COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think what we’re seeing in this thread is the last gasp of people who wish Moms for Liberty had been successful in turning school closures into an issue that won school board elections, and are upset that it turns out they are a bunch of political failures.

Is that what you think we're seeing? I think we're seeing people correctly observing that school closures and other restrictions were pointless. The upside is that when we next encountered a threat (monkey pox), the collective reaction was STFU about it.

They were not pointless. They were necessary.

Nah, they were pointless. When you had to mask on the 30-second walk to your restaurant table but could remain unmasked after that...yeah, pointless.

Nope, not pointless, protocols saved lives. Your not liking them (which is your prerogative there isn't a feelings police) does not equal pointless.

Where is the evidence of this? The spread wasn’t contained. Everybody gets infected, and now it’s evolved into a fairly benign illness. Vaccines don’t explain that since most people haven’t gotten a booster in ages.

2020/2021 is done and gone. No one is going to prison or will be executed for the protocols. Your dreams will not come true.

You’re responding to multiple posters. And yes, 2020/21 is done and gone, and those mistakes won’t be repeated again. The restrictionists used up all their capital. That’s the only silver lining out of all this.

Not even remotely true, but I know you need to tell yourself this, so have fun. Shrug.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The problem with this example is that Sweden is a small, culturally homogenous, fairly wealthy country in a northern climate. Would the same approach have the same outcome in the US? Probably not.

Like questions I'd want answered include:

- Did high conscientiousness among Swedish people result in voluntary social distancing during Covid peaks even without lockdowns?

- Did the climate in Sweden, with just a short summer season, allow Sweden to avoid the worst of the pandemic because people there socialize less outside their families in cold months anyway?

- Did Sweden's strong social safety net play a role?

I do tend to think that hard, very restrictive lockdowns likely have less of an effect on death rates than we think, and also that prolonged lockdowns have real costs that we are still reluctant to acknowledge in many cases.

The problem is that this is a topic that’s such a magnet for propagandists and kooks that it’s hard to have a rational discussion about this.

We’re the descendants of people who survived endless waves of epidemics.

Chances are that, given a few days’ notice, people will spontaneously, instinctively, ferociously enforce any lockdowns that are really necessary.

The sign that the lockdowns stopped being necessary once we had access to masks is that plenty of ordinary people rebelled against the lockdowns after about two or three weeks.

But, on the other hand, it seems a little silly to judge the people who imposed the lockdowns. For the first few weeks, they had no idea what they were really up against.

And it’s not really fair to compare the United States with another country, because we probably don’t know what combination of virus variants, immune system genes and antibodies people went into the pandemic with.

Maybe the United States had worse results because a tougher strain dominated here, or because we had more people with genes that made them vulnerable to COVID.

Another problem is that it’s easy to assume that anyone who brings up the topic is a Russian or Chinese social media outreach worker who mainly wants to stir up trouble, install a fascist puppet government in Washington and help Putin conquer Europe.

I think most people remember and understand the uncertainty that came in the spring of 2020, and can forgive all but the silliest restrictions (e.g., closed playgrounds).

The issue is that many restrictions continued long after that initial knee-jerk reaction to a new risk.

They were not silly restrictions. They were in place to reduce hospitalizations for a highly contagious illness where hospital beds and ventilators were scarce. If you are so upset over being asked to stay home for a few weeks, you really need your mental health checked.

But it wasn't for a few weeks. It was a year and a half or so for public school kids.

In retrospect, Fauci and the others that recommended publics remain closed. While privates remained open. And bars. And restaurants. And retail.

I mean, really. Federal and local governments threw kids under the bus.

Will never forgive them for that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what we’re seeing in this thread is the last gasp of people who wish Moms for Liberty had been successful in turning school closures into an issue that won school board elections, and are upset that it turns out they are a bunch of political failures.

Is that what you think we're seeing? I think we're seeing people correctly observing that school closures and other restrictions were pointless. The upside is that when we next encountered a threat (monkey pox), the collective reaction was STFU about it.

They were not pointless. They were necessary.

Nah, they were pointless. When you had to mask on the 30-second walk to your restaurant table but could remain unmasked after that...yeah, pointless.

Nope, not pointless, protocols saved lives. Your not liking them (which is your prerogative there isn't a feelings police) does not equal pointless.

Where is the evidence of this? The spread wasn’t contained. Everybody gets infected, and now it’s evolved into a fairly benign illness. Vaccines don’t explain that since most people haven’t gotten a booster in ages.

2020/2021 is done and gone. No one is going to prison or will be executed for the protocols. Your dreams will not come true.

You’re responding to multiple posters. And yes, 2020/21 is done and gone, and those mistakes won’t be repeated again. The restrictionists used up all their capital. That’s the only silver lining out of all this.

