Parents making "pact not to pursue CES & get more enrichment @ home school...anyone pulled this off?

[Anonymous]

OP, there are so many ways this could backfire. I don't think all the families in your "cohort" would necessarily stick to your plan. And I don't think the principal would think very highly of your bargain.

Worst, I'm pretty sure that your identification of a "cohort" is missing some kids. What a horrible feeling it would be to be the parent of an unidentified bright kid who accidentally found out that one parent had "rounded up" a bunch of smart kids who were agreeing to stay with the less-smart kids ... and her family wasn't included on your list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:LOL! The reality is that the largest group that will be shat upon by MCPS in the magnet selection will be Asian-Americans. They have the most to lose because college and jobs are stacked against their children. Magnet or enriched education is a necessity for them for college admissions, not just a "good to have". If the magnet education is not available to their children, they will do their best to enrich by themselves because they are not lacking in education themselves. They are also likely to spend on education by cutting corners on every other aspect of their life because it is a swim or sink scenario for them. They are also likely to have least amount of faith on MCPS or any talk of "equity" because they know that they are targeted. So, it is hard to get them to "speak up" against the administration as they don't want any retaliatory action against their kids. They have learned to bite their tongue and just work harder. Anyways, it is nice of OP to think of the whole community and I wish her best of luck.

Also, "brain drain" is a lot better than "brain in the drain".

I'm Asian, and this is all true. It's weird that after spending my childhood in a European country, and never ever feeling targeted in any way, I come here to what I supposed was an even more enlightened country, and feel that our last names and looks shunt my children from the yes pile to the maybe pile. My husband was assaulted by a screaming woman in our neighborhood, who threw her dog poo bag at him and called him names. In Bethesda.

So weird.

I can't tell what you mean by "yes pile" or "maybe pile." Are you talking about magnet admissions? Or college admissions? Because the thing working against you in magnet admissions isn't your race, it's your zip code. It's harder to get in from the highest income parts of the county.

I'm sorry you faced anti-Asian violence in your Bethesda community. That's truly awful. I hope your husband and kids are able to feel safe.

Oh, that’s not true at all.

It has been well-documented that Asians are discriminated against in college admissions. And in the workplace. Try getting out of your bubble.

Yes, you are right. But not magnet admissions- those are race blind at the moment.

LOL. Creating the largest pool of candidates by lowering standards is a way to deny high achieving Asian-Americans spots in the magnet program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm 99% sure I know what school you are talking about and they do have ELC. The school is already offering the maximum availalbe outside the CES, and MCPS is going to identify some number of kids from that school no matter what you say or do.

So, by all means hold your child out of the lottery if you feel doing so is a better fit for your values, but you will not get any more enrichment as a result because it's already at the maximum setting possible.

+1

[Anonymous]

I don't think your idea will work at all.

When parents want to be organized officially for something, you get a place on the table only if you come through PTA. PTA goals are for all students. The maximum you will be able to do is sit on the curriculum committees etc. Also, the Principal will show you all the enrichment that the district is already giving and so there is no need for further enrichment. No Principal will agree that there is anything lacking in the school offerings.

Finally, how do you determine who should be in your group? Top 3% of the school? Top 5% of the school? What makes you think that the other parents will agree to your categorization of who is worth to be in your "group"?

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Oh, for goodness' sake.

This is OP. I tried to ignore this thread after it became clear it had devolved into the DCUM usual.

The PP who is "99% sure" they know this school is incorrect, because we do NOT have ELC.

I take the point about removing Black/Latine kids if white and Asian parents make a "pact"-- not the ideal term and I'm well aware it's not legally binding!-- but the families I'm thinking of are racially diverse, too. Not just white and Asian American.

That said, it absolutely does NOT follow that all of the people who don't pull themselves from the pool would automatically get in, because others have pulled themselves. That's not how this works. Unless you think it's better simply to have fewer white and Asian American kids, in order to maintain a smaller disparity? Oh, yes, very healthy.

