Is college now just transactional?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think at 80K a year for a private school, it’s changed what people expect.

OP here. I figured this would be the first response. But, for $80k, don’t you want your kid to be more interesting than just technically capable?

Assuming 4 classes/semester, $80k/yr comes out to about $10k per class. Why spend $10,000 on some fluffy intro to world lit class when you can just read the same half dozen books on your own time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think at 80K a year for a private school, it’s changed what people expect.

OP here. I figured this would be the first response. But, for $80k, don’t you want your kid to be more interesting than just technically capable?

Assuming 4 classes/semester, $80k/yr comes out to about $10k per class. Why spend $10,000 on some fluffy intro to world lit class when you can just read the same half dozen books on your own time?

Obviously, you have not attended such a class at a highly selective school. It’s not just about *reading* the books. No wonder you denigrate such classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think at 80K a year for a private school, it’s changed what people expect.

OP here. I figured this would be the first response. But, for $80k, don’t you want your kid to be more interesting than just technically capable?

Assuming 4 classes/semester, $80k/yr comes out to about $10k per class. Why spend $10,000 on some fluffy intro to world lit class when you can just read the same half dozen books on your own time?

Obviously, you have not attended such a class at a highly selective school. It’s not just about *reading* the books. No wonder you denigrate such classes.

...Or you could also just pay $200 for the same world lit class at a local community college during summer break. Not worth the extra $9800 to have a "prestigious" professor assign the same reading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s partly that academia no longer seems like a viable path. It used to be that if you majored in anthropology or comparative lit or philosophy you could get a PhD and teach (or it seemed like you could). But now almost everyone knows those jobs don’t exist.

But also—I was a humanities major and believe the humanities are dying in part because of the orientation of the disciplines themselves. Where is the study of English going? Literary theory is not a productive direction, imo. What exciting new developments are on the horizon?

Why not? Care to explain, PP?

PP doesn’t need to explain. It’s obvious to most everyone!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Did you take higher level math or physics for your electives? I could write about how it would be nice to integrate these topics into your philosophy discussions to make you more well rounded. I bet the answer is no. It’s okay to accept that people are different. I think the best thing about college was that you no longer had to continue classes you didn’t want to take.

Hahaha, this.

When the English major takes physics as an elective, I’ll believe an engineering major needs extra philosophy.

College is a gateway to a career. check the college box to put the degree on your resume and learn interesting, passionate things on YouTube.

+1

There's plenty of time for a hobby after graduation. No need to major in one.

+2

OP you sound like a trust funder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I understand that college is expensive and that everyone wants to make a lot of money. And, I’m not suggesting that everyone should major in anthropology or philosophy. Instead, I am suggesting that students could double major or minor in such a subject or at least take classes in them. To the contrary, what I’m seeing is a kid with an elective opting for yoga, nutrition, etc. based on the perception that it’s easy (which it is) and it fits their schedule (nothing in the morning or on Friday), when they could have chosen a serious class in the humanities or liberal arts. I’d like to see a pre-med, business, or computer science major talk to me about how their Buddhism class influenced their thinking about life or their future profession. Or, how different philosophical viewpoints on love impacted their thinking about relationships.

I don't know what kids you're talking to but I'm the PP who posted her DD is majoring in anthropology and a minor in philosophy. She is at UVA where they are required to take gen eds, and that's how she found herself in an anthropology class, which she was absolutely inspired by. This semester she is taking two religion classes, one anthropology and one philosophy. She loves all these classes, especially the discussion classes that she has for each class. She has many friends in her classes, none of whom are anthropology, religion or philosophy majors. Her business major roommate is finishing up a Buddism class right now.

You are correct that the engineering school kids are not taking these classes, but those in the college of arts and sciences at UVA at least are required to take classes across a broad range of topics, as well as a language (unless they test out) and two intensive writing focused classes. I'm sure you'll all say but what is your DD going to do for work when she graduates, and yeah that is less clear than if she were a CS major or in the comm school but I believe that college is a time to find yourself and find what you love and then figure out where to go from there. She has an internship in the corporate world so at the same time she's getting real world experience and exposure to career options that way.

Conversely, my nephew who was an econ major at a top 20 school (graduated this past spring) absolutely hates his high paying finance job. He went into the field because he knew he'd make alot of money, not because he had a passion for it. He sits in front of a computer screen all day and says its soul sucking. I can't personally imagine spending my life in a job like that no matter what the money is that I bring in.

1. Your DD has a corporate internship as an anthropology major? That sounds incredibly rare. I’m guessing you or DH used your connections, right?

