Today is the day! (AAP appeals)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there no bright future for kids who don’t get through Level 4 but always performs above grade level, intelligent and motivated? This whole AAP IV seems to have such massive impact on parents and kids. Is level IV so important because at the end of the day that will be the road to TJ and then an IVY League? What does last 10 years statistics show?
In addition based on the discussions it sounds that the system is not efficient enough to absorb the best candidates majority of the time. This kind of selection should be more on school level and not having to have kids separate out into different school or classroom. Also isn’t grade 2 too early to decide the merit level and continuation till middle school? Atleast this should be re-assessed every 2 years or so.

This. My son just got in for 5th grade. I had moved into this area right before he started elementary from a different state. I had no clue how crazy this all was. I didn’t even think about the NNAT. I was like “what difference does a test a kid took at age 6 make?” How ridiculous. I totally disagree that only Level IV TJ kids will be successful. That’s bull. There are great high schools. They can take honors and AP classes if they want anyways. And it’s a lot more than just grades. It’s kids who do OTHER things. They are well rounded… have actual personalities. You need a lot more than your grades and test scores to truly succeed in life. There are a so many great private schools as well, and kids get into great colleges from there also.

What I do think is important is Math. If he was in the Advanced Math class, that is what really counted because that is where the distinction is made. THe kids in advanced math get a year ahead. So in truth, I don’t think it matters that much. But try to keep your child ahead in Math (if they are prone to Math) and keep them working hard at school and enjoying their other activities. They will be fine! Also, they are freakin’ kids! So much pressure on them so young! Its a crazy system. Back in my time, we didn’t have any advanced/AP classes until Middle School, and that too, it was based on performance in our classes. It was NOT based on some faceless committee making a decision on a child they don’t know. Your child will be FINE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there no bright future for kids who don’t get through Level 4 but always performs above grade level, intelligent and motivated? This whole AAP IV seems to have such massive impact on parents and kids. Is level IV so important because at the end of the day that will be the road to TJ and then an IVY League? What does last 10 years statistics show?
In addition based on the discussions it sounds that the system is not efficient enough to absorb the best candidates majority of the time. This kind of selection should be more on school level and not having to have kids separate out into different school or classroom. Also isn’t grade 2 too early to decide the merit level and continuation till middle school? Atleast this should be re-assessed every 2 years or so.

Plenty of kids who were not in AAP do very well in HS and go on to excellent schools. There are very few parents who think AAP is the end all and be all. The people on this board are not representative of the County as a whole.

Parents can apply for AAP every year from 2nd grade to 7th grade, it is not a one and done program.

It is not meant to be a gifted program but to give kids who are doing well in school and are ahead or advanced a place to learn that matches their current abilities and pace. There are kids who take longer to learn to read or develop foundational math skills but once they get that foundation they do great in school. But it is not fair to the kids who did catch on to reading or math fundamentals to have to sit in class not learning anything while other kids are developing those skills. AAP is meant for kids who are ahead at a younger age so that they can learn at a pace that meets their needs. By the time kids are in High School, they can choose tracks that fit their interests and abilities so the need for a specific class is gone and AAP ends.

AAP is for not-wealthy-enough-for-private-school parents to sequester their kids from the undesirables. After their non-diverse (wealth, demographics, behavior) AAP cohort, they’ll go to non-diverse TJ and the a non-diverse Ivy. Then they’ll work in their specialty field up until the point where they actually have to deal with other kinds of people. And fail.

Eliminate AAP/TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there no bright future for kids who don’t get through Level 4 but always performs above grade level, intelligent and motivated? This whole AAP IV seems to have such massive impact on parents and kids. Is level IV so important because at the end of the day that will be the road to TJ and then an IVY League? What does last 10 years statistics show?
In addition based on the discussions it sounds that the system is not efficient enough to absorb the best candidates majority of the time. This kind of selection should be more on school level and not having to have kids separate out into different school or classroom. Also isn’t grade 2 too early to decide the merit level and continuation till middle school? Atleast this should be re-assessed every 2 years or so.

