Today is the day! (AAP appeals)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my 2nd grader was in the pool, had high test scores but low GBRS because I don't think his teacher really sees his abilities (despite telling us that other students ask him for help frequently). We appealed, including a high WISC result and addressing the low GBRS scores but he still didn't get in. Guess that teacher input or lack thereof, means a lot. Hope he gets one who will advocate for him next year.

Same, not a great GBRS - 99th% on both cogat (139) and NNAT (152), rejected on appeal (2nd grade).

same here, 3Fs 1 O not great school samples. Kid is in the Advanced Math group in class. Sciences not an issue at all! All kids in his Advanced Math group got into Level IV and moving away to Center school, his best friend included. Such a ridiculous system.

Cogat 122, Wisc 124. Appealed with lots of evidence of Advanced aptitude of kid.

So let's say ds was borderline (which I strongly disagree even though standardized scores suggest so), even then he needs full time AAP so he can push himself to a higher level.

Advanced Academics should be offered to all kids who either the teacher or parent think needs them. A continuous evaluation can be done during the school year again and if any kid/parent want to opt out, then they should be allowed to do so.

I hope some sense dawns in the school administrators of this process. There are so many excluded students that can really benefit from a higher curriculum.

I don’t think it should be just parent wanting it. Just look at how honors is going in middle school.

I am not sure how honors is going. But what my ds is learning is very very basic in 2nd grade. He was in private school in kg and was taught multiplication and division and he grasped it. Public school curriculum is quite far behind. So unless the kid is very slow in learning or parents not able to sit with the kid, all other kids can benefit from an advanced curriculum.

There is a big jump for every student between 2nd grade and 3rd grade. Whether in AAP or gen ed.

Public school doesn't teach multiplication and division in kindergarten but overall the public school curriculum is generally on par with or ahead of private school curriculum.

How will it jump suddenly from 2nd to 3rd? DS is pretty bored in his class and we supplement a lot outside school. And this summer will be prepping him for Cogat so he gets into level IV!!!

Never did it so far, but came to know there were kids who put in a lot of work and got very high scores.

So if that is the only way, will get that covered.

Not the most intelligent system but will play by it.

Getting a high Cogat score is not the only way into Level IV. However, even more importantly, a high Cogat score doesn’t guarantee a student is a good fit for Level IV and will thrive in AAP.

Yes, not the only way but one way. Why leave prepping your kid if that’s possible and allowed

It’s more accurate to say that it’s not disallowed.

Frankly, prepping is a waste of time. Cogat is only one of many considerations that the selection committee takes under advisement. If your kid is truly bright, then they’ll do fine on the Cogat without help.

Don't know any kid around me who got into AAP without prepping! I learned about this whole process very late. My kid with a little push can do extremely well.

We moved to FCPS and DD took the Cogat with zero prep and scored a 145+

Sure, gifted kid. I said none around me, as per input from 5 parents.

Neat. We didn’t prep for the Cogat either (didn’t know that was even a “thing” with the first kid). Two kids scored high AAP-worthy numbers. Sorry. I know it makes you feel better to think the parents whose kids got in gamed the system. Shrug.

It’s ok for anonymous parents to think what they want. There are gifted kids who need no prep and there are smart kids who may need prep. Both are ok and both are good

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i feel it's so crazy that all of this is behind a veiled curtain - like, we get it, it's the whole child you're looking at, but there are definitely "cut-offs" they have determined.

and if a teacher was new or didn't know what papers to assign and collect/ What if a teacher was overwhelmed by personal circumstances and was not really invested in the kids. What if a teacher had a predetermined notion that one race is more gifted than another. There is too much weight on what the teacher says.

This whole program is ass-backwards. It should open up the floodgates and all students should be allowed - no, encouraged to have higher level thinking and challenges. as they grow, we see which kids thrive and which kids need more support and then support them so that they can succeed. This whole thing of pitting kids against each other and having parents prep and train their kids is asinine. I found out after taking my kid to take his WISC that the other parents prepped and found tests online and practiced with their kid. I asked the GMU people if there was anything i needed to do (after learning parents prepped their kids for COGAT) and she said no, there was no way to prep, it was a one-on-one evaluation that they would either know or wouldn't... clearly that was not 100% true.

Or maybe your kid is getting their needs met and will do fine in the gen ed classroom. You sound like a conspiracy theorist; not a good look.

Where is the conspiracy? my child told me he was bored. my neighbors and colleagues told me they prepped their kids. what is the conspiracy?

i taught him at home for the past 2 years through COVID. I know where he is. my daughter got into level IV with less, but higher GBRS - her teacher advocated for her. My sons did not and told me at the beginning of the year that he was struggling and i asked what she was talking about because i had received no work at home indicating that he was struggling. neither did she - it was just her "feeling", yet all of his work was complete and correct.

And just so you know, I've been in education for 25 years here in FCPS, Alexandria and Arlington. You bet your butt that some of these teachers treat different races differently, You're kidding yourself if you don't think that's the truth. I have sat in meeting after CT meeting, after administrative meeting where it was obvious what the teachers were saying without saying it (and some flat out did). I'm Caucasian and I'm seriously offended by comments made by my colleagues. I have reported them, but have learned to just keep quiet because you get in more trouble repeating the racists than the racists do making their comments. My child's needs may be met at the school, but he is not being challenged.

"advanced" curriculum should be open to all elementary students - just like honors is in middle school "open enrollment". why do we limit their growth and education in elementary only to open the floodgates in middle school?

additionally, i'm not worried what the "look" is. I'll advocate for my children no matter what. You can worry about what people think of you on an online forum.