2. Your nephew sounds like a brat. Most everyone dislikes their jobs and work for pay. He needs to suck it up and appreciate that he’s in such a high paying job — much better than taking some “hobby” job at an NPO or a think tank and then coming on here in his 30s when he realizes he can’t buy a SFH in a desired school pyramid. He should be grateful that he’s making so much money so young! I bet 99% of college grads would kill to be in his potion.

[Anonymous]

The rich vs. everyone else divide has become too great in this country.
The rich are hoarding all the resources.
Only way to get ahead is by getting into high pay industries or starting your own successful company

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I understand that college is expensive and that everyone wants to make a lot of money. And, I’m not suggesting that everyone should major in anthropology or philosophy. Instead, I am suggesting that students could double major or minor in such a subject or at least take classes in them. To the contrary, what I’m seeing is a kid with an elective opting for yoga, nutrition, etc. based on the perception that it’s easy (which it is) and it fits their schedule (nothing in the morning or on Friday), when they could have chosen a serious class in the humanities or liberal arts. I’d like to see a pre-med, business, or computer science major talk to me about how their Buddhism class influenced their thinking about life or their future profession. Or, how different philosophical viewpoints on love impacted their thinking about relationships.

I don't know what kids you're talking to but I'm the PP who posted her DD is majoring in anthropology and a minor in philosophy. She is at UVA where they are required to take gen eds, and that's how she found herself in an anthropology class, which she was absolutely inspired by. This semester she is taking two religion classes, one anthropology and one philosophy. She loves all these classes, especially the discussion classes that she has for each class. She has many friends in her classes, none of whom are anthropology, religion or philosophy majors. Her business major roommate is finishing up a Buddism class right now.

You are correct that the engineering school kids are not taking these classes, but those in the college of arts and sciences at UVA at least are required to take classes across a broad range of topics, as well as a language (unless they test out) and two intensive writing focused classes. I'm sure you'll all say but what is your DD going to do for work when she graduates, and yeah that is less clear than if she were a CS major or in the comm school but I believe that college is a time to find yourself and find what you love and then figure out where to go from there. She has an internship in the corporate world so at the same time she's getting real world experience and exposure to career options that way.

Conversely, my nephew who was an econ major at a top 20 school (graduated this past spring) absolutely hates his high paying finance job. He went into the field because he knew he'd make alot of money, not because he had a passion for it. He sits in front of a computer screen all day and says its soul sucking. I can't personally imagine spending my life in a job like that no matter what the money is that I bring in.

LMFAO I thought your DD loves anthropology and philosophy, yet get an internship in a money grabbing corporate world not related to anthropology or philosophy.

What a hypocrite . Make up your mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I understand that college is expensive and that everyone wants to make a lot of money. And, I’m not suggesting that everyone should major in anthropology or philosophy. Instead, I am suggesting that students could double major or minor in such a subject or at least take classes in them. To the contrary, what I’m seeing is a kid with an elective opting for yoga, nutrition, etc. based on the perception that it’s easy (which it is) and it fits their schedule (nothing in the morning or on Friday), when they could have chosen a serious class in the humanities or liberal arts. I’d like to see a pre-med, business, or computer science major talk to me about how their Buddhism class influenced their thinking about life or their future profession. Or, how different philosophical viewpoints on love impacted their thinking about relationships.

College level nutrition isn't "easy" and it's also an essential skill that more Americans should have knowledge of. On the same note, there's nothing wrong with yoga. Maybe they want to relax after being stressed out in their other classes.

You can earn college credit for yoga!?

Of course. Colleges often have physical Ed requirements satisfied by one course. It’s where I learned to lift weights and run longer distance. I’ve been grateful for that class for decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I understand that college is expensive and that everyone wants to make a lot of money. And, I’m not suggesting that everyone should major in anthropology or philosophy. Instead, I am suggesting that students could double major or minor in such a subject or at least take classes in them. To the contrary, what I’m seeing is a kid with an elective opting for yoga, nutrition, etc. based on the perception that it’s easy (which it is) and it fits their schedule (nothing in the morning or on Friday), when they could have chosen a serious class in the humanities or liberal arts. I’d like to see a pre-med, business, or computer science major talk to me about how their Buddhism class influenced their thinking about life or their future profession. Or, how different philosophical viewpoints on love impacted their thinking about relationships.

I don't know what kids you're talking to but I'm the PP who posted her DD is majoring in anthropology and a minor in philosophy. She is at UVA where they are required to take gen eds, and that's how she found herself in an anthropology class, which she was absolutely inspired by. This semester she is taking two religion classes, one anthropology and one philosophy. She loves all these classes, especially the discussion classes that she has for each class. She has many friends in her classes, none of whom are anthropology, religion or philosophy majors. Her business major roommate is finishing up a Buddism class right now.