Plenty of kids who were not in AAP do very well in HS and go on to excellent schools. There are very few parents who think AAP is the end all and be all. The people on this board are not representative of the County as a whole.

Parents can apply for AAP every year from 2nd grade to 7th grade, it is not a one and done program.

It is not meant to be a gifted program but to give kids who are doing well in school and are ahead or advanced a place to learn that matches their current abilities and pace. There are kids who take longer to learn to read or develop foundational math skills but once they get that foundation they do great in school. But it is not fair to the kids who did catch on to reading or math fundamentals to have to sit in class not learning anything while other kids are developing those skills. AAP is meant for kids who are ahead at a younger age so that they can learn at a pace that meets their needs. By the time kids are in High School, they can choose tracks that fit their interests and abilities so the need for a specific class is gone and AAP ends.

AAP is for not-wealthy-enough-for-private-school parents to sequester their kids from the undesirables. After their non-diverse (wealth, demographics, behavior) AAP cohort, they’ll go to non-diverse TJ and the a non-diverse Ivy. Then they’ll work in their specialty field up until the point where they actually have to deal with other kinds of people. And fail.

Eliminate AAP/TJ.

The vast majority of AAP kids are not going on to TJ. Any many non-AAP kids will get to take AP classes in high school and go on to great colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there no bright future for kids who don’t get through Level 4 but always performs above grade level, intelligent and motivated? This whole AAP IV seems to have such massive impact on parents and kids. Is level IV so important because at the end of the day that will be the road to TJ and then an IVY League? What does last 10 years statistics show?
In addition based on the discussions it sounds that the system is not efficient enough to absorb the best candidates majority of the time. This kind of selection should be more on school level and not having to have kids separate out into different school or classroom. Also isn’t grade 2 too early to decide the merit level and continuation till middle school? Atleast this should be re-assessed every 2 years or so.

Plenty of kids who were not in AAP do very well in HS and go on to excellent schools. There are very few parents who think AAP is the end all and be all. The people on this board are not representative of the County as a whole.

Parents can apply for AAP every year from 2nd grade to 7th grade, it is not a one and done program.

It is not meant to be a gifted program but to give kids who are doing well in school and are ahead or advanced a place to learn that matches their current abilities and pace. There are kids who take longer to learn to read or develop foundational math skills but once they get that foundation they do great in school. But it is not fair to the kids who did catch on to reading or math fundamentals to have to sit in class not learning anything while other kids are developing those skills. AAP is meant for kids who are ahead at a younger age so that they can learn at a pace that meets their needs. By the time kids are in High School, they can choose tracks that fit their interests and abilities so the need for a specific class is gone and AAP ends.

AAP is for not-wealthy-enough-for-private-school parents to sequester their kids from the undesirables. After their non-diverse (wealth, demographics, behavior) AAP cohort, they’ll go to non-diverse TJ and the a non-diverse Ivy. Then they’ll work in their specialty field up until the point where they actually have to deal with other kinds of people. And fail.

Eliminate AAP/TJ.

Instead of wasting time being angry and writing drivel, do yourself a favor and read up on the realities of the AAP program and what it's designed to do. You might learn a thing or three. You might also come out a little less bitter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there no bright future for kids who don’t get through Level 4 but always performs above grade level, intelligent and motivated? This whole AAP IV seems to have such massive impact on parents and kids. Is level IV so important because at the end of the day that will be the road to TJ and then an IVY League? What does last 10 years statistics show?
In addition based on the discussions it sounds that the system is not efficient enough to absorb the best candidates majority of the time. This kind of selection should be more on school level and not having to have kids separate out into different school or classroom. Also isn’t grade 2 too early to decide the merit level and continuation till middle school? Atleast this should be re-assessed every 2 years or so.

Plenty of kids who were not in AAP do very well in HS and go on to excellent schools. There are very few parents who think AAP is the end all and be all. The people on this board are not representative of the County as a whole.

Parents can apply for AAP every year from 2nd grade to 7th grade, it is not a one and done program.