Honors open enrollment is not great because you have kids below grade level who decide to take it and struggle and then content gets watered down.

yes, i can see that argument, but that's what is happening in the regular classrooms as well. that is what the administration at our kids' schools told us. "due to the covid pandemic, many students lost or were not able to stay on track and now, we have to catch them up". meanwhile, kids who did succeed in covid, are left to the side. it's the whole closing the gap, but they bring the top down instead of bringing the bottom up.

As a teacher, I truly think there are not enough ESOL/Sped support in ES. ES parents don’t realize but secondary schools have specialized subject classes for ESOL students. So Level 1-2 ESOL students are in special classes for core subjects. Sped kids are in team taught or self contained. At our ES the ESOL is lucky to meet with kids for 20 mins a day cause they have multiple grade levels. SPED is a scheduling nightmare. If the county focused on getting the resources to these kids at a younger age, perhaps Gen Ed could be more challenging.

Parent here (not a teacher, but have teachers in my family) -- this is it right here (note above). We're expecting teachers to teach ESOL, SPED, on grade and above grade level every day. We're asking them to meet everyone's needs in one classroom and that is nearly impossible. But... the kids above grade level are left unchallenged because they will take care of themselves. I'm not blaming the teacher. It's survival mode. I'm at a center school with three assistant principals, but no reading specialist, nor math specialist. And the hate on this page for programs like AAP is wild. We should meet the needs of all students, and that should include expanding AAP. Kids with perfect (or near perfect) GBRS scores and 99% on the exams shouldn't be left out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i feel it's so crazy that all of this is behind a veiled curtain - like, we get it, it's the whole child you're looking at, but there are definitely "cut-offs" they have determined.

and if a teacher was new or didn't know what papers to assign and collect/ What if a teacher was overwhelmed by personal circumstances and was not really invested in the kids. What if a teacher had a predetermined notion that one race is more gifted than another. There is too much weight on what the teacher says.

This whole program is ass-backwards. It should open up the floodgates and all students should be allowed - no, encouraged to have higher level thinking and challenges. as they grow, we see which kids thrive and which kids need more support and then support them so that they can succeed. This whole thing of pitting kids against each other and having parents prep and train their kids is asinine. I found out after taking my kid to take his WISC that the other parents prepped and found tests online and practiced with their kid. I asked the GMU people if there was anything i needed to do (after learning parents prepped their kids for COGAT) and she said no, there was no way to prep, it was a one-on-one evaluation that they would either know or wouldn't... clearly that was not 100% true.

Or maybe your kid is getting their needs met and will do fine in the gen ed classroom. You sound like a conspiracy theorist; not a good look.

Where is the conspiracy? my child told me he was bored. my neighbors and colleagues told me they prepped their kids. what is the conspiracy?

i taught him at home for the past 2 years through COVID. I know where he is. my daughter got into level IV with less, but higher GBRS - her teacher advocated for her. My sons did not and told me at the beginning of the year that he was struggling and i asked what she was talking about because i had received no work at home indicating that he was struggling. neither did she - it was just her "feeling", yet all of his work was complete and correct.

And just so you know, I've been in education for 25 years here in FCPS, Alexandria and Arlington. You bet your butt that some of these teachers treat different races differently, You're kidding yourself if you don't think that's the truth. I have sat in meeting after CT meeting, after administrative meeting where it was obvious what the teachers were saying without saying it (and some flat out did). I'm Caucasian and I'm seriously offended by comments made by my colleagues. I have reported them, but have learned to just keep quiet because you get in more trouble repeating the racists than the racists do making their comments. My child's needs may be met at the school, but he is not being challenged.

"advanced" curriculum should be open to all elementary students - just like honors is in middle school "open enrollment". why do we limit their growth and education in elementary only to open the floodgates in middle school?

additionally, i'm not worried what the "look" is. I'll advocate for my children no matter what. You can worry about what people think of you on an online forum.

Honors open enrollment is not great because you have kids below grade level who decide to take it and struggle and then content gets watered down.

yes, i can see that argument, but that's what is happening in the regular classrooms as well. that is what the administration at our kids' schools told us. "due to the covid pandemic, many students lost or were not able to stay on track and now, we have to catch them up". meanwhile, kids who did succeed in covid, are left to the side. it's the whole closing the gap, but they bring the top down instead of bringing the bottom up.

As a teacher, I truly think there are not enough ESOL/Sped support in ES. ES parents don’t realize but secondary schools have specialized subject classes for ESOL students. So Level 1-2 ESOL students are in special classes for core subjects. Sped kids are in team taught or self contained. At our ES the ESOL is lucky to meet with kids for 20 mins a day cause they have multiple grade levels. SPED is a scheduling nightmare. If the county focused on getting the resources to these kids at a younger age, perhaps Gen Ed could be more challenging.

Parent here (not a teacher, but have teachers in my family) -- this is it right here (note above). We're expecting teachers to teach ESOL, SPED, on grade and above grade level every day. We're asking them to meet everyone's needs in one classroom and that is nearly impossible. But... the kids above grade level are left unchallenged because they will take care of themselves. I'm not blaming the teacher. It's survival mode. I'm at a center school with three assistant principals, but no reading specialist, nor math specialist. And the hate on this page for programs like AAP is wild. We should meet the needs of all students, and that should include expanding AAP. Kids with perfect (or near perfect) GBRS scores and 99% on the exams shouldn't be left out.

Agree on this. I am the poster whose child took until applying in Grade 4 (actually APPEALING) finally getting him in when he has 99% percentile in WISC and Cogats…and again, Level III, Advanced Math and basically all 4s. And the perfect GBRS for 2 years. I attribute it to being in a very high income, competitive area and the school being a center school. It’s all fine, because he is likely more ready. But he should have gotten in earlier instead of going in this circle for 2 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, if it makes anyone feel better, my child had a 99th on WISC, In-Pool, 99th Cogat, PERFECT GBRS two years in a row (3rd and 4th), Level III, Advanced Math, and all 4s. JUST got admitted on Appeal for Grade 5. Never expected it right now, truthfully. Just applied, because, hey…why not?