You are correct that the engineering school kids are not taking these classes, but those in the college of arts and sciences at UVA at least are required to take classes across a broad range of topics, as well as a language (unless they test out) and two intensive writing focused classes. I'm sure you'll all say but what is your DD going to do for work when she graduates, and yeah that is less clear than if she were a CS major or in the comm school but I believe that college is a time to find yourself and find what you love and then figure out where to go from there. She has an internship in the corporate world so at the same time she's getting real world experience and exposure to career options that way.

Conversely, my nephew who was an econ major at a top 20 school (graduated this past spring) absolutely hates his high paying finance job. He went into the field because he knew he'd make alot of money, not because he had a passion for it. He sits in front of a computer screen all day and says its soul sucking. I can't personally imagine spending my life in a job like that no matter what the money is that I bring in.

1. Your DD has a corporate internship as an anthropology major? That sounds incredibly rare. I’m guessing you or DH used your connections, right?

2. Your nephew sounds like a brat. Most everyone dislikes their jobs and work for pay. He needs to suck it up and appreciate that he’s in such a high paying job — much better than taking some “hobby” job at an NPO or a think tank and then coming on here in his 30s when he realizes he can’t buy a SFH in a desired school pyramid. He should be grateful that he’s making so much money so young! I bet 99% of college grads would kill to be in his potion.

Been a while since my Wall Street analyst days, but our investment bank had probably a 40% quit rate after the first year with analysts. Perhaps it is different now, but imagine it is still fairly high. The actual work is mind-numbing...constantly creating pitch decks and financial models for unsolicited pitches that go nowhere, with minor typos and minor modeling errors looked at as mortal sins. From the outside seems exciting and glamorous, but feel like the profession would be better off making it clear that you will have 2 years of hell. So many kids think they know what are they getting into...but then they are in it and bail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I understand that college is expensive and that everyone wants to make a lot of money. And, I’m not suggesting that everyone should major in anthropology or philosophy. Instead, I am suggesting that students could double major or minor in such a subject or at least take classes in them. To the contrary, what I’m seeing is a kid with an elective opting for yoga, nutrition, etc. based on the perception that it’s easy (which it is) and it fits their schedule (nothing in the morning or on Friday), when they could have chosen a serious class in the humanities or liberal arts. I’d like to see a pre-med, business, or computer science major talk to me about how their Buddhism class influenced their thinking about life or their future profession. Or, how different philosophical viewpoints on love impacted their thinking about relationships.

I don't know what kids you're talking to but I'm the PP who posted her DD is majoring in anthropology and a minor in philosophy. She is at UVA where they are required to take gen eds, and that's how she found herself in an anthropology class, which she was absolutely inspired by. This semester she is taking two religion classes, one anthropology and one philosophy. She loves all these classes, especially the discussion classes that she has for each class. She has many friends in her classes, none of whom are anthropology, religion or philosophy majors. Her business major roommate is finishing up a Buddism class right now.

You are correct that the engineering school kids are not taking these classes, but those in the college of arts and sciences at UVA at least are required to take classes across a broad range of topics, as well as a language (unless they test out) and two intensive writing focused classes. I'm sure you'll all say but what is your DD going to do for work when she graduates, and yeah that is less clear than if she were a CS major or in the comm school but I believe that college is a time to find yourself and find what you love and then figure out where to go from there. She has an internship in the corporate world so at the same time she's getting real world experience and exposure to career options that way.

Conversely, my nephew who was an econ major at a top 20 school (graduated this past spring) absolutely hates his high paying finance job. He went into the field because he knew he'd make alot of money, not because he had a passion for it. He sits in front of a computer screen all day and says its soul sucking. I can't personally imagine spending my life in a job like that no matter what the money is that I bring in.

1. Your DD has a corporate internship as an anthropology major? That sounds incredibly rare. I’m guessing you or DH used your connections, right?

2. Your nephew sounds like a brat. Most everyone dislikes their jobs and work for pay. He needs to suck it up and appreciate that he’s in such a high paying job — much better than taking some “hobby” job at an NPO or a think tank and then coming on here in his 30s when he realizes he can’t buy a SFH in a desired school pyramid. He should be grateful that he’s making so much money so young! I bet 99% of college grads would kill to be in his potion.