It is not meant to be a gifted program but to give kids who are doing well in school and are ahead or advanced a place to learn that matches their current abilities and pace. There are kids who take longer to learn to read or develop foundational math skills but once they get that foundation they do great in school. But it is not fair to the kids who did catch on to reading or math fundamentals to have to sit in class not learning anything while other kids are developing those skills. AAP is meant for kids who are ahead at a younger age so that they can learn at a pace that meets their needs. By the time kids are in High School, they can choose tracks that fit their interests and abilities so the need for a specific class is gone and AAP ends.

AAP is for not-wealthy-enough-for-private-school parents to sequester their kids from the undesirables. After their non-diverse (wealth, demographics, behavior) AAP cohort, they’ll go to non-diverse TJ and the a non-diverse Ivy. Then they’ll work in their specialty field up until the point where they actually have to deal with other kinds of people. And fail.

Eliminate AAP/TJ.

This is ironic in that my kids AAP classes are more diverse than our school on a whole.

[Anonymous]

Appeal got rejected, and spent the last week or so trying not to wonder why and be bummed out.

Then this week, we unexpectedly received a letter from the school inviting my kid to Advanced Math in the fall. Makes me feel a bit better that my kid didn't fall completely through the cracks. Might try again next year.

For reference:
rising 3rd grader (in screening pool)
NNAT 160
Cogat 144
WISC 131
GBRS half Cs half Os (I'm guessing this is the main reason for the rejection)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Appeal got rejected, and spent the last week or so trying not to wonder why and be bummed out.

Then this week, we unexpectedly received a letter from the school inviting my kid to Advanced Math in the fall. Makes me feel a bit better that my kid didn't fall completely through the cracks. Might try again next year.

For reference:
rising 3rd grader (in screening pool)
NNAT 160
Cogat 144
WISC 131
GBRS half Cs half Os (I'm guessing this is the main reason for the rejection)

The Occasionally Observes are a huge issue and the declining test scores. The WISC is high, I don't care what anyone says 97/98th percentile is high. But it does not hit the magic 132, which was the gold standard for a while, and the fact that the test scores for the NNAT and CogAT and then the WISC diminish is probably a flag to the Committee.

Your best bet is going to be working on the skills that were reviewed as Occassionally Observed with your child. I would not include the WISC if you apply again, it does not help your case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Appeal got rejected, and spent the last week or so trying not to wonder why and be bummed out.

Then this week, we unexpectedly received a letter from the school inviting my kid to Advanced Math in the fall. Makes me feel a bit better that my kid didn't fall completely through the cracks. Might try again next year.

For reference:
rising 3rd grader (in screening pool)
NNAT 160
Cogat 144
WISC 131
GBRS half Cs half Os (I'm guessing this is the main reason for the rejection)

The Occasionally Observes are a huge issue and the declining test scores. The WISC is high, I don't care what anyone says 97/98th percentile is high. But it does not hit the magic 132, which was the gold standard for a while, and the fact that the test scores for the NNAT and CogAT and then the WISC diminish is probably a flag to the Committee.

Your best bet is going to be working on the skills that were reviewed as Occassionally Observed with your child. I would not include the WISC if you apply again, it does not help your case.

DP. The WISC and the NNAT and Cogat are on different scales. A 130 on the WISC is the same as a 132 on the NNAT and Cogat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Appeal got rejected, and spent the last week or so trying not to wonder why and be bummed out.

Then this week, we unexpectedly received a letter from the school inviting my kid to Advanced Math in the fall. Makes me feel a bit better that my kid didn't fall completely through the cracks. Might try again next year.

For reference:
rising 3rd grader (in screening pool)
NNAT 160
Cogat 144
WISC 131
GBRS half Cs half Os (I'm guessing this is the main reason for the rejection)

The Occasionally Observes are a huge issue and the declining test scores. The WISC is high, I don't care what anyone says 97/98th percentile is high. But it does not hit the magic 132, which was the gold standard for a while, and the fact that the test scores for the NNAT and CogAT and then the WISC diminish is probably a flag to the Committee.

Your best bet is going to be working on the skills that were reviewed as Occassionally Observed with your child. I would not include the WISC if you apply again, it does not help your case.