So honestly, you never know. All the stuff about the GBRS being important…Like I said, absolutely perfect. Everything CO and great examples etc. And just got in on appeal. I wasn’t going to even bother with the Appeal. Just decided to last minute. Funny thing is, now I am not sure he wants to do it, because his friends are not in the program…

I don’t get why your child has not been accepted for a couple of years. This whole aap thing can be really confusing and unclear at the same time. Is your child in high SES, center school?

Correct. High Income neighborhood. Center school.

Also, I am the poster of the above. So anyone who received my child’s packet couldn’t for the life of them understand why he got rejected…Lol…for 2 years! I am also not sure what changed now. I guess this time his work samples were really different and much more reflective of who he is. But you never know. Keep trying if it is important to you! However, in truth, there are bright kids everywhere. His best friends are all level III and Advanced Math. All super sharp and who could have/should have been in Level IV. So again, don’t sweat it. If you want, keep trying. But bright kids WILL be fine wherever they are.

When my kid was similarly rejected, I also had meetings with the AART. The AART said that each year, there were several kids that she thought were slam dunk admissions who got rejected, and also several kids who mysteriously got admitted with absolutely nothing in their files to suggest AAP placement. The ways of AAP admissions are often mysterious and nonsensical.

Even though FCPS claims it isn't a factor, I think space considerations do play a role in acceptance. Something probably changed at your AAP center to cause it to have space in the program next year for your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i feel it's so crazy that all of this is behind a veiled curtain - like, we get it, it's the whole child you're looking at, but there are definitely "cut-offs" they have determined.

and if a teacher was new or didn't know what papers to assign and collect/ What if a teacher was overwhelmed by personal circumstances and was not really invested in the kids. What if a teacher had a predetermined notion that one race is more gifted than another. There is too much weight on what the teacher says.

This whole program is ass-backwards. It should open up the floodgates and all students should be allowed - no, encouraged to have higher level thinking and challenges. as they grow, we see which kids thrive and which kids need more support and then support them so that they can succeed. This whole thing of pitting kids against each other and having parents prep and train their kids is asinine. I found out after taking my kid to take his WISC that the other parents prepped and found tests online and practiced with their kid. I asked the GMU people if there was anything i needed to do (after learning parents prepped their kids for COGAT) and she said no, there was no way to prep, it was a one-on-one evaluation that they would either know or wouldn't... clearly that was not 100% true.

Or maybe your kid is getting their needs met and will do fine in the gen ed classroom. You sound like a conspiracy theorist; not a good look.

Where is the conspiracy? my child told me he was bored. my neighbors and colleagues told me they prepped their kids. what is the conspiracy?

i taught him at home for the past 2 years through COVID. I know where he is. my daughter got into level IV with less, but higher GBRS - her teacher advocated for her. My sons did not and told me at the beginning of the year that he was struggling and i asked what she was talking about because i had received no work at home indicating that he was struggling. neither did she - it was just her "feeling", yet all of his work was complete and correct.

And just so you know, I've been in education for 25 years here in FCPS, Alexandria and Arlington. You bet your butt that some of these teachers treat different races differently, You're kidding yourself if you don't think that's the truth. I have sat in meeting after CT meeting, after administrative meeting where it was obvious what the teachers were saying without saying it (and some flat out did). I'm Caucasian and I'm seriously offended by comments made by my colleagues. I have reported them, but have learned to just keep quiet because you get in more trouble repeating the racists than the racists do making their comments. My child's needs may be met at the school, but he is not being challenged.

"advanced" curriculum should be open to all elementary students - just like honors is in middle school "open enrollment". why do we limit their growth and education in elementary only to open the floodgates in middle school?

additionally, i'm not worried what the "look" is. I'll advocate for my children no matter what. You can worry about what people think of you on an online forum.

Honors open enrollment is not great because you have kids below grade level who decide to take it and struggle and then content gets watered down.

yes, i can see that argument, but that's what is happening in the regular classrooms as well. that is what the administration at our kids' schools told us. "due to the covid pandemic, many students lost or were not able to stay on track and now, we have to catch them up". meanwhile, kids who did succeed in covid, are left to the side. it's the whole closing the gap, but they bring the top down instead of bringing the bottom up.

As a teacher, I truly think there are not enough ESOL/Sped support in ES. ES parents don’t realize but secondary schools have specialized subject classes for ESOL students. So Level 1-2 ESOL students are in special classes for core subjects. Sped kids are in team taught or self contained. At our ES the ESOL is lucky to meet with kids for 20 mins a day cause they have multiple grade levels. SPED is a scheduling nightmare. If the county focused on getting the resources to these kids at a younger age, perhaps Gen Ed could be more challenging.

Parent here (not a teacher, but have teachers in my family) -- this is it right here (note above). We're expecting teachers to teach ESOL, SPED, on grade and above grade level every day. We're asking them to meet everyone's needs in one classroom and that is nearly impossible. But... the kids above grade level are left unchallenged because they will take care of themselves. I'm not blaming the teacher. It's survival mode. I'm at a center school with three assistant principals, but no reading specialist, nor math specialist. And the hate on this page for programs like AAP is wild. We should meet the needs of all students, and that should include expanding AAP. Kids with perfect (or near perfect) GBRS scores and 99% on the exams shouldn't be left out.

