Swarthmore/Wes VS Williams/Bowdoin

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do actually think there is a difference between the top schools and the others. We visited a ton of SLACs in the last year and attended SLACs ourselves. Obviously some of the ranking differences are arbitrary but these schools are not all the same.

+1. How many students/parents would choose Rhodes over Williams, for example?

No one's saying they're all the same. They're just not as different academically as people think, so someone who likes the warmer weather and lower price at Rhodes should not feel like they're sacrificing anything in order to make that choice.

Upon what do you base your assumption that people SHOULD choose Williams over Rhodes? Probably a significant part of it is that USNWR has had them significantly higher ranked for over 30 years. But WHY are they ranked higher? The 3-point difference in SAT percentiles isn't enough to yield a significant difference in the level of classroom rigor or discussion, right? So what's the real difference? Take a look at the USNWR criteria and weights used to rank and tell us honestly if they're the criteria that matter most to you in a school. The quality of education at different colleges is much closer than the impression one gets from looking at how far away they are from each another in rankings.

Think about it this way. There are over 2500 4-year colleges in the US. If someone were to rank the 2500 most desirable locations on the planet to take a vacation, and you can only choose one of them to attend, would you make your decision based on the criteria those rankers chose and think that there must be a huge difference between #10 (say...Rome) and #100 (say...Zion National Park)? Not likely. There are many, many very desirable places to visit, and you would go to your own criteria for what you're looking for in a vacation and choose based on that. Your criteria would likely yield many of the same places, but in a completely different order. The same is true for colleges. The number of colleges that can satisfy any given student's needs is much large than most people believe.

If you like anecdotes, consider this: My cousin's oldest daughter turned down Penn and Hopkins to attend Catholic U. She liked the scholarship they offered and the traditional Catholic education. After 4 years, she had both a bachelor's AND a Master's in biomedical engineering, and a job as a researcher at NIH waiting for her upon graduation. She could not have hoped for better results if she'd chosen one of the other two schools.

Where did you get the idea that there's only a 3 percentage point difference between the SAT scores of entering students at Rhodes and Williams??? For the most recent entering class for which stats are available for both school -- the entering class of 2020 --the mid-50 percent range for Rhodes is 1250 to 1400 and for Williams it's 1430 to 1540. Assuming the mean for Rhodes was 1325 and doe Williams 1485, we're talking about the 88th percentile versus the 97th. That ain't three points.

It helps to make sure your facts are right before you pontificate.

Actually, the data for the entering class of 2021 is available for Rhodes, and their range is 1320-1450, making the median 1385; interestingly, they are still requiring test scores despite the pandemic. The most recent year Williams required test scores was for the entering class of 2018, for which their range was 1410-1550, yielding a median of 1480.

You're apparently using the percentile chart for those who actually take the SAT, while I prefer the one for the nationally representative sample. When talking about how capable a student is intellectually, I believe comparing them to the entire population makes more sense. On this chart, Williams' 1480 corresponds to the 99th percentile. Rhodes' 1385 is midway between the 96th and 97th percentiles, so I rounded down in order to avoid anyone thinking I was taking undue advantage to make a point.

I agree that it "helps to make sure your facts are right before you pontificate".

[Anonymous]

PP 22:25 makes a number of good points. My DC was accepted everywhere they applied. So having many choices. First choice offered very little FA and the lesser school gave full ride. Chose the full ride.
Very big fish in the pond. No debt. Selected for very prestigious job as a junior when graduated. Many awards. This would not have happened at the more elite school. Also enjoyed college. Choose what works best for YOUR DC not what rankings say. Of course there’s a difference between Harvard and State but many steps in between.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do actually think there is a difference between the top schools and the others. We visited a ton of SLACs in the last year and attended SLACs ourselves. Obviously some of the ranking differences are arbitrary but these schools are not all the same.

+1. How many students/parents would choose Rhodes over Williams, for example?

No one's saying they're all the same. They're just not as different academically as people think, so someone who likes the warmer weather and lower price at Rhodes should not feel like they're sacrificing anything in order to make that choice.

Upon what do you base your assumption that people SHOULD choose Williams over Rhodes? Probably a significant part of it is that USNWR has had them significantly higher ranked for over 30 years. But WHY are they ranked higher? The 3-point difference in SAT percentiles isn't enough to yield a significant difference in the level of classroom rigor or discussion, right? So what's the real difference? Take a look at the USNWR criteria and weights used to rank and tell us honestly if they're the criteria that matter most to you in a school. The quality of education at different colleges is much closer than the impression one gets from looking at how far away they are from each another in rankings.

