Which school should we look at with this LSAT score

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With a 172 and 3.8, just a few years ago an applicant most likely would have been accepted to multiple (if the not the majority) of the T14 schools. However, over the last few years things have changed somewhat dramatically in law school admissions. The new digital take home format of the LSAT has contributed to a surge in high scorers, along with extremely lax grading policies during Covid, and combined with a record number of applicants to law schools during Covid, have sent LSAT and GPA medians at the T14 schools soaring. It is not uncommon nowadays to hear stories about people with 170+ LSATs and 3.9+ GPAs being shutout of the T14 altogether whereas just three years ago they would have been admitted. In general, top law schools nowadays do have an active preference for those who have a few years of work experience, which does disadvantage applicants applying straight from undergrad. It’s tricky to speculate, but I don’t think a 172 and 3.8 (especially from a KJD) will be a slam dunk for a T14 school.

This is helpful info, thank you. (Perhaps a little bit analogous to what has happened in the past two years for undergrad admissions.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With a 172 and 3.8, just a few years ago an applicant most likely would have been accepted to multiple (if the not the majority) of the T14 schools. However, over the last few years things have changed somewhat dramatically in law school admissions. The new digital take home format of the LSAT has contributed to a surge in high scorers, along with extremely lax grading policies during Covid, and combined with a record number of applicants to law schools during Covid, have sent LSAT and GPA medians at the T14 schools soaring. It is not uncommon nowadays to hear stories about people with 170+ LSATs and 3.9+ GPAs being shutout of the T14 altogether whereas just three years ago they would have been admitted. In general, top law schools nowadays do have an active preference for those who have a few years of work experience, which does disadvantage applicants applying straight from undergrad. It’s tricky to speculate, but I don’t think a 172 and 3.8 (especially from a KJD) will be a slam dunk for a T14 school.

Isn’t Covid effect gone for kids applying this fall? If grading and testing is back to normal, the numbers should drop too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a lawyer pushing 50 who lives and works in Dcumlandia. I routinely advise kids considering law school. FWIW:

1. Where does your kid claim residency? Apply to any law school where in-state tuition is an option. (Tell me the state, and I’ll give you my two cents.)

2. Where does your kid ultimately want to work? What state? If they are aiming for NY or CA, they might want to go to school there. Sometimes it helps with the bar.

3. What do they want to do? If they are willing to sell their soul to big law, then aim for a top 10 school. If they want to do social justice work, school rank doesn’t matter as much (their grades and networking/internships during law school matter more). Certain fellowships are useful. Do they want to be a fed? School doesn’t matter as much.

If they don’t know what they want to do, they probably should not bother with law school unless they get a full ride or can easily commute to state school with merit aid. Truly.

Note: some guidance changes if your kid isn’t white. Diversity applicants have more wiggle room in terms of resume when firms and Feds are hiring diverse candidates.

To point 1. this rarely is helpful to manage costs. It was cheaper for me to go to a different T14 with modest aid over UVA.

To point 3., that does not square with my experience. Public interest jobs are as snobby, and often actually much snobbier, than big law.

Also, if you plan to do non profit work, you will get your loans fully forgiven through PSLF and similar programs.

In summary, PP, you're very out of date, and maybe should stop giving so much advice to kids considering law school if you're not going to catch up with the times.

I disagree.

In-state tuition is typically less than whatever merit you might receive elsewhere—particularly if you get merit aid at your in-state school. It’s even more of a bargain if you can commute. I commuted an hour each way to minimize costs. I stand by my advice.

Re: public interest - I am a public interest lawyer. After decades on the frontlines in direct legal services followed by policy advocacy, I have a nice six figure salary at the national level. I’ve recruited for positions ranging from entry level to senior leadership. I’m most impressed by experience, not the school.

The best thing you can do if you want to pursue a career in public interest law is get an equal Justice works fellowship. Truly. That, followed by a certain career path where you gain niche subject matter expertise will set you on the best path.

Having said that, your school doesn’t matter if you plan to do legal aid or local government work (prosecute, PD). In fact, your state school is likely your best bet.

You want to network? Get involved with your bar. Better yet: become a law student liaison with the ABA entity related to your preferred sector. ABA staff and members have the best networks and can open doors.