I'll take it a step further. Considering that prepping can only get a kid so far on these tests, I think any kid with 99th percentile CogAT composite or 99th percentile WISC FSIQ should automatically get in. Really, there should be a scale that interpolates the range from 90th percentile CogAT or WISC + perfect GBRS through a 99th percentile CogAT or WISC + minimum GBRS, and any kid above that line is in. Period. Then, kids below the line could apply with a portfolio review and teacher recommendations to see whether they holistically get in, too. It would streamline the process and stop excluding kids who clearly need to be in a program serving the top 20%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i feel it's so crazy that all of this is behind a veiled curtain - like, we get it, it's the whole child you're looking at, but there are definitely "cut-offs" they have determined.

and if a teacher was new or didn't know what papers to assign and collect/ What if a teacher was overwhelmed by personal circumstances and was not really invested in the kids. What if a teacher had a predetermined notion that one race is more gifted than another. There is too much weight on what the teacher says.

This whole program is ass-backwards. It should open up the floodgates and all students should be allowed - no, encouraged to have higher level thinking and challenges. as they grow, we see which kids thrive and which kids need more support and then support them so that they can succeed. This whole thing of pitting kids against each other and having parents prep and train their kids is asinine. I found out after taking my kid to take his WISC that the other parents prepped and found tests online and practiced with their kid. I asked the GMU people if there was anything i needed to do (after learning parents prepped their kids for COGAT) and she said no, there was no way to prep, it was a one-on-one evaluation that they would either know or wouldn't... clearly that was not 100% true.

Or maybe your kid is getting their needs met and will do fine in the gen ed classroom. You sound like a conspiracy theorist; not a good look.

Where is the conspiracy? my child told me he was bored. my neighbors and colleagues told me they prepped their kids. what is the conspiracy?

i taught him at home for the past 2 years through COVID. I know where he is. my daughter got into level IV with less, but higher GBRS - her teacher advocated for her. My sons did not and told me at the beginning of the year that he was struggling and i asked what she was talking about because i had received no work at home indicating that he was struggling. neither did she - it was just her "feeling", yet all of his work was complete and correct.

And just so you know, I've been in education for 25 years here in FCPS, Alexandria and Arlington. You bet your butt that some of these teachers treat different races differently, You're kidding yourself if you don't think that's the truth. I have sat in meeting after CT meeting, after administrative meeting where it was obvious what the teachers were saying without saying it (and some flat out did). I'm Caucasian and I'm seriously offended by comments made by my colleagues. I have reported them, but have learned to just keep quiet because you get in more trouble repeating the racists than the racists do making their comments. My child's needs may be met at the school, but he is not being challenged.

"advanced" curriculum should be open to all elementary students - just like honors is in middle school "open enrollment". why do we limit their growth and education in elementary only to open the floodgates in middle school?

additionally, i'm not worried what the "look" is. I'll advocate for my children no matter what. You can worry about what people think of you on an online forum.

Honors open enrollment is not great because you have kids below grade level who decide to take it and struggle and then content gets watered down.

yes, i can see that argument, but that's what is happening in the regular classrooms as well. that is what the administration at our kids' schools told us. "due to the covid pandemic, many students lost or were not able to stay on track and now, we have to catch them up". meanwhile, kids who did succeed in covid, are left to the side. it's the whole closing the gap, but they bring the top down instead of bringing the bottom up.

As a teacher, I truly think there are not enough ESOL/Sped support in ES. ES parents don’t realize but secondary schools have specialized subject classes for ESOL students. So Level 1-2 ESOL students are in special classes for core subjects. Sped kids are in team taught or self contained. At our ES the ESOL is lucky to meet with kids for 20 mins a day cause they have multiple grade levels. SPED is a scheduling nightmare. If the county focused on getting the resources to these kids at a younger age, perhaps Gen Ed could be more challenging.

Parent here (not a teacher, but have teachers in my family) -- this is it right here (note above). We're expecting teachers to teach ESOL, SPED, on grade and above grade level every day. We're asking them to meet everyone's needs in one classroom and that is nearly impossible. But... the kids above grade level are left unchallenged because they will take care of themselves. I'm not blaming the teacher. It's survival mode. I'm at a center school with three assistant principals, but no reading specialist, nor math specialist. And the hate on this page for programs like AAP is wild. We should meet the needs of all students, and that should include expanding AAP. Kids with perfect (or near perfect) GBRS scores and 99% on the exams shouldn't be left out.

I'll take it a step further. Considering that prepping can only get a kid so far on these tests, I think any kid with 99th percentile CogAT composite or 99th percentile WISC FSIQ should automatically get in. Really, there should be a scale that interpolates the range from 90th percentile CogAT or WISC + perfect GBRS through a 99th percentile CogAT or WISC + minimum GBRS, and any kid above that line is in. Period. Then, kids below the line could apply with a portfolio review and teacher recommendations to see whether they holistically get in, too. It would streamline the process and stop excluding kids who clearly need to be in a program serving the top 20%.

+1 They seem to be against this though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i feel it's so crazy that all of this is behind a veiled curtain - like, we get it, it's the whole child you're looking at, but there are definitely "cut-offs" they have determined.

and if a teacher was new or didn't know what papers to assign and collect/ What if a teacher was overwhelmed by personal circumstances and was not really invested in the kids. What if a teacher had a predetermined notion that one race is more gifted than another. There is too much weight on what the teacher says.

This whole program is ass-backwards. It should open up the floodgates and all students should be allowed - no, encouraged to have higher level thinking and challenges. as they grow, we see which kids thrive and which kids need more support and then support them so that they can succeed. This whole thing of pitting kids against each other and having parents prep and train their kids is asinine. I found out after taking my kid to take his WISC that the other parents prepped and found tests online and practiced with their kid. I asked the GMU people if there was anything i needed to do (after learning parents prepped their kids for COGAT) and she said no, there was no way to prep, it was a one-on-one evaluation that they would either know or wouldn't... clearly that was not 100% true.