Think about it this way. There are over 2500 4-year colleges in the US. If someone were to rank the 2500 most desirable locations on the planet to take a vacation, and you can only choose one of them to attend, would you make your decision based on the criteria those rankers chose and think that there must be a huge difference between #10 (say...Rome) and #100 (say...Zion National Park)? Not likely. There are many, many very desirable places to visit, and you would go to your own criteria for what you're looking for in a vacation and choose based on that. Your criteria would likely yield many of the same places, but in a completely different order. The same is true for colleges. The number of colleges that can satisfy any given student's needs is much large than most people believe.

If you like anecdotes, consider this: My cousin's oldest daughter turned down Penn and Hopkins to attend Catholic U. She liked the scholarship they offered and the traditional Catholic education. After 4 years, she had both a bachelor's AND a Master's in biomedical engineering, and a job as a researcher at NIH waiting for her upon graduation. She could not have hoped for better results if she'd chosen one of the other two schools.

Where did you get the idea that there's only a 3 percentage point difference between the SAT scores of entering students at Rhodes and Williams??? For the most recent entering class for which stats are available for both school -- the entering class of 2020 --the mid-50 percent range for Rhodes is 1250 to 1400 and for Williams it's 1430 to 1540. Assuming the mean for Rhodes was 1325 and doe Williams 1485, we're talking about the 88th percentile versus the 97th. That ain't three points.

It helps to make sure your facts are right before you pontificate.

Actually, the data for the entering class of 2021 is available for Rhodes, and their range is 1320-1450, making the median 1385; interestingly, they are still requiring test scores despite the pandemic. The most recent year Williams required test scores was for the entering class of 2018, for which their range was 1410-1550, yielding a median of 1480.

You're apparently using the percentile chart for those who actually take the SAT, while I prefer the one for the nationally representative sample. When talking about how capable a student is intellectually, I believe comparing them to the entire population makes more sense. On this chart, Williams' 1480 corresponds to the 99th percentile. Rhodes' 1385 is midway between the 96th and 97th percentiles, so I rounded down in order to avoid anyone thinking I was taking undue advantage to make a point.

I agree that it "helps to make sure your facts are right before you pontificate".

Rhodes has published their latest common data set (CDS). Only 12% submitted a SAT, and 32% the ACT. Testing is not a requirement. The ACT range was 28-32.

According to the CDS, 66% of the students ranked in the top 10% of their class. Williams is consistently 90%+, a percent similar to the Ivy league schools and other top 20 universities.

While Williams hasn't posted their latest CDS yet, Amherst and Pomona (two similar peers) have. 60%+ students of color & international at the former, vs 30% at Rhodes. Single digit acceptance rates at the former vs ~60% at Rhodes. 91%/93% ranked top 10% (with a higher percent with an official rank vs. Rhodes). 1440-1540 at Amherst (35% submitting), 32-35 ACT at Amherst (31%). Pomona: 1480-1550 (37%), 33-35 (29%).

Not to mention getting the top end of scores makes an acceptance to Rhodes almost guaranteed. Amherst, Williams, and Pomona reject at least 80% of those with academic standards above their 75% range. There is a huge difference.

[Anonymous]

All of those schools have extremely low acceptance. Better be sure you have a backup plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do actually think there is a difference between the top schools and the others. We visited a ton of SLACs in the last year and attended SLACs ourselves. Obviously some of the ranking differences are arbitrary but these schools are not all the same.

+1. How many students/parents would choose Rhodes over Williams, for example?

No one's saying they're all the same. They're just not as different academically as people think, so someone who likes the warmer weather and lower price at Rhodes should not feel like they're sacrificing anything in order to make that choice.

Upon what do you base your assumption that people SHOULD choose Williams over Rhodes? Probably a significant part of it is that USNWR has had them significantly higher ranked for over 30 years. But WHY are they ranked higher? The 3-point difference in SAT percentiles isn't enough to yield a significant difference in the level of classroom rigor or discussion, right? So what's the real difference? Take a look at the USNWR criteria and weights used to rank and tell us honestly if they're the criteria that matter most to you in a school. The quality of education at different colleges is much closer than the impression one gets from looking at how far away they are from each another in rankings.