In any event, a big part of my point is that VERY VERY VERY smart Black and Latine kids are typically overlooked when it comes to CES anyway.

The people speculating on my not knowing who fits into this cohort-- like I don't know the lower-income kids who would 1 million percent fit into it--like I said a thousand times!-- are way off. And anyone, in any way, thinking I'm trying to create some sort of Elite Pact Group... your reading comprehension stinks.

"how do you determine who should be in your group? Top 3% of the school? Top 5% of the school? What makes you think that the other parents will agree to your categorization of who is worth to be in your "group"?"

WTH are you even talking about? I was never suggesting any such thing. I was simply saying I know more than a couple of other families whose kids are CLEARLY in the "top 15%" HALF OF WHICH ARE BLACK AND LATINE STUDENTS and would prefer to stay at our school, and that having some consensus among those few families might be a mere start if they generally agree (not legally binding!) that they would stay as long as their kids educational needs could be met.

Maybe they'll be met just fine!

But, again-- too many people are reading this as some sort of elitism, when it is quite the opposite.

The goal is to keep the school's top 15% largely in the school, and not to drastically change its demographics.

Please explain to me how this is elitist.

Ugh-- no, don't. I've used up all my exclamation points!!!! for the rest of the calendar year.

Has everyone missed that my kid is a POC?

Sorry you can't imagine a person making a request of a school who is NOT trying to advantage their already privileged kid at the expense of other kids-- in fact, largely making the request to benefit other kids.

Peace out.

[Anonymous]

Take it easy, do you till expect that much from MCPS, just go to school to have party and have fun, then homeschool the kid after school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh, for goodness' sake.

This is OP. I tried to ignore this thread after it became clear it had devolved into the DCUM usual.

The PP who is "99% sure" they know this school is incorrect, because we do NOT have ELC.

I take the point about removing Black/Latine kids if white and Asian parents make a "pact"-- not the ideal term and I'm well aware it's not legally binding!-- but the families I'm thinking of are racially diverse, too. Not just white and Asian American.

That said, it absolutely does NOT follow that all of the people who don't pull themselves from the pool would automatically get in, because others have pulled themselves. That's not how this works. Unless you think it's better simply to have fewer white and Asian American kids, in order to maintain a smaller disparity? Oh, yes, very healthy.

In any event, a big part of my point is that VERY VERY VERY smart Black and Latine kids are typically overlooked when it comes to CES anyway.

The people speculating on my not knowing who fits into this cohort-- like I don't know the lower-income kids who would 1 million percent fit into it--like I said a thousand times!-- are way off. And anyone, in any way, thinking I'm trying to create some sort of Elite Pact Group... your reading comprehension stinks.

"how do you determine who should be in your group? Top 3% of the school? Top 5% of the school? What makes you think that the other parents will agree to your categorization of who is worth to be in your "group"?"

WTH are you even talking about? I was never suggesting any such thing. I was simply saying I know more than a couple of other families whose kids are CLEARLY in the "top 15%" HALF OF WHICH ARE BLACK AND LATINE STUDENTS and would prefer to stay at our school, and that having some consensus among those few families might be a mere start if they generally agree (not legally binding!) that they would stay as long as their kids educational needs could be met.

Maybe they'll be met just fine!

But, again-- too many people are reading this as some sort of elitism, when it is quite the opposite.

The goal is to keep the school's top 15% largely in the school, and not to drastically change its demographics.

Please explain to me how this is elitist.

Ugh-- no, don't. I've used up all my exclamation points!!!! for the rest of the calendar year.

Has everyone missed that my kid is a POC?

Sorry you can't imagine a person making a request of a school who is NOT trying to advantage their already privileged kid at the expense of other kids-- in fact, largely making the request to benefit other kids.

Peace out.