DP. The WISC and the NNAT and Cogat are on different scales. A 130 on the WISC is the same as a 132 on the NNAT and Cogat.

I get that. The NNAT and CogAT are different types of tests meant to be a proxy for the WISC. That doesn't change that the child started with a 160 on the NNAT and went to a 144 on the CogAT which is still higher then a 131 on the WISC. I am not able to say what the tells me about this child and their abilities but I would expect that most kids, in an ideal world, are going to be relativity close in scores. There is a decent gap in score from test to test. I would not be surprised to see a gap between then NNAT and the CogAT, based on the test differences and the way kids mature. I would not expect that type of a gap between the CogAT and the WISC. The fact that the WISC is 13 points lower then the CogAT does not help the PPs case.

They can submit an application and not include the WISC which should help. But, they really need to work with their kid on the areas that they got an Occassionally Observed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Appeal got rejected, and spent the last week or so trying not to wonder why and be bummed out.

Then this week, we unexpectedly received a letter from the school inviting my kid to Advanced Math in the fall. Makes me feel a bit better that my kid didn't fall completely through the cracks. Might try again next year.

For reference:
rising 3rd grader (in screening pool)
NNAT 160
Cogat 144
WISC 131
GBRS half Cs half Os (I'm guessing this is the main reason for the rejection)

The Occasionally Observes are a huge issue and the declining test scores. The WISC is high, I don't care what anyone says 97/98th percentile is high. But it does not hit the magic 132, which was the gold standard for a while, and the fact that the test scores for the NNAT and CogAT and then the WISC diminish is probably a flag to the Committee.

Your best bet is going to be working on the skills that were reviewed as Occassionally Observed with your child. I would not include the WISC if you apply again, it does not help your case.

DP. The WISC and the NNAT and Cogat are on different scales. A 130 on the WISC is the same as a 132 on the NNAT and Cogat.

I get that. The NNAT and CogAT are different types of tests meant to be a proxy for the WISC. That doesn't change that the child started with a 160 on the NNAT and went to a 144 on the CogAT which is still higher then a 131 on the WISC. I am not able to say what the tells me about this child and their abilities but I would expect that most kids, in an ideal world, are going to be relativity close in scores. There is a decent gap in score from test to test. I would not be surprised to see a gap between then NNAT and the CogAT, based on the test differences and the way kids mature. I would not expect that type of a gap between the CogAT and the WISC. The fact that the WISC is 13 points lower then the CogAT does not help the PPs case.

They can submit an application and not include the WISC which should help. But, they really need to work with their kid on the areas that they got an Occassionally Observed.

The tests don't correlate in that way. I would expect similar scores on NNAT, CogAT NV, and WISC VSI and/or FRI. I would also expect somewhat similar scores on CogAT V and WISC VCI. And I would expect somewhat similar scores on CogAT Q and WISC FRI. Neither the WMI nor PSI on WISC correlate to anything on NNAT or CogAT.

PP might have a distribution of scores that looks weird and inconsistent. Or the scores might make perfect sense if you look at individual sub scores. My kid was kind of the opposite of PP's. Mid 120s on NNAT, but 140s on WISC and CogAT. My kid's NNAT was in line with the CogAT NV and the WISC VSI scores, even if the overall NNAT was significantly lower than the other tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Appeal got rejected, and spent the last week or so trying not to wonder why and be bummed out.

Then this week, we unexpectedly received a letter from the school inviting my kid to Advanced Math in the fall. Makes me feel a bit better that my kid didn't fall completely through the cracks. Might try again next year.

For reference:
rising 3rd grader (in screening pool)
NNAT 160
Cogat 144
WISC 131
GBRS half Cs half Os (I'm guessing this is the main reason for the rejection)

The Occasionally Observes are a huge issue and the declining test scores. The WISC is high, I don't care what anyone says 97/98th percentile is high. But it does not hit the magic 132, which was the gold standard for a while, and the fact that the test scores for the NNAT and CogAT and then the WISC diminish is probably a flag to the Committee.