Not even remotely true, but I know you need to tell yourself this, so have fun. Shrug.

I don't need to tell myself. It's just the truth. Restrictions are only coming back for some ebola-like, world-ending virus. Not a bad cold. Anything short of that will garner huge pushback from both sides of the political spectrum. There just aren't enough of you impractical, zero-illness types to move policy this time.

[Anonymous]

Florida is 12th for highest mortality rate in the US for Covid deaths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Florida is 12th for highest mortality rate in the US for Covid deaths.

Yes but they have a much older population. The fact it’s only 12th practically proves the restrictions were pointless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what we’re seeing in this thread is the last gasp of people who wish Moms for Liberty had been successful in turning school closures into an issue that won school board elections, and are upset that it turns out they are a bunch of political failures.

Is that what you think we're seeing? I think we're seeing people correctly observing that school closures and other restrictions were pointless. The upside is that when we next encountered a threat (monkey pox), the collective reaction was STFU about it.

They were not pointless. They were necessary.

Nah, they were pointless. When you had to mask on the 30-second walk to your restaurant table but could remain unmasked after that...yeah, pointless.

Nope, not pointless, protocols saved lives. Your not liking them (which is your prerogative there isn't a feelings police) does not equal pointless.

Where is the evidence of this? The spread wasn’t contained. Everybody gets infected, and now it’s evolved into a fairly benign illness. Vaccines don’t explain that since most people haven’t gotten a booster in ages.

2020/2021 is done and gone. No one is going to prison or will be executed for the protocols. Your dreams will not come true.

You’re responding to multiple posters. And yes, 2020/21 is done and gone, and those mistakes won’t be repeated again. The restrictionists used up all their capital. That’s the only silver lining out of all this.

Not even remotely true, but I know you need to tell yourself this, so have fun. Shrug.

DP, but I'd describe it a bit differently. It's not so much a matter of political capital. Instead, even the Democrats learned once you start down the path of restrictions and closures, it is hard to turn it around. When they wanted to, e.g., reopen schools, they couldn't do it. Same goes for lifting mask mandates and various capacity restrictions. It seemed like they naively assumed covid would "go away" like some on this forum, perhaps due to misleading statements from public health officials about herd immunity.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

What are you talking about? There were plenty of people who questioned everything and did whatever they wanted anyway. It’s not like the police came and arrested people for expressing dissenting views. Even in early covid when people were dying, plenty of people questioned why they had to be inconvenienced to save other people’s lives and behaved accordingly. Lockdowns were never going to work in this country because we are a narcissistic and selfish society who rarely behave for the greater good of community.

+1 million - one of the most notable things about the COVID response was the almost immediate rise of a faction of loud people that were determined to push back against any measure that would inconvenience them in the slightest.

The measures were dumb. Just delaying the inevitable.

It was beneficial to delay until vaccines were available

Natural resistance could have built up in the interim. That’s the primary defense now. Not many are getting the vaccine these days.

Covid has killed off the majority that it will and it’s mutated to being less serious which is what was the goal. The vaccines don’t stop transmission.

People don’t seem to care that many millions died prematurely from Covid. Kids lost their families.

And? Restrictions wouldn't have helped either. Those people still would have become infected.

Getting infected after vaccination reduced deaths. Fewer people died. The restrictions made sense until vaccines were available.

How do you know this? I believed this at the time but now looking back it seems like the virus got weaker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Florida kept the schools open and they did fine.

No, they didn’t. They had a lot of excess deaths. If you don’t care about human suffering, they did great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Florida is 12th for highest mortality rate in the US for Covid deaths.

Yes but they have a much older population. The fact it’s only 12th practically proves the restrictions were pointless.

No. They had so many excess deaths. Age adjusted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

What are you talking about? There were plenty of people who questioned everything and did whatever they wanted anyway. It’s not like the police came and arrested people for expressing dissenting views. Even in early covid when people were dying, plenty of people questioned why they had to be inconvenienced to save other people’s lives and behaved accordingly. Lockdowns were never going to work in this country because we are a narcissistic and selfish society who rarely behave for the greater good of community.

+1 million - one of the most notable things about the COVID response was the almost immediate rise of a faction of loud people that were determined to push back against any measure that would inconvenience them in the slightest.

The measures were dumb. Just delaying the inevitable.

It was beneficial to delay until vaccines were available

Natural resistance could have built up in the interim. That’s the primary defense now. Not many are getting the vaccine these days.

Covid has killed off the majority that it will and it’s mutated to being less serious which is what was the goal. The vaccines don’t stop transmission.

People don’t seem to care that many millions died prematurely from Covid. Kids lost their families.

And? Restrictions wouldn't have helped either. Those people still would have become infected.

Getting infected after vaccination reduced deaths. Fewer people died. The restrictions made sense until vaccines were available.