Think about it this way. There are over 2500 4-year colleges in the US. If someone were to rank the 2500 most desirable locations on the planet to take a vacation, and you can only choose one of them to attend, would you make your decision based on the criteria those rankers chose and think that there must be a huge difference between #10 (say...Rome) and #100 (say...Zion National Park)? Not likely. There are many, many very desirable places to visit, and you would go to your own criteria for what you're looking for in a vacation and choose based on that. Your criteria would likely yield many of the same places, but in a completely different order. The same is true for colleges. The number of colleges that can satisfy any given student's needs is much large than most people believe.

If you like anecdotes, consider this: My cousin's oldest daughter turned down Penn and Hopkins to attend Catholic U. She liked the scholarship they offered and the traditional Catholic education. After 4 years, she had both a bachelor's AND a Master's in biomedical engineering, and a job as a researcher at NIH waiting for her upon graduation. She could not have hoped for better results if she'd chosen one of the other two schools.

Where did you get the idea that there's only a 3 percentage point difference between the SAT scores of entering students at Rhodes and Williams??? For the most recent entering class for which stats are available for both school -- the entering class of 2020 --the mid-50 percent range for Rhodes is 1250 to 1400 and for Williams it's 1430 to 1540. Assuming the mean for Rhodes was 1325 and doe Williams 1485, we're talking about the 88th percentile versus the 97th. That ain't three points.

It helps to make sure your facts are right before you pontificate.

Actually, the data for the entering class of 2021 is available for Rhodes, and their range is 1320-1450, making the median 1385; interestingly, they are still requiring test scores despite the pandemic. The most recent year Williams required test scores was for the entering class of 2018, for which their range was 1410-1550, yielding a median of 1480.

You're apparently using the percentile chart for those who actually take the SAT, while I prefer the one for the nationally representative sample. When talking about how capable a student is intellectually, I believe comparing them to the entire population makes more sense. On this chart, Williams' 1480 corresponds to the 99th percentile. Rhodes' 1385 is midway between the 96th and 97th percentiles, so I rounded down in order to avoid anyone thinking I was taking undue advantage to make a point.

I agree that it "helps to make sure your facts are right before you pontificate".

Rhodes has published their latest common data set (CDS). Only 12% submitted a SAT, and 32% the ACT. Testing is not a requirement. The ACT range was 28-32.

According to the CDS, 66% of the students ranked in the top 10% of their class. Williams is consistently 90%+, a percent similar to the Ivy league schools and other top 20 universities.

While Williams hasn't posted their latest CDS yet, Amherst and Pomona (two similar peers) have. 60%+ students of color & international at the former, vs 30% at Rhodes. Single digit acceptance rates at the former vs ~60% at Rhodes. 91%/93% ranked top 10% (with a higher percent with an official rank vs. Rhodes). 1440-1540 at Amherst (35% submitting), 32-35 ACT at Amherst (31%). Pomona: 1480-1550 (37%), 33-35 (29%).

Not to mention getting the top end of scores makes an acceptance to Rhodes almost guaranteed. Amherst, Williams, and Pomona reject at least 80% of those with academic standards above their 75% range. There is a huge difference.

Yup, you're right. I skipped right over the percentage who submitted scores because they checked the box that said that scores were required. I'm not sure what to make of that. One of those bits of information is incorrect (that tests were required or the percentage submitting), so I shouldn't have used that data. The 2020 SAT median still puts them in the 93rd percentile, though, and I'd argue that a difference of 6 percentile points is not going to make a huge difference in the rigor of classes or level of classroom discussion.

Class rank is not a good measure to use. Fewer than half of high schools rank their students.

Acceptance rates are not a good measure, because they're easily manipulated and are heavily based on people's perceptions of prestige.

I agree that the lower level of diversity at Rhodes would probably keep me from applying to Rhodes, but my argument isn't that people SHOULD choose Rhodes over Williams, but that those who are extremely capable who do for whatever reason are still going to have the same opportunity for a successful future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The rankings can change quite a bit over time. As I said, Vassar dropped 9 or 19 spots in one year. Do you really think the school changed that much? Reed refused to play along from the beginning and is commonly believed to be a much stronger school than the ranking would reveal.

You've just named two outliers. This isn't common at all.

I named them because I specifically suggested Vassar if the OP’s child is interested in a school like Wes and, when I came up with a list along those lines of possible schools, someone responded with a ranking list. I’m not writing the long anti-ranking posts but I do think they have to be taken with a grain of salt. The OP listed four rather different schools and I asked what they liked about them because perhaps we can help with similar schools to consider and/or visit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do actually think there is a difference between the top schools and the others. We visited a ton of SLACs in the last year and attended SLACs ourselves. Obviously some of the ranking differences are arbitrary but these schools are not all the same.