Re: PSLF - It’s been a rocky road (and was nearly cut by the Obama administration). I wouldn’t count on it long-term.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is this a “we” situation?

Agree. Unless you are also planning to go back to law school, there is no “we” in any of this process. Land. The. Helicopter.

For god’s sake. I understand this is completely her choice. She just got the results and we’ve been discussing affordability of various school options.

You’re completely missing our point. Of course it’s her “choice “ where to go. We are all saying she should figure out what her options are on her own.

Butt out, mom! Let your kid live her own life. I'm guessing she doesn't even want to go to law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a lawyer pushing 50 who lives and works in Dcumlandia. I routinely advise kids considering law school. FWIW:

1. Where does your kid claim residency? Apply to any law school where in-state tuition is an option. (Tell me the state, and I’ll give you my two cents.)

2. Where does your kid ultimately want to work? What state? If they are aiming for NY or CA, they might want to go to school there. Sometimes it helps with the bar.

3. What do they want to do? If they are willing to sell their soul to big law, then aim for a top 10 school. If they want to do social justice work, school rank doesn’t matter as much (their grades and networking/internships during law school matter more). Certain fellowships are useful. Do they want to be a fed? School doesn’t matter as much.

If they don’t know what they want to do, they probably should not bother with law school unless they get a full ride or can easily commute to state school with merit aid. Truly.

Note: some guidance changes if your kid isn’t white. Diversity applicants have more wiggle room in terms of resume when firms and Feds are hiring diverse candidates.

To point 1. this rarely is helpful to manage costs. It was cheaper for me to go to a different T14 with modest aid over UVA.

To point 3., that does not square with my experience. Public interest jobs are as snobby, and often actually much snobbier, than big law.

Also, if you plan to do non profit work, you will get your loans fully forgiven through PSLF and similar programs.

In summary, PP, you're very out of date, and maybe should stop giving so much advice to kids considering law school if you're not going to catch up with the times.

I am a public interest lawyer (represent kids in the foster care system). I am just learning today that I have such a snobby. As to PSLF, you do know that you need to make 120 qualifying payments before receiving loan forgiveness, right? And private loans are not forgiven. Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do.

[Anonymous]

UVA Law now costs $71,500 for out of state tuition

In-state is $68,500

If you can get into UVA, you can get a lot more merit aid than $3,000 somewhere else

To the original poster, don’t listen to people whose law school admissions knowledge is 20+ years out of date

Law School Data has a crowd-sourced version of Naviance scattergrams. And the Law School Admissions subforum on Reddit has tons of current info

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:UVA Law now costs $71,500 for out of state tuition

In-state is $68,500

If you can get into UVA, you can get a lot more merit aid than $3,000 somewhere else

To the original poster, don’t listen to people whose law school admissions knowledge is 20+ years out of date

Law School Data has a crowd-sourced version of Naviance scattergrams. And the Law School Admissions subforum on Reddit has tons of current info

That’s just not true.

Obviously you should cast a wide net and run the numbers.

But I can’t understand why you are throwing around absolutes that seemingly suggest you shouldn’t bother with state schools. That’s just befuddling, particularly if you can live at home and commute to a state school. Anyone with half a brain does a cost analysis that includes living expenses.

Aim high, but ultimately run the numbers. Don’t fall into the trap of going into significant debt for a certain school. Unless you are hell bent on selling your soul to big law, it’s just not worth…and it’s not necessary.

Anyone who tells you need a top tier school to do public interest law is clueless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a lawyer pushing 50 who lives and works in Dcumlandia. I routinely advise kids considering law school. FWIW:

1. Where does your kid claim residency? Apply to any law school where in-state tuition is an option. (Tell me the state, and I’ll give you my two cents.)

2. Where does your kid ultimately want to work? What state? If they are aiming for NY or CA, they might want to go to school there. Sometimes it helps with the bar.

3. What do they want to do? If they are willing to sell their soul to big law, then aim for a top 10 school. If they want to do social justice work, school rank doesn’t matter as much (their grades and networking/internships during law school matter more). Certain fellowships are useful. Do they want to be a fed? School doesn’t matter as much.

If they don’t know what they want to do, they probably should not bother with law school unless they get a full ride or can easily commute to state school with merit aid. Truly.

Note: some guidance changes if your kid isn’t white. Diversity applicants have more wiggle room in terms of resume when firms and Feds are hiring diverse candidates.