OP, principals will be quite reassuring because they like keeping bright kids at their school for higher test scores and easy student counts that don’t require a lot of teacher resources. You will never get the same level of enrichment as you would at a CES and anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is ignorant or lying. Case in point, lots of people feel that the math curriculum is the same and that the CES is just about ELA enrichment. It reality, it isn’t. Because the kids are so bright, they get through the math curriculum a lot faster and get to do extra projects. They get a lot more science - some programs offer it almost every day, as opposed to regular elementary. The ELA is far and beyond the few hours of enrichment a week you MIGHT get at your home school. For these reasons, it is inappropriate to approach other parents and ask them to discuss whether they would keep their kids out of the pool. It is a major opportunity and a very private family decision. Your best path forward is to advocate for as much enrichment as you can at your home school and leave CES decisions out of it. You can see how happy your DD is with even some enrichment available: many very bright kids just need to have enough to feel they aren’t being ignored by their school in order to feel happy and engaged in ES, and if kids/families are happy, they’ll stay. No one loves to uproot their kid like that. Parents of the unhappiest kids tend to be very quiet about how frustrated their child might be because they are afraid to sound like they are bragging: they are likely dealing with tears of rage every night and will send their kid to CES if they get the chance, no matter what you do. There really is an excellent chance that you don’t have any idea who they are.

I want to add that our CES is mostly POC. I wish the county would offer more CES slots, since the availability is clearly far less than the need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:LOL! The reality is that the largest group that will be shat upon by MCPS in the magnet selection will be Asian-Americans. They have the most to lose because college and jobs are stacked against their children. Magnet or enriched education is a necessity for them for college admissions, not just a "good to have". If the magnet education is not available to their children, they will do their best to enrich by themselves because they are not lacking in education themselves. They are also likely to spend on education by cutting corners on every other aspect of their life because it is a swim or sink scenario for them. They are also likely to have least amount of faith on MCPS or any talk of "equity" because they know that they are targeted. So, it is hard to get them to "speak up" against the administration as they don't want any retaliatory action against their kids. They have learned to bite their tongue and just work harder. Anyways, it is nice of OP to think of the whole community and I wish her best of luck.

Also, "brain drain" is a lot better than "brain in the drain".

I'm Asian, and this is all true. It's weird that after spending my childhood in a European country, and never ever feeling targeted in any way, I come here to what I supposed was an even more enlightened country, and feel that our last names and looks shunt my children from the yes pile to the maybe pile. My husband was assaulted by a screaming woman in our neighborhood, who threw her dog poo bag at him and called him names. In Bethesda.

So weird.

It's also a good way to blunt the impact of external cram schools available to those with means skewing selection by making average kids appear gifted

I can't tell what you mean by "yes pile" or "maybe pile." Are you talking about magnet admissions? Or college admissions? Because the thing working against you in magnet admissions isn't your race, it's your zip code. It's harder to get in from the highest income parts of the county.

I'm sorry you faced anti-Asian violence in your Bethesda community. That's truly awful. I hope your husband and kids are able to feel safe.

Oh, that’s not true at all.

It has been well-documented that Asians are discriminated against in college admissions. And in the workplace. Try getting out of your bubble.

Yes, you are right. But not magnet admissions- those are race blind at the moment.

LOL. Creating the largest pool of candidates by lowering standards is a way to deny high achieving Asian-Americans spots in the magnet program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, for goodness' sake.

This is OP. I tried to ignore this thread after it became clear it had devolved into the DCUM usual.

The PP who is "99% sure" they know this school is incorrect, because we do NOT have ELC.

I take the point about removing Black/Latine kids if white and Asian parents make a "pact"-- not the ideal term and I'm well aware it's not legally binding!-- but the families I'm thinking of are racially diverse, too. Not just white and Asian American.

That said, it absolutely does NOT follow that all of the people who don't pull themselves from the pool would automatically get in, because others have pulled themselves. That's not how this works. Unless you think it's better simply to have fewer white and Asian American kids, in order to maintain a smaller disparity? Oh, yes, very healthy.

In any event, a big part of my point is that VERY VERY VERY smart Black and Latine kids are typically overlooked when it comes to CES anyway.