+1. How many students/parents would choose Rhodes over Williams, for example?

No one's saying they're all the same. They're just not as different academically as people think, so someone who likes the warmer weather and lower price at Rhodes should not feel like they're sacrificing anything in order to make that choice.

Upon what do you base your assumption that people SHOULD choose Williams over Rhodes? Probably a significant part of it is that USNWR has had them significantly higher ranked for over 30 years. But WHY are they ranked higher? The 3-point difference in SAT percentiles isn't enough to yield a significant difference in the level of classroom rigor or discussion, right? So what's the real difference? Take a look at the USNWR criteria and weights used to rank and tell us honestly if they're the criteria that matter most to you in a school. The quality of education at different colleges is much closer than the impression one gets from looking at how far away they are from each another in rankings.

Think about it this way. There are over 2500 4-year colleges in the US. If someone were to rank the 2500 most desirable locations on the planet to take a vacation, and you can only choose one of them to attend, would you make your decision based on the criteria those rankers chose and think that there must be a huge difference between #10 (say...Rome) and #100 (say...Zion National Park)? Not likely. There are many, many very desirable places to visit, and you would go to your own criteria for what you're looking for in a vacation and choose based on that. Your criteria would likely yield many of the same places, but in a completely different order. The same is true for colleges. The number of colleges that can satisfy any given student's needs is much large than most people believe.

If you like anecdotes, consider this: My cousin's oldest daughter turned down Penn and Hopkins to attend Catholic U. She liked the scholarship they offered and the traditional Catholic education. After 4 years, she had both a bachelor's AND a Master's in biomedical engineering, and a job as a researcher at NIH waiting for her upon graduation. She could not have hoped for better results if she'd chosen one of the other two schools.

Where did you get the idea that there's only a 3 percentage point difference between the SAT scores of entering students at Rhodes and Williams??? For the most recent entering class for which stats are available for both school -- the entering class of 2020 --the mid-50 percent range for Rhodes is 1250 to 1400 and for Williams it's 1430 to 1540. Assuming the mean for Rhodes was 1325 and doe Williams 1485, we're talking about the 88th percentile versus the 97th. That ain't three points.

It helps to make sure your facts are right before you pontificate.

Actually, the data for the entering class of 2021 is available for Rhodes, and their range is 1320-1450, making the median 1385; interestingly, they are still requiring test scores despite the pandemic. The most recent year Williams required test scores was for the entering class of 2018, for which their range was 1410-1550, yielding a median of 1480.

You're apparently using the percentile chart for those who actually take the SAT, while I prefer the one for the nationally representative sample. When talking about how capable a student is intellectually, I believe comparing them to the entire population makes more sense. On this chart, Williams' 1480 corresponds to the 99th percentile. Rhodes' 1385 is midway between the 96th and 97th percentiles, so I rounded down in order to avoid anyone thinking I was taking undue advantage to make a point.

I agree that it "helps to make sure your facts are right before you pontificate".

That you "prefer" a certain reporting method doesn't make it so. You're seriously trying to argue with a straight face that the average Williams student is so insignificantly more academically qualified than a Rhodes student that it makes no difference? Ok.

We get it, CTCL booster.

Start another thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole argument about whether it makes a meaningful difference to attend a T10 SLAC or a T100 SLAC is interesting and there are reasonable points to be made on both sides. But you know, that's not what the OP asked. S/he asked about the vibe at 4 specific schools, all of which are near the top of the barrel in terms of selectivity.

Whomever it is that's writing lengthy diatribes about how rankings don't matter, why don't you start a separate post and let the OP and others of us who are interested continue to get useful feedback on the schools her kid is interested in applying to.

Exactly. Basically the thread derailed as follows: I tried answering OP's question by observing that when my kid applied to Wesleyan they put the vibe in a similar basket to Carleton and Grinnell -- not a Swarthmore. Somebody responded by labeling those schools "crunchy" and throwing out Oberlin and a bunch of CTCL schools. Oberlin I get, maybe, but the rest, no, which I noted . . .

Next thing you know somebody is pushing Rhodes and the University of the South, which have about as much in common with OP's schools (and Grinnell and Carleton, for that matter) as, well, nothing.