To point 1. this rarely is helpful to manage costs. It was cheaper for me to go to a different T14 with modest aid over UVA.

To point 3., that does not square with my experience. Public interest jobs are as snobby, and often actually much snobbier, than big law.

Also, if you plan to do non profit work, you will get your loans fully forgiven through PSLF and similar programs.

In summary, PP, you're very out of date, and maybe should stop giving so much advice to kids considering law school if you're not going to catch up with the times.

I am a public interest lawyer (represent kids in the foster care system). I am just learning today that I have such a snobby. As to PSLF, you do know that you need to make 120 qualifying payments before receiving loan forgiveness, right? And private loans are not forgiven. Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do.

+1

I wouldn’t listen to that poster.

PSLF is tricky and it nearly disappeared. A heckuva lot of coalitions fought hard to save it when Dems were seemingly inclined to toss it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is this a “we” situation?

Agree. Unless you are also planning to go back to law school, there is no “we” in any of this process. Land. The. Helicopter.

For god’s sake. I understand this is completely her choice. She just got the results and we’ve been discussing affordability of various school options.

You’re completely missing our point. Of course it’s her “choice “ where to go. We are all saying she should figure out what her options are on her own.

Butt out, mom! Let your kid live her own life. I'm guessing she doesn't even want to go to law school.

Your magic 8 ball told you?

-np

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a lawyer pushing 50 who lives and works in Dcumlandia. I routinely advise kids considering law school. FWIW:

1. Where does your kid claim residency? Apply to any law school where in-state tuition is an option. (Tell me the state, and I’ll give you my two cents.)

2. Where does your kid ultimately want to work? What state? If they are aiming for NY or CA, they might want to go to school there. Sometimes it helps with the bar.

3. What do they want to do? If they are willing to sell their soul to big law, then aim for a top 10 school. If they want to do social justice work, school rank doesn’t matter as much (their grades and networking/internships during law school matter more). Certain fellowships are useful. Do they want to be a fed? School doesn’t matter as much.

If they don’t know what they want to do, they probably should not bother with law school unless they get a full ride or can easily commute to state school with merit aid. Truly.

Note: some guidance changes if your kid isn’t white. Diversity applicants have more wiggle room in terms of resume when firms and Feds are hiring diverse candidates.

To point 1. this rarely is helpful to manage costs. It was cheaper for me to go to a different T14 with modest aid over UVA.

To point 3., that does not square with my experience. Public interest jobs are as snobby, and often actually much snobbier, than big law.

Also, if you plan to do non profit work, you will get your loans fully forgiven through PSLF and similar programs.

In summary, PP, you're very out of date, and maybe should stop giving so much advice to kids considering law school if you're not going to catch up with the times.

I am a public interest lawyer (represent kids in the foster care system). I am just learning today that I have such a snobby. As to PSLF, you do know that you need to make 120 qualifying payments before receiving loan forgiveness, right? And private loans are not forgiven. Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do.

Who takes put private loans for law school????

[Anonymous]

I think time off between college and law school can be great for people so consider that too

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think time off between college and law school can be great for people so consider that too

Yep.

Tons of kids head to DC to get experience on the Hill or with an advocacy org before deciding whether a JD or another degree is needed. Others secure a fellowship abroad.

[Anonymous]

Depends if URM or not. If URM apply top 5. If not chose 2 of top 4 and aim for 7-14 with GW as a backup.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve worked in BigLaw and in public interest. School rank matters a great deal for both, if you want to be in the running for highly sought after jobs. Law is very focused on prestige. Go to the highest ranked school possible given your options.

I have a similar career arc and am a Stanford law grad and parent of a recent HLS grad. Agree with the above. I would suggest your DD apply to all T14 schools except Yale and Stanford (admissions are just too crazy and unpredictable) and NYU and Columbia (COL too high.) Go to the highest ranked school that gives her the best aid.

To the "land the helicopter" posters, some of us with young adult kids actually have good relationships with them so they ask us for advice, or will at least hear us out when we ask if they would like advice. That doesn't mean they will do what we would like them to do -- or even that we have a preference for what we'd like them to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think time off between college and law school can be great for people so consider that too

+1. Post-college work experience is a plus, both for law school admission and for the better context, for understanding the business world, for later practice.