Or maybe your kid is getting their needs met and will do fine in the gen ed classroom. You sound like a conspiracy theorist; not a good look.

Where is the conspiracy? my child told me he was bored. my neighbors and colleagues told me they prepped their kids. what is the conspiracy?

i taught him at home for the past 2 years through COVID. I know where he is. my daughter got into level IV with less, but higher GBRS - her teacher advocated for her. My sons did not and told me at the beginning of the year that he was struggling and i asked what she was talking about because i had received no work at home indicating that he was struggling. neither did she - it was just her "feeling", yet all of his work was complete and correct.

And just so you know, I've been in education for 25 years here in FCPS, Alexandria and Arlington. You bet your butt that some of these teachers treat different races differently, You're kidding yourself if you don't think that's the truth. I have sat in meeting after CT meeting, after administrative meeting where it was obvious what the teachers were saying without saying it (and some flat out did). I'm Caucasian and I'm seriously offended by comments made by my colleagues. I have reported them, but have learned to just keep quiet because you get in more trouble repeating the racists than the racists do making their comments. My child's needs may be met at the school, but he is not being challenged.

"advanced" curriculum should be open to all elementary students - just like honors is in middle school "open enrollment". why do we limit their growth and education in elementary only to open the floodgates in middle school?

additionally, i'm not worried what the "look" is. I'll advocate for my children no matter what. You can worry about what people think of you on an online forum.

Honors open enrollment is not great because you have kids below grade level who decide to take it and struggle and then content gets watered down.

yes, i can see that argument, but that's what is happening in the regular classrooms as well. that is what the administration at our kids' schools told us. "due to the covid pandemic, many students lost or were not able to stay on track and now, we have to catch them up". meanwhile, kids who did succeed in covid, are left to the side. it's the whole closing the gap, but they bring the top down instead of bringing the bottom up.

As a teacher, I truly think there are not enough ESOL/Sped support in ES. ES parents don’t realize but secondary schools have specialized subject classes for ESOL students. So Level 1-2 ESOL students are in special classes for core subjects. Sped kids are in team taught or self contained. At our ES the ESOL is lucky to meet with kids for 20 mins a day cause they have multiple grade levels. SPED is a scheduling nightmare. If the county focused on getting the resources to these kids at a younger age, perhaps Gen Ed could be more challenging.

Parent here (not a teacher, but have teachers in my family) -- this is it right here (note above). We're expecting teachers to teach ESOL, SPED, on grade and above grade level every day. We're asking them to meet everyone's needs in one classroom and that is nearly impossible. But... the kids above grade level are left unchallenged because they will take care of themselves. I'm not blaming the teacher. It's survival mode. I'm at a center school with three assistant principals, but no reading specialist, nor math specialist. And the hate on this page for programs like AAP is wild. We should meet the needs of all students, and that should include expanding AAP. Kids with perfect (or near perfect) GBRS scores and 99% on the exams shouldn't be left out.

I'll take it a step further. Considering that prepping can only get a kid so far on these tests, I think any kid with 99th percentile CogAT composite or 99th percentile WISC FSIQ should automatically get in. Really, there should be a scale that interpolates the range from 90th percentile CogAT or WISC + perfect GBRS through a 99th percentile CogAT or WISC + minimum GBRS, and any kid above that line is in. Period. Then, kids below the line could apply with a portfolio review and teacher recommendations to see whether they holistically get in, too. It would streamline the process and stop excluding kids who clearly need to be in a program serving the top 20%.

+1 They seem to be against this though.

+2 This is what I'm saying - give us clear parameters as a starting point. That way, if our kid isn't at that level, at least we know where we stand. 3 years (maybe 2) years ago, a 132 on any one piece of the cogat got you in the pool. For me that was valuable information because that told me that was the range that indicated it was within an acceptable range. I dunno though, maybe in the end, it is what's best. Who knows. I just wish there was more clarity and transparency, that's all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i feel it's so crazy that all of this is behind a veiled curtain - like, we get it, it's the whole child you're looking at, but there are definitely "cut-offs" they have determined.

and if a teacher was new or didn't know what papers to assign and collect/ What if a teacher was overwhelmed by personal circumstances and was not really invested in the kids. What if a teacher had a predetermined notion that one race is more gifted than another. There is too much weight on what the teacher says.

This whole program is ass-backwards. It should open up the floodgates and all students should be allowed - no, encouraged to have higher level thinking and challenges. as they grow, we see which kids thrive and which kids need more support and then support them so that they can succeed. This whole thing of pitting kids against each other and having parents prep and train their kids is asinine. I found out after taking my kid to take his WISC that the other parents prepped and found tests online and practiced with their kid. I asked the GMU people if there was anything i needed to do (after learning parents prepped their kids for COGAT) and she said no, there was no way to prep, it was a one-on-one evaluation that they would either know or wouldn't... clearly that was not 100% true.

Or maybe your kid is getting their needs met and will do fine in the gen ed classroom. You sound like a conspiracy theorist; not a good look.

Where is the conspiracy? my child told me he was bored. my neighbors and colleagues told me they prepped their kids. what is the conspiracy?

i taught him at home for the past 2 years through COVID. I know where he is. my daughter got into level IV with less, but higher GBRS - her teacher advocated for her. My sons did not and told me at the beginning of the year that he was struggling and i asked what she was talking about because i had received no work at home indicating that he was struggling. neither did she - it was just her "feeling", yet all of his work was complete and correct.