Your best bet is going to be working on the skills that were reviewed as Occassionally Observed with your child. I would not include the WISC if you apply again, it does not help your case.

OP here. Is there really a big difference between the NNAT and Cogat scores? They were both 99 percentile. I was on the fence about including the WISC in the appeal, but decided to because the report mentioned that because of significant variation among the subtest scores, the GAI (general ability index) would be a better overall estimate of his general ability, which was a 137 (vs the 131 FSIQ). The Working Memory and Processing Speed indices were what pulled his overall score down -- other indices like Visual Spatial and Fluid Reasoning were extremely high. I can understand how the scores might be perceived if taking a cursory look though, and might not include the WISC if we apply again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Appeal got rejected, and spent the last week or so trying not to wonder why and be bummed out.

Then this week, we unexpectedly received a letter from the school inviting my kid to Advanced Math in the fall. Makes me feel a bit better that my kid didn't fall completely through the cracks. Might try again next year.

For reference:
rising 3rd grader (in screening pool)
NNAT 160
Cogat 144
WISC 131
GBRS half Cs half Os (I'm guessing this is the main reason for the rejection)

The Occasionally Observes are a huge issue and the declining test scores. The WISC is high, I don't care what anyone says 97/98th percentile is high. But it does not hit the magic 132, which was the gold standard for a while, and the fact that the test scores for the NNAT and CogAT and then the WISC diminish is probably a flag to the Committee.

Your best bet is going to be working on the skills that were reviewed as Occassionally Observed with your child. I would not include the WISC if you apply again, it does not help your case.

OP here. Is there really a big difference between the NNAT and Cogat scores? They were both 99 percentile. I was on the fence about including the WISC in the appeal, but decided to because the report mentioned that because of significant variation among the subtest scores, the GAI (general ability index) would be a better overall estimate of his general ability, which was a 137 (vs the 131 FSIQ). The Working Memory and Processing Speed indices were what pulled his overall score down -- other indices like Visual Spatial and Fluid Reasoning were extremely high. I can understand how the scores might be perceived if taking a cursory look though, and might not include the WISC if we apply again.

I don't know the scores well enough to be able to differentiate but a 16 point drop followed by a 14 point drop seems to me to be a lot. But I am not on the Committee for a good reason, I don't have the training to assess these things. Honestly, the scores are all in the 98th-99th percentile which scream high to me. But people on this board seem to poo-poo anything that is below the 99th percentile, with some people poo-pooing anything under 99.5th percentile. It strikes me as crazy because all of those tests point to bright kids. But I literally don't know so my reaction is based on my perception.

If the Committee is looking at the tests for anything, a downward trend is not what I would want to show. even if it is from an A+ to an A to an A-. Toss in the conversation about prep and I could see Committee members comparing the prep able tests (NNAT and CogAT) and less prep able test (WISC) and taking that WISC score more as a measure of ability then the WISC and CogAT.

Still, I think that the GBRSs are not helping. You know the comments that the Teachers made. Are there things that you can work on with your kid that would move those. For example, is there an issue with rushing through work and not completing it properly? If there are times when the work is well done and correct and other times that the work isn't finished or is finished quickly with mistakes? You have not given examples so I am making one up. If that were the case, then you can start to work with your child on completing work properly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Appeal got rejected, and spent the last week or so trying not to wonder why and be bummed out.

Then this week, we unexpectedly received a letter from the school inviting my kid to Advanced Math in the fall. Makes me feel a bit better that my kid didn't fall completely through the cracks. Might try again next year.

For reference:
rising 3rd grader (in screening pool)
NNAT 160
Cogat 144
WISC 131
GBRS half Cs half Os (I'm guessing this is the main reason for the rejection)

The Occasionally Observes are a huge issue and the declining test scores. The WISC is high, I don't care what anyone says 97/98th percentile is high. But it does not hit the magic 132, which was the gold standard for a while, and the fact that the test scores for the NNAT and CogAT and then the WISC diminish is probably a flag to the Committee.