Been a while since my Wall Street analyst days, but our investment bank had probably a 40% quit rate after the first year with analysts. Perhaps it is different now, but imagine it is still fairly high. The actual work is mind-numbing...constantly creating pitch decks and financial models for unsolicited pitches that go nowhere, with minor typos and minor modeling errors looked at as mortal sins. From the outside seems exciting and glamorous, but feel like the profession would be better off making it clear that you will have 2 years of hell. So many kids think they know what are they getting into...but then they are in it and bail.

what a news!
there's no easy job that especially pay you high $$$

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it just me or is college now more transactional than it was 20-30 years ago? It seems like students and parents are overwhelmingly focused on ROI, career earnings, next-step professional schools, etc. Extracurriculars and internships are all about landing a great job. Classes outside of one’s career path are a “waste of time,” and kids seek classes that are “easy” and “fit their lifestyle schedule.” I don’t hear kids talk with any excitement about a philosophy, religion, anthropology, fine arts, or history class. I don’t hear about kids working on research papers. I don’t hear kids grappling with social and political issues. Is it just me or has college become just another hurdle to adulthood that many feel they must jump, but really have no genuine interest in?

Nope, it was the same for us way back when. I don't encourage my kids to do fluffy majors. I will not pay for a fun major. I will pay for one that leads to a career, as my parents said.

+100

College is for the sole purpose of getting a high-paying job or getting into a lucrative grad school. Full stop.

Not at my house. I want my kids to be wise and good and happy, as well as able to work. A liberal arts education or a humanities major encourages the development of curiosity and to engage the world (including our transactional economy) in a thoughtful way. I'm encouraging my kids to study what they want to study for their BA/BS. After that, they can figure out how to make a living. If they can do that doing what they love, more power to them. If not, a 22-25 year is better able to choose a career than an 18 year old. Law school and med school and nursing school and grad school are there when they get out of undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I understand that college is expensive and that everyone wants to make a lot of money. And, I’m not suggesting that everyone should major in anthropology or philosophy. Instead, I am suggesting that students could double major or minor in such a subject or at least take classes in them. To the contrary, what I’m seeing is a kid with an elective opting for yoga, nutrition, etc. based on the perception that it’s easy (which it is) and it fits their schedule (nothing in the morning or on Friday), when they could have chosen a serious class in the humanities or liberal arts. I’d like to see a pre-med, business, or computer science major talk to me about how their Buddhism class influenced their thinking about life or their future profession. Or, how different philosophical viewpoints on love impacted their thinking about relationships.

College level nutrition isn't "easy" and it's also an essential skill that more Americans should have knowledge of. On the same note, there's nothing wrong with yoga. Maybe they want to relax after being stressed out in their other classes.

You can earn college credit for yoga!?

Why not? I went to big state school in the 90s. We were required to take 4 physical fitness classes (within my engineering major, at least). I took soccer, volleyball, bowling, and tennis. I actually had to switch my bowling class to pass/fail because I was so bad at it. The prof clearly did not consider my scores in the 80s and 90s to be worth an A!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s partly that academia no longer seems like a viable path. It used to be that if you majored in anthropology or comparative lit or philosophy you could get a PhD and teach (or it seemed like you could). But now almost everyone knows those jobs don’t exist.

But also—I was a humanities major and believe the humanities are dying in part because of the orientation of the disciplines themselves. Where is the study of English going? Literary theory is not a productive direction, imo. What exciting new developments are on the horizon?

Why not? Care to explain, PP?

To be honest, because much of it is BS. (I had a professor, a very admired one, say essentially this in a seminar once, so ). Applying literary theory, as far as I could tell, was about learning to write in tortured, complex language about what would be obvious if expressed simply and clearly. Plus, it was the hot direction for the study of English literature in, what, the 1950s? And feminist theory became big in English departments in the 1970s. And that was essentially what I was studying 30 years later at a top English department. What has happened since? Digital humanities? What are the big breakthroughs and knowledge gains of the past half century in English literature? Can you think of a single new idea?

Meanwhile, the social sciences have moved the other way. Even philosophy, which used to seem like the quintessential "useless" major, has a lot of connections to cognition and AI and human computer interactions--it has become more and more relevant to our present day.

I didn’t know that English had to “progress” to be relevant to our lives. The ability to identify plot lines, flesh out a character profile, argue an interpretation, connect a book to the author’s biography, times and similar works, empathize with the characters (or not) and write well seem equally relevant today as yesterday.

Yes, all that stuff is lovely and fun and inspiring. That's what high school English was like for me, and why I wanted to study it in college. But that is not, in my experience, at my highly regarded university, what college-level English was about.

[Anonymous]

Part of the problem is the way that corporations hire. There was a time that you could major in history and get a good job. For example, Sam Palmisano was a history major that went into sales at IBM and became CEO. I wonder if he would be hired today. Seems that many corporations want to hire students that have technical skills (engineering, business ...) rather than students that have potential that they will train. I believe in a liberal arts education but it can be tricky to get the first job, and college is stupid expensive.