Biglaw - twelfth-year associate??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

Are you counsel or still an associate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

How much do you make?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

You don't have a big enough book of business at $500k, and they don't want you to have one because you'll be entitled to partnership.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

Maybe it’s not “business reasons” but your attitude?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

You don't have a big enough book of business at $500k, and they don't want you to have one because you'll be entitled to partnership.

I'm counsel making Cravath scale. Yeah, I don't have enough of a book to lateral somewhere comparable as a partner, but most people who were elevated had a smaller book (or no book).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

The leave. Firms would be happy to have you as a partner with that book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

You don't have a big enough book of business at $500k, and they don't want you to have one because you'll be entitled to partnership.

I'm counsel making Cravath scale. Yeah, I don't have enough of a book to lateral somewhere comparable as a partner, but most people who were elevated had a smaller book (or no book).

What you're saying is you'd rather be a perpetual associate at Cravath (eventually those partners who couldn't shine your shoes that you look down on will fire, but until then...) than a partner elsewhere

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

You don't have a big enough book of business at $500k, and they don't want you to have one because you'll be entitled to partnership.

I'm counsel making Cravath scale. Yeah, I don't have enough of a book to lateral somewhere comparable as a partner, but most people who were elevated had a smaller book (or no book).

What you're saying is you'd rather be a perpetual associate at Cravath (eventually those partners who couldn't shine your shoes that you look down on will fire, but until then...) than a partner elsewhere

Um, that's really not what I said. Find me a good firm that will bring me in as a partner and I'll go. So far, I haven't found it.

[Anonymous]

Early retired Biglaw partner here. My abbreviated story: I was counsel for several years before being made partner. I wasn’t promoted because the firm decided after so many years that I was actually a brilliant writer and highly skilled practitioner who billed lots of hours and they just hadn’t notice. Nope. They promoted me only because - more out of dumb luck than anything else - a big client fell into my lap.

That’s how Biglaw works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

You don't have a big enough book of business at $500k, and they don't want you to have one because you'll be entitled to partnership.

I'm counsel making Cravath scale. Yeah, I don't have enough of a book to lateral somewhere comparable as a partner, but most people who were elevated had a smaller book (or no book).

What you're saying is you'd rather be a perpetual associate at Cravath (eventually those partners who couldn't shine your shoes that you look down on will fire, but until then...) than a partner elsewhere

Um, that's really not what I said. Find me a good firm that will bring me in as a partner and I'll go. So far, I haven't found it.

Maybe lateral somewhere as counsel where you have the possibility of being elevated to partner? The path forward could be part of the discussion. Or go solo with low overhead and pocket most of the 500K, if your clients would follow you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

You don't have a big enough book of business at $500k, and they don't want you to have one because you'll be entitled to partnership.

I'm counsel making Cravath scale. Yeah, I don't have enough of a book to lateral somewhere comparable as a partner, but most people who were elevated had a smaller book (or no book).

What you're saying is you'd rather be a perpetual associate at Cravath (eventually those partners who couldn't shine your shoes that you look down on will fire, but until then...) than a partner elsewhere

Um, that's really not what I said. Find me a good firm that will bring me in as a partner and I'll go. So far, I haven't found it.

Maybe lateral somewhere as counsel where you have the possibility of being elevated to partner? The path forward could be part of the discussion. Or go solo with low overhead and pocket most of the 500K, if your clients would follow you.

I think about that almost every day. Too chicken so far. The business will come initially but I don't know how consistent it'll be year over year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posted earlier asking about the 6th year associate lawyer's practice area or specialty.

I am familiar with major accounting firm billings in a specialty (non-audit/non-assurance) area and a first year manager is billing at various rates (depending upon the client & the specific task performed) up to $900 per hour. Very common to give a 30% discount off the $900 hourly rate.

I’m in IP but rates are similar across the firm’s different practice groups. Roughly a third of my hours are discounted by 10-15% for major clients, which comes out to a 4-5% rounding error. The billable total is north of 2000 hr, which goes down to about 1800 hr after discounts and write offs.