The people speculating on my not knowing who fits into this cohort-- like I don't know the lower-income kids who would 1 million percent fit into it--like I said a thousand times!-- are way off. And anyone, in any way, thinking I'm trying to create some sort of Elite Pact Group... your reading comprehension stinks.

"how do you determine who should be in your group? Top 3% of the school? Top 5% of the school? What makes you think that the other parents will agree to your categorization of who is worth to be in your "group"?"

WTH are you even talking about? I was never suggesting any such thing. I was simply saying I know more than a couple of other families whose kids are CLEARLY in the "top 15%" HALF OF WHICH ARE BLACK AND LATINE STUDENTS and would prefer to stay at our school, and that having some consensus among those few families might be a mere start if they generally agree (not legally binding!) that they would stay as long as their kids educational needs could be met.

Maybe they'll be met just fine!

But, again-- too many people are reading this as some sort of elitism, when it is quite the opposite.

The goal is to keep the school's top 15% largely in the school, and not to drastically change its demographics.

Please explain to me how this is elitist.

Ugh-- no, don't. I've used up all my exclamation points!!!! for the rest of the calendar year.

Has everyone missed that my kid is a POC?

Sorry you can't imagine a person making a request of a school who is NOT trying to advantage their already privileged kid at the expense of other kids-- in fact, largely making the request to benefit other kids.

Peace out.

OP, principals will be quite reassuring because they like keeping bright kids at their school for higher test scores and easy student counts that don’t require a lot of teacher resources. You will never get the same level of enrichment as you would at a CES and anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is ignorant or lying. Case in point, lots of people feel that the math curriculum is the same and that the CES is just about ELA enrichment. It reality, it isn’t. Because the kids are so bright, they get through the math curriculum a lot faster and get to do extra projects. They get a lot more science - some programs offer it almost every day, as opposed to regular elementary. The ELA is far and beyond the few hours of enrichment a week you MIGHT get at your home school. For these reasons, it is inappropriate to approach other parents and ask them to discuss whether they would keep their kids out of the pool. It is a major opportunity and a very private family decision. Your best path forward is to advocate for as much enrichment as you can at your home school and leave CES decisions out of it. You can see how happy your DD is with even some enrichment available: many very bright kids just need to have enough to feel they aren’t being ignored by their school in order to feel happy and engaged in ES, and if kids/families are happy, they’ll stay. No one loves to uproot their kid like that. Parents of the unhappiest kids tend to be very quiet about how frustrated their child might be because they are afraid to sound like they are bragging: they are likely dealing with tears of rage every night and will send their kid to CES if they get the chance, no matter what you do. There really is an excellent chance that you don’t have any idea who they are.

I want to add that our CES is mostly POC. I wish the county would offer more CES slots, since the availability is clearly far less than the need.

This sounds like a plan to get other parents to drop out to improve their kid's chances at CES admission.

[Anonymous]

The PP who is "99% sure" they know this school is incorrect, because we do NOT have ELC.

Check the list here: https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/enriched/programs/elc.aspx

That said, it absolutely does NOT follow that all of the people who don't pull themselves from the pool would automatically get in, because others have pulled themselves. That's not how this works. Unless you think it's better simply to have fewer white and Asian American kids, in order to maintain a smaller disparity? Oh, yes, very healthy.

MCPS has clearly said they are trying to balance admissions to have representation from every school. So somebody's kid is going to go. You can't just abstain from sending any kids from a certain school, because MCPS will keep moving along the list until they find someone to say yes.

Has everyone missed that my kid is a POC?

This is a rhetorical slight of hand that I hate on DCUM. You have very clearly shown that you know the language of social and educational justice, so you know that in this very specific case, we need to talk about Black and Latine kids separately from white and Asian American kids. But here you default to POC (a bigger umbrella that includes Asian Americans) because you want the rhetorical shield. If your child was Black of Latine you would have said so, and if you were a POC, you would have said so already. So you KNOW that we need to talk about Asian American and biracial Asian American kids separately from Black and Latine kids here, for a whole laundry list of reasons having to do with whether that group is under-represented in the magnet programs.

