkward kid, who is being generally ignored by other kids except for a few nice kids who also are not popular, and who is not a behavior 'problem' for the teacher and gets decent grades may have autism and no one the room would necessarily know it or know what is going on in that kid's world.

But on what basis would that kid have autism? He feels awkward in his heart ?

DP
The following would qualify for an autism diagnosis. Might present as a quiet, shy kid.
- He can't have a normal back and forth conversation and doesn't have an understanding of his own emotions and the emotions of others
- Can't use nonverbal communication properly
- Can't maintain friendships and/or has no close friends
- Has restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, such as lining up toys, need to eat the same food every day, strong fixation on specific area of interest
- Is either very sensitive or insensitive to sensory input (such as indifference to pain/temperature).

right but kids are not successfully 'masking' all those things through middle school

I think a lot of people are assuming that "masking" means the child is indistinguishable from an NT child. That is not true. Masking is not perfect, it's just enough that an untrained person will not immediately think autism, especially if their perception of autism is based on Level 3 or Level 2 presentations.

that’s not what people mean by “masking.” by masking they mean deliberate efforts to hide autistic characteristics. I doubt any small kids or even MS kids are doing much of that. This gets conflated unhelpfully with the way that different environments evoke different behaviors. Also as an earlier PP pointed out, when kids are younger the behavior isn’t apparent because all little kids are learning social skills and it’s more normal to have tantrums etc.

I'm not sure how any of what you wrote is inconsistent with what I wrote above.

[Anonymous]

Btw masking does not mean a person with autism is trying to hide they have autism. It means they have adapted to society's expectations to a certain extent even though it is uncomfortable or not intuitive for them. They may not know they have autism. They may have simply realized people expect them to use eye contact, for example, because adults have told them to look at people when they talk to them. Adults tell this to young children all the time.

[Anonymous]

Don't we all mask to some extent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't we all mask to some extent.

Yes. We all stim to a certain extent. We can't mindread so we don't understand everyone's emotions all the time. That doesn't mean a person doesn't have ASD if their teacher doesn't think they do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP with a highly socially challenged kid who even with that doesn’t officially meet the ASD diagnosis.

I don’t understand how a kid who supposedly has a disorder which is primarily marked by an inability to read social cues can by age six adopt a sufficient number of social behaviors to fly under the radar. Makes no sense to me. And so many posters on here who announce that a diagnostician finally figured out that their MS or Hs kid has ASD. Again, as the parent of a kid who is highly compromised socially, this doesn’t make sense to me.

I mean, there are lots of six year olds that struggle with social cues, and most of them aren't autistic. So it's not that hard for the autistic ones to fly under the radar until they're older and most of their peers have become much more socially sophisticated and they haven't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP with a highly socially challenged kid who even with that doesn’t officially meet the ASD diagnosis.

I don’t understand how a kid who supposedly has a disorder which is primarily marked by an inability to read social cues can by age six adopt a sufficient number of social behaviors to fly under the radar. Makes no sense to me. And so many posters on here who announce that a diagnostician finally figured out that their MS or Hs kid has ASD. Again, as the parent of a kid who is highly compromised socially, this doesn’t make sense to me.

I mean, there are lots of six year olds that struggle with social cues, and most of them aren't autistic. So it's not that hard for the autistic ones to fly under the radar until they're older and most of their peers have become much more socially sophisticated and they haven't.

+1 This is particularly common if they are girls. Autistic girls on average struggle less than autistic boys when they are younger and more than autistic boys when they are older.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP with a highly socially challenged kid who even with that doesn’t officially meet the ASD diagnosis.

I don’t understand how a kid who supposedly has a disorder which is primarily marked by an inability to read social cues can by age six adopt a sufficient number of social behaviors to fly under the radar. Makes no sense to me. And so many posters on here who announce that a diagnostician finally figured out that their MS or Hs kid has ASD. Again, as the parent of a kid who is highly compromised socially, this doesn’t make sense to me.

I mean, there are lots of six year olds that struggle with social cues, and most of them aren't autistic. So it's not that hard for the autistic ones to fly under the radar until they're older and most of their peers have become much more socially sophisticated and they haven't.

+1 This is particularly common if they are girls. Autistic girls on average struggle less than autistic boys when they are younger and more than autistic boys when they are older.

DP. I have heard that first part, that autistic girls struggle less than autistic boys. I haven't heard the second part, that they struggle more than autistic boys when they are older. I'm not sure I've seen that in my anecdotal experience. Can you elaborate?