How do you know this? I believed this at the time but now looking back it seems like the virus got weaker.

It got “weaker” because we were no longer an immune naive population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

What are you talking about? There were plenty of people who questioned everything and did whatever they wanted anyway. It’s not like the police came and arrested people for expressing dissenting views. Even in early covid when people were dying, plenty of people questioned why they had to be inconvenienced to save other people’s lives and behaved accordingly. Lockdowns were never going to work in this country because we are a narcissistic and selfish society who rarely behave for the greater good of community.

+1 million - one of the most notable things about the COVID response was the almost immediate rise of a faction of loud people that were determined to push back against any measure that would inconvenience them in the slightest.

The measures were dumb. Just delaying the inevitable.

It was beneficial to delay until vaccines were available

Natural resistance could have built up in the interim. That’s the primary defense now. Not many are getting the vaccine these days.

Covid has killed off the majority that it will and it’s mutated to being less serious which is what was the goal. The vaccines don’t stop transmission.

People don’t seem to care that many millions died prematurely from Covid. Kids lost their families.

And? Restrictions wouldn't have helped either. Those people still would have become infected.

Getting infected after vaccination reduced deaths. Fewer people died. The restrictions made sense until vaccines were available.

How do you know this? I believed this at the time but now looking back it seems like the virus got weaker.

It got “weaker” because we were no longer an immune naive population.

I.e, let it rip. That’s ultimately what everybody did, including China.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Florida is 12th for highest mortality rate in the US for Covid deaths.

Yes but they have a much older population. The fact it’s only 12th practically proves the restrictions were pointless.

No. They had so many excess deaths. Age adjusted.

Old people die. It’s been true for quite a while.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

What are you talking about? There were plenty of people who questioned everything and did whatever they wanted anyway. It’s not like the police came and arrested people for expressing dissenting views. Even in early covid when people were dying, plenty of people questioned why they had to be inconvenienced to save other people’s lives and behaved accordingly. Lockdowns were never going to work in this country because we are a narcissistic and selfish society who rarely behave for the greater good of community.

+1 million - one of the most notable things about the COVID response was the almost immediate rise of a faction of loud people that were determined to push back against any measure that would inconvenience them in the slightest.

The measures were dumb. Just delaying the inevitable.

It was beneficial to delay until vaccines were available

Natural resistance could have built up in the interim. That’s the primary defense now. Not many are getting the vaccine these days.

Covid has killed off the majority that it will and it’s mutated to being less serious which is what was the goal. The vaccines don’t stop transmission.

People don’t seem to care that many millions died prematurely from Covid. Kids lost their families.

And? Restrictions wouldn't have helped either. Those people still would have become infected.

Getting infected after vaccination reduced deaths. Fewer people died. The restrictions made sense until vaccines were available.

How do you know this? I believed this at the time but now looking back it seems like the virus got weaker.

It got “weaker” because we were no longer an immune naive population.

I.e, let it rip. That’s ultimately what everybody did, including China.

Vaccines

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

What are you talking about? There were plenty of people who questioned everything and did whatever they wanted anyway. It’s not like the police came and arrested people for expressing dissenting views. Even in early covid when people were dying, plenty of people questioned why they had to be inconvenienced to save other people’s lives and behaved accordingly. Lockdowns were never going to work in this country because we are a narcissistic and selfish society who rarely behave for the greater good of community.

+1 million - one of the most notable things about the COVID response was the almost immediate rise of a faction of loud people that were determined to push back against any measure that would inconvenience them in the slightest.

The measures were dumb. Just delaying the inevitable.

It was beneficial to delay until vaccines were available

Natural resistance could have built up in the interim. That’s the primary defense now. Not many are getting the vaccine these days.

Covid has killed off the majority that it will and it’s mutated to being less serious which is what was the goal. The vaccines don’t stop transmission.

People don’t seem to care that many millions died prematurely from Covid. Kids lost their families.

And? Restrictions wouldn't have helped either. Those people still would have become infected.

Getting infected after vaccination reduced deaths. Fewer people died. The restrictions made sense until vaccines were available.

How do you know this? I believed this at the time but now looking back it seems like the virus got weaker.

It got “weaker” because we were no longer an immune naive population.

I.e, let it rip. That’s ultimately what everybody did, including China.

Vaccines

Sure, they play a role. But the answer isn’t ‘wait for the vaccine’. There’s too much uncertainty in that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Florida is 12th for highest mortality rate in the US for Covid deaths.

Yes but they have a much older population. The fact it’s only 12th practically proves the restrictions were pointless.

No. They had so many excess deaths. Age adjusted.

Of course there were additional deaths after the introduction of a new virus. That's not the question. The question is whether restrictions did anything to meaningfully decrease that number, or if they just caused unnecessary additional pain and suffering.