Your intentions are obviously good, and I commend you for that, but don't treat marginalization like a coat you can take on and off, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, there are so many ways this could backfire. I don't think all the families in your "cohort" would necessarily stick to your plan. And I don't think the principal would think very highly of your bargain.

Worst, I'm pretty sure that your identification of a "cohort" is missing some kids. What a horrible feeling it would be to be the parent of an unidentified bright kid who accidentally found out that one parent had "rounded up" a bunch of smart kids who were agreeing to stay with the less-smart kids ... and her family wasn't included on your list.

I love this point. I'm the parent of two kids in MCPS magnets and, even as a SAHM with time to burn (pre-covid) volunteering in the classroom, on field trips, etc., I find that I don't know who tests well. I know who speaks well to adults, who drags books along on the bus ride, and who has "good classroom skills" but that's only one small sliver of who might actually be "gifted."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DD (3rd grade) attends a small FOCUS ES that is SES diverse, but for all of the reasons we know, usually sends almost exclusively kids from $100k HHI+ families to the CES, when they make up <25% of our school’s student body. Because of all of these factors, our school's 4th and 5th grade tend to skew even poorer and less-resourced. This has been a little less true this year, thanks to the randomness of the lottery, which I think is good. It also means less of a “brain drain” from our school (ugh, so to speak).

Both my kid's MAP math and reading scores are slightly above the 99th percentile. At her ES, they've put her into a pull-out class for math, 3 days/week, for ~8-10 students out of the ~75 in the grade. She really likes it, and it’s awesome, because she’s otherwise starting to find school “boring” and I’d love for her to have more enrichment. Of course, I’d love that for all students, but I digress.

At least one of the parents of another 99th-percentile-ish kid would far prefer her kid to stay in our school, though that kid definitely needs enrichment as well. I am also close enough with two of the other families that have kids that will almost certainly be in the CES lottery pool, and probably would have been selected even in pre-COVID years. I think they would also lean towards keeping their kids out of the pool IF we had something more to offer them at our home school. Given the lottery standards, there are surely another 10 kids, if not more, that could be in the pool, too, and I know some of them as well. That means... there's a cohort here! So we should have more enrichment?

The question is… what can be negotiated with the principal? If I can get several families to commit to staying at our school (5 families would represent as many as half of the very highest scoring kids), would that provide us any leverage? E.g., we take our kids out of the running for CES, so you’ll keep our high-scoring students, and in return, you provide us with additional enrichment?

Our school already has compacted math, and some sort of enhanced literacy in 4th/5th, but I think it's still Benchmark-based and not what I am reading might be termed "ELC". Is even something like ELC possible to add on? I know this isn't a fully-answerable question, just trying to brainstorm. Principal is generally a flexible, open-minded person and might be willing to make something happen— IF it’s possible and IF there’s something in it for them.

Any thoughts? Anyone do anything like this, or know of someone who has? Thanks so much.

This is a post from 2021. What did you end up doing, OP?

[Anonymous]

You're not going to get meaningful enrichment at the home school, OP. Not anywhere near what the CES provides, since the teachers of the CES are trained, they have a different curriculum than the standard one, and the body of students is academically superior.

My second kid went to the CES. It was great, even though Covid hit during part of that time. My oldest stayed at our home elementary and his 5th grade teacher organized a vocabulary group where he learned a host of words, and that was fun. But compared to what my CES kid was exposed to, it was a blip in the curriculum.

Either have your kid stay at the home school, or send them to the CES. But don't dream of more than lip-service "enrichment" at your home elementary. That's just not going to happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would drop any talk of reassurances or any kind of quid pro quo. Just ask the principal about how a school gets an ELC and if it’s an option for your school. With the lottery, chances are some chunk of the kids you’re taking about will be staying put.

+1. Also a fair number of families who choose CES do so because their kids are unhappy at home school, sometime for social reasons and are looking for a different cohort. I don’t know why parents would make some sort of pact to keep their kids in a school where they are unhappy and perhaps being bullied. I just don’t see this plan as at all realistic.