Your best bet is going to be working on the skills that were reviewed as Occassionally Observed with your child. I would not include the WISC if you apply again, it does not help your case.

OP here. Is there really a big difference between the NNAT and Cogat scores? They were both 99 percentile. I was on the fence about including the WISC in the appeal, but decided to because the report mentioned that because of significant variation among the subtest scores, the GAI (general ability index) would be a better overall estimate of his general ability, which was a 137 (vs the 131 FSIQ). The Working Memory and Processing Speed indices were what pulled his overall score down -- other indices like Visual Spatial and Fluid Reasoning were extremely high. I can understand how the scores might be perceived if taking a cursory look though, and might not include the WISC if we apply again.

Agree that all of those scores are all 99th percentile and none of the tests are good at the upper range. I'm not sure the different between the GAI and FSIQ is enough to matter, either way the WISC is good.

Agree that the Os are the problem. My DC was admitted on appeal with 4 Os, and a very good explanation of them, as well as a supporting WISC. For now, see how Advanced Math goes. And decide what to do about next year, next year. That's my advice, fwiw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my 2nd grader was in the pool, had high test scores but low GBRS because I don't think his teacher really sees his abilities (despite telling us that other students ask him for help frequently). We appealed, including a high WISC result and addressing the low GBRS scores but he still didn't get in. Guess that teacher input or lack thereof, means a lot. Hope he gets one who will advocate for him next year.

Same, not a great GBRS - 99th% on both cogat (139) and NNAT (152), rejected on appeal (2nd grade).

same here, 3Fs 1 O not great school samples. Kid is in the Advanced Math group in class. Sciences not an issue at all! All kids in his Advanced Math group got into Level IV and moving away to Center school, his best friend included. Such a ridiculous system.

Cogat 122, Wisc 124. Appealed with lots of evidence of Advanced aptitude of kid.

So let's say ds was borderline (which I strongly disagree even though standardized scores suggest so), even then he needs full time AAP so he can push himself to a higher level.

Advanced Academics should be offered to all kids who either the teacher or parent think needs them. A continuous evaluation can be done during the school year again and if any kid/parent want to opt out, then they should be allowed to do so.

I hope some sense dawns in the school administrators of this process. There are so many excluded students that can really benefit from a higher curriculum.

Are there more girls than boys in AAP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there no bright future for kids who don’t get through Level 4 but always performs above grade level, intelligent and motivated? This whole AAP IV seems to have such massive impact on parents and kids. Is level IV so important because at the end of the day that will be the road to TJ and then an IVY League? What does last 10 years statistics show?
In addition based on the discussions it sounds that the system is not efficient enough to absorb the best candidates majority of the time. This kind of selection should be more on school level and not having to have kids separate out into different school or classroom. Also isn’t grade 2 too early to decide the merit level and continuation till middle school? Atleast this should be re-assessed every 2 years or so.

Plenty of kids who were not in AAP do very well in HS and go on to excellent schools. There are very few parents who think AAP is the end all and be all. The people on this board are not representative of the County as a whole.

Parents can apply for AAP every year from 2nd grade to 7th grade, it is not a one and done program.

It is not meant to be a gifted program but to give kids who are doing well in school and are ahead or advanced a place to learn that matches their current abilities and pace. There are kids who take longer to learn to read or develop foundational math skills but once they get that foundation they do great in school. But it is not fair to the kids who did catch on to reading or math fundamentals to have to sit in class not learning anything while other kids are developing those skills. AAP is meant for kids who are ahead at a younger age so that they can learn at a pace that meets their needs. By the time kids are in High School, they can choose tracks that fit their interests and abilities so the need for a specific class is gone and AAP ends.

AAP is for not-wealthy-enough-for-private-school parents to sequester their kids from the undesirables. After their non-diverse (wealth, demographics, behavior) AAP cohort, they’ll go to non-diverse TJ and the a non-diverse Ivy. Then they’ll work in their specialty field up until the point where they actually have to deal with other kinds of people. And fail.

Eliminate AAP/TJ.

Have you worked at a FAANG before or have some other visibility into tech companies that would support your statement?