And just so you know, I've been in education for 25 years here in FCPS, Alexandria and Arlington. You bet your butt that some of these teachers treat different races differently, You're kidding yourself if you don't think that's the truth. I have sat in meeting after CT meeting, after administrative meeting where it was obvious what the teachers were saying without saying it (and some flat out did). I'm Caucasian and I'm seriously offended by comments made by my colleagues. I have reported them, but have learned to just keep quiet because you get in more trouble repeating the racists than the racists do making their comments. My child's needs may be met at the school, but he is not being challenged.

"advanced" curriculum should be open to all elementary students - just like honors is in middle school "open enrollment". why do we limit their growth and education in elementary only to open the floodgates in middle school?

additionally, i'm not worried what the "look" is. I'll advocate for my children no matter what. You can worry about what people think of you on an online forum.

Honors open enrollment is not great because you have kids below grade level who decide to take it and struggle and then content gets watered down.

yes, i can see that argument, but that's what is happening in the regular classrooms as well. that is what the administration at our kids' schools told us. "due to the covid pandemic, many students lost or were not able to stay on track and now, we have to catch them up". meanwhile, kids who did succeed in covid, are left to the side. it's the whole closing the gap, but they bring the top down instead of bringing the bottom up.

As a teacher, I truly think there are not enough ESOL/Sped support in ES. ES parents don’t realize but secondary schools have specialized subject classes for ESOL students. So Level 1-2 ESOL students are in special classes for core subjects. Sped kids are in team taught or self contained. At our ES the ESOL is lucky to meet with kids for 20 mins a day cause they have multiple grade levels. SPED is a scheduling nightmare. If the county focused on getting the resources to these kids at a younger age, perhaps Gen Ed could be more challenging.

Parent here (not a teacher, but have teachers in my family) -- this is it right here (note above). We're expecting teachers to teach ESOL, SPED, on grade and above grade level every day. We're asking them to meet everyone's needs in one classroom and that is nearly impossible. But... the kids above grade level are left unchallenged because they will take care of themselves. I'm not blaming the teacher. It's survival mode. I'm at a center school with three assistant principals, but no reading specialist, nor math specialist. And the hate on this page for programs like AAP is wild. We should meet the needs of all students, and that should include expanding AAP. Kids with perfect (or near perfect) GBRS scores and 99% on the exams shouldn't be left out.

I'll take it a step further. Considering that prepping can only get a kid so far on these tests, I think any kid with 99th percentile CogAT composite or 99th percentile WISC FSIQ should automatically get in. Really, there should be a scale that interpolates the range from 90th percentile CogAT or WISC + perfect GBRS through a 99th percentile CogAT or WISC + minimum GBRS, and any kid above that line is in. Period. Then, kids below the line could apply with a portfolio review and teacher recommendations to see whether they holistically get in, too. It would streamline the process and stop excluding kids who clearly need to be in a program serving the top 20%.

+1 They seem to be against this though.

+2 This is what I'm saying - give us clear parameters as a starting point. That way, if our kid isn't at that level, at least we know where we stand. 3 years (maybe 2) years ago, a 132 on any one piece of the cogat got you in the pool. For me that was valuable information because that told me that was the range that indicated it was within an acceptable range. I dunno though, maybe in the end, it is what's best. Who knows. I just wish there was more clarity and transparency, that's all.

I think the FCPS is too big and too diverse to apply uniform/automatic AAP admissions criteria across all schools. Whether we like it or not, the fact of the matter is that while the concept of uniform or automatic criteria makes logical sense, it would immediately produce lopsided results. Some centers would be severely overcrowded; other centers would be under-enrolled.

I'm not a fan of the current system, but I think it's the least imperfect system available to a division as large as FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i feel it's so crazy that all of this is behind a veiled curtain - like, we get it, it's the whole child you're looking at, but there are definitely "cut-offs" they have determined.

and if a teacher was new or didn't know what papers to assign and collect/ What if a teacher was overwhelmed by personal circumstances and was not really invested in the kids. What if a teacher had a predetermined notion that one race is more gifted than another. There is too much weight on what the teacher says.

This whole program is ass-backwards. It should open up the floodgates and all students should be allowed - no, encouraged to have higher level thinking and challenges. as they grow, we see which kids thrive and which kids need more support and then support them so that they can succeed. This whole thing of pitting kids against each other and having parents prep and train their kids is asinine. I found out after taking my kid to take his WISC that the other parents prepped and found tests online and practiced with their kid. I asked the GMU people if there was anything i needed to do (after learning parents prepped their kids for COGAT) and she said no, there was no way to prep, it was a one-on-one evaluation that they would either know or wouldn't... clearly that was not 100% true.

Or maybe your kid is getting their needs met and will do fine in the gen ed classroom. You sound like a conspiracy theorist; not a good look.

Where is the conspiracy? my child told me he was bored. my neighbors and colleagues told me they prepped their kids. what is the conspiracy?

i taught him at home for the past 2 years through COVID. I know where he is. my daughter got into level IV with less, but higher GBRS - her teacher advocated for her. My sons did not and told me at the beginning of the year that he was struggling and i asked what she was talking about because i had received no work at home indicating that he was struggling. neither did she - it was just her "feeling", yet all of his work was complete and correct.

And just so you know, I've been in education for 25 years here in FCPS, Alexandria and Arlington. You bet your butt that some of these teachers treat different races differently, You're kidding yourself if you don't think that's the truth. I have sat in meeting after CT meeting, after administrative meeting where it was obvious what the teachers were saying without saying it (and some flat out did). I'm Caucasian and I'm seriously offended by comments made by my colleagues. I have reported them, but have learned to just keep quiet because you get in more trouble repeating the racists than the racists do making their comments. My child's needs may be met at the school, but he is not being challenged.

"advanced" curriculum should be open to all elementary students - just like honors is in middle school "open enrollment". why do we limit their growth and education in elementary only to open the floodgates in middle school?

additionally, i'm not worried what the "look" is. I'll advocate for my children no matter what. You can worry about what people think of you on an online forum.