Worth noting that 30 firms have $1.2M+ revenues per lawyer. Counsel billing rates are $1200+ and partners bill up to $2000. So plenty of others bringing in much more revenue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a non-partner at a top biglaw firm. I'm in a prominent practice group. I've been practicing for almost two decades, but the first half was not at a firm, so I kind of started over when I came here. My reviews have consistently said my work is at the absolute highest level. I consistently bill 2000 hours. I consistently originate at least $500k. I run matters and manage client relationships. And my group has put me up for partner multiple times, but management rejects me every time entirely for business reasons. It's single-tier; I'm 100% certain I'd be at least an income partner at any two-tier firm. My firm is thrilled to have me stay on, since they're making about $2 mil off me annually. On the one hand, I make more money than 99.9% of the population. On the other hand, it seems like all my peers, and a lot of junior people who couldn't even shine my shoes as a lawyer, have made partner at my firm and others, and it really sucks because of the money, status, and control they get. But I'm basically trapped unless I want to take a huge pay cut to go into government or a nonprofit, which I don't.

The leave. Firms would be happy to have you as a partner with that book.

For top tier firms that is nowhere near enough. You’d need $1.5m book to join a new firm as partner unless they need you to fill a niche. Also the clients that make up that book at your firm might not leave with you. In a top firm $500k just isn’t very much.

[Anonymous]

If you happen to be at a firm that is stingy on partner promotions, but probably happy to have you stay on as a perpetual associate (subject only to a major econ downturn), then by definition you don't have a massive book of business and you're likely far better in the medium term to stay where you are. If you jump ship to another firm with the promise of your current book of business, they will make you non-equity partner, probably at pretty similar comp to what you're making at your current firm (maybe $100-200k more, but rounding errors after taxes when you're already making $600k) but the minute you don't produce the clients you told them you would, you get fired. These days, my firm is only giving lateral partners 6-12 months to produce, depending on how big a hire they were. Versus if you stay put in your current firm, you can keep making that money for probably another 10 years.

The best situation for those types of lawyers (like me!) who are very well liked, do good work but aren't super rainmakers, is just to end up at a firm that has non-equity partner, get the title and stay put in that role for 15 years. But when you join a firm out of law school, you don't always have good transperency into whether a firm is generous with partnership promotion vs not, and honestly a lot of firms changed the rules over the last 15 years (and continue to), so even if you did your diligence back then, you might be SOL now. I was lucky that i lateraled to a new firm as a 6th year and we make everyone partner at year 7. My former firm, some of my peers are still counsel and/or senior associates 16 years later, and were no different than me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you happen to be at a firm that is stingy on partner promotions, but probably happy to have you stay on as a perpetual associate (subject only to a major econ downturn), then by definition you don't have a massive book of business and you're likely far better in the medium term to stay where you are. If you jump ship to another firm with the promise of your current book of business, they will make you non-equity partner, probably at pretty similar comp to what you're making at your current firm (maybe $100-200k more, but rounding errors after taxes when you're already making $600k) but the minute you don't produce the clients you told them you would, you get fired. These days, my firm is only giving lateral partners 6-12 months to produce, depending on how big a hire they were. Versus if you stay put in your current firm, you can keep making that money for probably another 10 years.

The best situation for those types of lawyers (like me!) who are very well liked, do good work but aren't super rainmakers, is just to end up at a firm that has non-equity partner, get the title and stay put in that role for 15 years. But when you join a firm out of law school, you don't always have good transperency into whether a firm is generous with partnership promotion vs not, and honestly a lot of firms changed the rules over the last 15 years (and continue to), so even if you did your diligence back then, you might be SOL now. I was lucky that i lateraled to a new firm as a 6th year and we make everyone partner at year 7. My former firm, some of my peers are still counsel and/or senior associates 16 years later, and were no different than me.

K&E?