Thanks for steering this thread back in the right direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The rankings can change quite a bit over time. As I said, Vassar dropped 9 or 19 spots in one year. Do you really think the school changed that much? Reed refused to play along from the beginning and is commonly believed to be a much stronger school than the ranking would reveal.

You've just named two outliers. This isn't common at all.

I named them because I specifically suggested Vassar if the OP’s child is interested in a school like Wes and, when I came up with a list along those lines of possible schools, someone responded with a ranking list. I’m not writing the long anti-ranking posts but I do think they have to be taken with a grain of salt. The OP listed four rather different schools and I asked what they liked about them because perhaps we can help with similar schools to consider and/or visit.

This is OP. I appreciate a lot of the responses but y’all lost me somewhere along the way . DC is just starting his search and he is our oldest so lots of new info for us in here.

But I can answer this question, what appeals to DC. He says: small size as is looking for close knit peer community, and ability to connect with professors (DC has always enjoyed a good relationship with teachers/coaches), friendly and welcoming student body (he is a very strong student but is laid back, and his current peer group is a mix of more intense and ones more like him - he loves doing group projects and class discussions, and I know he won’t want an environment where his more laid back attitude is in the overwhelmed minority, so maybe Swarthmore will be out fast, who knows), pretty campus/settings (“these look like what I always pictured college looking like”), access to outdoor activities like hiking and skiing, strong academics in particular in subjects like econ, history and political science. I realize these descriptors can apply to many colleges and maybe don’t apply to all the ones I listed- we are just excitedly starting this journey!

[Anonymous]

One more thing I’ll add from OP - DC’s friends are not all cut from one cloth and have a variety of interests/passions and he loves that - he (and they all) learn from each other and expose each other to new things. He’ll want to enjoy even more of that in college!

[Anonymous]

OP, I’m a PP whose kid is very interested in Wesleyan, and FWIW your kid sounds a lot like mine. He loved the Wesleyan tour, and from what we know about the school it really does seem like a great fit for him. (I suspect he’ll also check out Vassar and Brown.)

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm the parent whose kid ended up at Grinnell and I have to say that they too really, really, really loved the Wesleyan tour and had they gotten in there is no question they would have struck Carleton right off the list and it would have come down to Wesleyan and Grinnell -- and it would have been a tough decision only because of Grinnell's merit aid. As it turned out, they were never faced with that choice, and in the end it worked out very well anyway, as these things tend to do.

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm a Swarthmore alum and think its pressure-cooker rep is overstated, though it does attract intense and self-motivated (but very quirky) kids. But for your kid's stated priority list, I should note that while it has a gorgeous campus, it really doesn't have access to outdoor activities beyond the campus. Its setting is decidedly suburban.

Your son might want to focus on schools in somewhat more remote settings to get outdoorsy activity options and classmates.

[Anonymous]

I don’t see the Swarth/Wes analogy at all…..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The rankings can change quite a bit over time. As I said, Vassar dropped 9 or 19 spots in one year. Do you really think the school changed that much? Reed refused to play along from the beginning and is commonly believed to be a much stronger school than the ranking would reveal.

You've just named two outliers. This isn't common at all.

I named them because I specifically suggested Vassar if the OP’s child is interested in a school like Wes and, when I came up with a list along those lines of possible schools, someone responded with a ranking list. I’m not writing the long anti-ranking posts but I do think they have to be taken with a grain of salt. The OP listed four rather different schools and I asked what they liked about them because perhaps we can help with similar schools to consider and/or visit.

This is OP. I appreciate a lot of the responses but y’all lost me somewhere along the way . DC is just starting his search and he is our oldest so lots of new info for us in here.

But I can answer this question, what appeals to DC. He says: small size as is looking for close knit peer community, and ability to connect with professors (DC has always enjoyed a good relationship with teachers/coaches), friendly and welcoming student body (he is a very strong student but is laid back, and his current peer group is a mix of more intense and ones more like him - he loves doing group projects and class discussions, and I know he won’t want an environment where his more laid back attitude is in the overwhelmed minority, so maybe Swarthmore will be out fast, who knows), pretty campus/settings (“these look like what I always pictured college looking like”), access to outdoor activities like hiking and skiing, strong academics in particular in subjects like econ, history and political science. I realize these descriptors can apply to many colleges and maybe don’t apply to all the ones I listed- we are just excitedly starting this journey!

Based on what you’ve described you should consider looking at Hamilton as well.