Honors open enrollment is not great because you have kids below grade level who decide to take it and struggle and then content gets watered down.

yes, i can see that argument, but that's what is happening in the regular classrooms as well. that is what the administration at our kids' schools told us. "due to the covid pandemic, many students lost or were not able to stay on track and now, we have to catch them up". meanwhile, kids who did succeed in covid, are left to the side. it's the whole closing the gap, but they bring the top down instead of bringing the bottom up.

As a teacher, I truly think there are not enough ESOL/Sped support in ES. ES parents don’t realize but secondary schools have specialized subject classes for ESOL students. So Level 1-2 ESOL students are in special classes for core subjects. Sped kids are in team taught or self contained. At our ES the ESOL is lucky to meet with kids for 20 mins a day cause they have multiple grade levels. SPED is a scheduling nightmare. If the county focused on getting the resources to these kids at a younger age, perhaps Gen Ed could be more challenging.

Parent here (not a teacher, but have teachers in my family) -- this is it right here (note above). We're expecting teachers to teach ESOL, SPED, on grade and above grade level every day. We're asking them to meet everyone's needs in one classroom and that is nearly impossible. But... the kids above grade level are left unchallenged because they will take care of themselves. I'm not blaming the teacher. It's survival mode. I'm at a center school with three assistant principals, but no reading specialist, nor math specialist. And the hate on this page for programs like AAP is wild. We should meet the needs of all students, and that should include expanding AAP. Kids with perfect (or near perfect) GBRS scores and 99% on the exams shouldn't be left out.

I'll take it a step further. Considering that prepping can only get a kid so far on these tests, I think any kid with 99th percentile CogAT composite or 99th percentile WISC FSIQ should automatically get in. Really, there should be a scale that interpolates the range from 90th percentile CogAT or WISC + perfect GBRS through a 99th percentile CogAT or WISC + minimum GBRS, and any kid above that line is in. Period. Then, kids below the line could apply with a portfolio review and teacher recommendations to see whether they holistically get in, too. It would streamline the process and stop excluding kids who clearly need to be in a program serving the top 20%.

+1 They seem to be against this though.

+2 This is what I'm saying - give us clear parameters as a starting point. That way, if our kid isn't at that level, at least we know where we stand. 3 years (maybe 2) years ago, a 132 on any one piece of the cogat got you in the pool. For me that was valuable information because that told me that was the range that indicated it was within an acceptable range. I dunno though, maybe in the end, it is what's best. Who knows. I just wish there was more clarity and transparency, that's all.

I think the FCPS is too big and too diverse to apply uniform/automatic AAP admissions criteria across all schools. Whether we like it or not, the fact of the matter is that while the concept of uniform or automatic criteria makes logical sense, it would immediately produce lopsided results. Some centers would be severely overcrowded; other centers would be under-enrolled.

I'm not a fan of the current system, but I think it's the least imperfect system available to a division as large as FCPS.

Why are lopsided results a problem? Kids should be matched with the most appropriate level of service. It's dumb to hold kids back from accessing the most appropriate academic level simply because too many kids at their school are too advanced or too few kids at some other school are advanced enough. The schools that in theory would become overcrowded are already overcrowded or already have robust LLIV offerings. The under enrolled schools would still be able to add kids via a holistic portfolio review or principal placement.

Any kids who test 99th percentile on an aptitude test or are two years ahead on an achievement test undoubtedly need to be in a program that is essentially one year accelerated. Placing them in gen ed, where they might not even be allowed to work one year ahead, they might not have access to a reading group that is at their level, or they might not have access to advanced math class at all is insanity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my 2nd grader was in the pool, had high test scores but low GBRS because I don't think his teacher really sees his abilities (despite telling us that other students ask him for help frequently). We appealed, including a high WISC result and addressing the low GBRS scores but he still didn't get in. Guess that teacher input or lack thereof, means a lot. Hope he gets one who will advocate for him next year.

Same, not a great GBRS - 99th% on both cogat (139) and NNAT (152), rejected on appeal (2nd grade).

same here, 3Fs 1 O not great school samples. Kid is in the Advanced Math group in class. Sciences not an issue at all! All kids in his Advanced Math group got into Level IV and moving away to Center school, his best friend included. Such a ridiculous system.

Cogat 122, Wisc 124. Appealed with lots of evidence of Advanced aptitude of kid.

So let's say ds was borderline (which I strongly disagree even though standardized scores suggest so), even then he needs full time AAP so he can push himself to a higher level.

Advanced Academics should be offered to all kids who either the teacher or parent think needs them. A continuous evaluation can be done during the school year again and if any kid/parent want to opt out, then they should be allowed to do so.

I hope some sense dawns in the school administrators of this process. There are so many excluded students that can really benefit from a higher curriculum.

I don’t think it should be just parent wanting it. Just look at how honors is going in middle school.

I am not sure how honors is going. But what my ds is learning is very very basic in 2nd grade. He was in private school in kg and was taught multiplication and division and he grasped it. Public school curriculum is quite far behind. So unless the kid is very slow in learning or parents not able to sit with the kid, all other kids can benefit from an advanced curriculum.

There is a big jump for every student between 2nd grade and 3rd grade. Whether in AAP or gen ed.

Public school doesn't teach multiplication and division in kindergarten but overall the public school curriculum is generally on par with or ahead of private school curriculum.

How will it jump suddenly from 2nd to 3rd? DS is pretty bored in his class and we supplement a lot outside school. And this summer will be prepping him for Cogat so he gets into level IV!!!

Never did it so far, but came to know there were kids who put in a lot of work and got very high scores.

So if that is the only way, will get that covered.

Not the most intelligent system but will play by it.

Getting a high Cogat score is not the only way into Level IV. However, even more importantly, a high Cogat score doesn’t guarantee a student is a good fit for Level IV and will thrive in AAP.

Yes, not the only way but one way. Why leave prepping your kid if that’s possible and allowed

Holistic approach is totally Subjective. Child has COGat of 99% and decent GRCB and still rejected after appeal.

[Anonymous]

99% Cogat 139 Composite and child still rejected after appeal. Holistic is too subjective.

[Anonymous]

And if the answer is that level IV needs to stay that way, make level III more robust.

[Anonymous]

Is there no bright future for kids who don’t get through Level 4 but always performs above grade level, intelligent and motivated? This whole AAP IV seems to have such massive impact on parents and kids. Is level IV so important because at the end of the day that will be the road to TJ and then an IVY League? What does last 10 years statistics show?
In addition based on the discussions it sounds that the system is not efficient enough to absorb the best candidates majority of the time. This kind of selection should be more on school level and not having to have kids separate out into different school or classroom. Also isn’t grade 2 too early to decide the merit level and continuation till middle school? Atleast this should be re-assessed every 2 years or so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my 2nd grader was in the pool, had high test scores but low GBRS because I don't think his teacher really sees his abilities (despite telling us that other students ask him for help frequently). We appealed, including a high WISC result and addressing the low GBRS scores but he still didn't get in. Guess that teacher input or lack thereof, means a lot. Hope he gets one who will advocate for him next year.

Same, not a great GBRS - 99th% on both cogat (139) and NNAT (152), rejected on appeal (2nd grade).

same here, 3Fs 1 O not great school samples. Kid is in the Advanced Math group in class. Sciences not an issue at all! All kids in his Advanced Math group got into Level IV and moving away to Center school, his best friend included. Such a ridiculous system.

Cogat 122, Wisc 124. Appealed with lots of evidence of Advanced aptitude of kid.

So let's say ds was borderline (which I strongly disagree even though standardized scores suggest so), even then he needs full time AAP so he can push himself to a higher level.

Advanced Academics should be offered to all kids who either the teacher or parent think needs them. A continuous evaluation can be done during the school year again and if any kid/parent want to opt out, then they should be allowed to do so.

I hope some sense dawns in the school administrators of this process. There are so many excluded students that can really benefit from a higher curriculum.

I don’t think it should be just parent wanting it. Just look at how honors is going in middle school.

I am not sure how honors is going. But what my ds is learning is very very basic in 2nd grade. He was in private school in kg and was taught multiplication and division and he grasped it. Public school curriculum is quite far behind. So unless the kid is very slow in learning or parents not able to sit with the kid, all other kids can benefit from an advanced curriculum.

There is a big jump for every student between 2nd grade and 3rd grade. Whether in AAP or gen ed.

Public school doesn't teach multiplication and division in kindergarten but overall the public school curriculum is generally on par with or ahead of private school curriculum.

How will it jump suddenly from 2nd to 3rd? DS is pretty bored in his class and we supplement a lot outside school. And this summer will be prepping him for Cogat so he gets into level IV!!!

Never did it so far, but came to know there were kids who put in a lot of work and got very high scores.

So if that is the only way, will get that covered.

Not the most intelligent system but will play by it.

Getting a high Cogat score is not the only way into Level IV. However, even more importantly, a high Cogat score doesn’t guarantee a student is a good fit for Level IV and will thrive in AAP.

Yes, not the only way but one way. Why leave prepping your kid if that’s possible and allowed

It’s more accurate to say that it’s not disallowed.

Frankly, prepping is a waste of time. Cogat is only one of many considerations that the selection committee takes under advisement. If your kid is truly bright, then they’ll do fine on the Cogat without help.

Don't know any kid around me who got into AAP without prepping! I learned about this whole process very late. My kid with a little push can do extremely well.

We moved to FCPS and DD took the Cogat with zero prep and scored a 145+

Sure, gifted kid. I said none around me, as per input from 5 parents.

Neat. We didn’t prep for the Cogat either (didn’t know that was even a “thing” with the first kid). Two kids scored high AAP-worthy numbers. Sorry. I know it makes you feel better to think the parents whose kids got in gamed the system. Shrug.

Also have unprepped kids who got in w/o high scores, not URM or low SES school (I’ve been accused of lying when I’ve posted them here).

It is clearly a weird system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there no bright future for kids who don’t get through Level 4 but always performs above grade level, intelligent and motivated? This whole AAP IV seems to have such massive impact on parents and kids. Is level IV so important because at the end of the day that will be the road to TJ and then an IVY League? What does last 10 years statistics show?
In addition based on the discussions it sounds that the system is not efficient enough to absorb the best candidates majority of the time. This kind of selection should be more on school level and not having to have kids separate out into different school or classroom. Also isn’t grade 2 too early to decide the merit level and continuation till middle school? Atleast this should be re-assessed every 2 years or so.

Plenty of kids who were not in AAP do very well in HS and go on to excellent schools. There are very few parents who think AAP is the end all and be all. The people on this board are not representative of the County as a whole.

Parents can apply for AAP every year from 2nd grade to 7th grade, it is not a one and done program.

It is not meant to be a gifted program but to give kids who are doing well in school and are ahead or advanced a place to learn that matches their current abilities and pace. There are kids who take longer to learn to read or develop foundational math skills but once they get that foundation they do great in school. But it is not fair to the kids who did catch on to reading or math fundamentals to have to sit in class not learning anything while other kids are developing those skills. AAP is meant for kids who are ahead at a younger age so that they can learn at a pace that meets their needs. By the time kids are in High School, they can choose tracks that fit their interests and abilities so the need for a specific class is gone and AAP ends.