Ruling on MCPS LGBT curriculum case coming this morning

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am curious why the Jewish and Muslim families who supported this opt out do not see how this opens the way for parents to push for opting out of having kids read story books with Jewish or Muslim characters on the basis of the religious burden that including these characters might do to Christian kids. Christian parents can argue that seeing these characters at a young age could be burdensome to their religious beliefs and that they want to introduce their kids to the existence of these types of beliefs when they are older. I think people forget that respecting diversity that includes your beliefs also means respecting diversity that does not. Anyways, I get why male, straight, Christian conservative white nationalists would celebrate this ruling. I disagree, but it makes sense. For anyone not part of this group, I do not understand.

I am Jewish and if elementary school kids did not read books about Jewish characters I would not really care. In fact, my kids have not read any school books with Jewish characters in all their time in public school - and they are both in middle school. I would not have pulled my kids out for the books in question in this case, but I also do not think your scenario would be a big concern.

What about non-fiction books. They can also object because the history class's textbook depicts a belief against theirs.

Of course they should be able to opt out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am curious why the Jewish and Muslim families who supported this opt out do not see how this opens the way for parents to push for opting out of having kids read story books with Jewish or Muslim characters on the basis of the religious burden that including these characters might do to Christian kids. Christian parents can argue that seeing these characters at a young age could be burdensome to their religious beliefs and that they want to introduce their kids to the existence of these types of beliefs when they are older. I think people forget that respecting diversity that includes your beliefs also means respecting diversity that does not. Anyways, I get why male, straight, Christian conservative white nationalists would celebrate this ruling. I disagree, but it makes sense. For anyone not part of this group, I do not understand.

I am Jewish and if elementary school kids did not read books about Jewish characters I would not really care. In fact, my kids have not read any school books with Jewish characters in all their time in public school - and they are both in middle school. I would not have pulled my kids out for the books in question in this case, but I also do not think your scenario would be a big concern.

What about non-fiction books. They can also object because the history class's textbook depicts a belief against theirs.

Only AP history gets textbooks. And, yes, if parents are uncomfortable with something, they should. You are preaching about being inclusive and non-judgmental and yet you are the opposite of that. Respect should just be about one group, it should be about all.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For the parents opting their children out of lessons because those lessons include a same sex couple family, please know that the vast majority of us judge you harshly as a bigot and your kids will likely suffer social consequences because of your intolerance. I feel bad for them, especially those who are themselves gay. Shame on you, you intolerant and insecure people.

The vibe has shifted. I think you’ll be surprised at who is judging who here.

No such thing as a "bigot". This is a fake, made up social construct that liberals made up for people who don't agree with them. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone an uneducated, narrow minded "bigot". It just means someone doesn't agree wth your social activist agenda.

It always interesting when folks throw out the phrase social activist as though that is a bad thing. They forgot that the founding fathers are social activist, the suffragist are social activist, Abolitionist are social activist, Etc etc. I’m pretty sure social activist consider themselves in good company of people who people and movements that have had transformational change good for humanity.

Oh yes the whole founding father’s argument again. Show me where they read pornography to children and didn’t let parents opt out.

Also if you label yourself an activist then don’t tell me that you don’t have an agenda that you want to impose on my kids.

That wasn’t me, I’m no activist. I just want school to be for reading, writing, spelling, math, grammar, etc and think you can do all of that without ever discussing gay sex in kindergarten.

All these new trendy or made up curriclums are why kids are struggling. Get back to the basics. Give spelling and vocabulary books yearly and have weekly quizzes and assignments. Same with the basics for math, like math facts. Kids cannot be successful in MS or HS with the foundation work done in ES.

Which school is not teaching those?

All the ones we’ve been to. Zero vocab, spelling, math facts or grammar. We did it all at home.

Which score is that? Actually, the spelling tests almost killed me. Love to know where there’s no spelling tests., or math minutes, or grammar for that matter

Yeah, seriously. That person clearly doesn't have elementary school kids, the spelling tests are constant, there are quizzes all the time, and there's tons of attention to vocabulary, grammar, math, etc.

I have HSers in MCPS. They did not have constant spelling tests and quizzes all the time. When did that start happening? As my HSers will tell you, there was very little time devoted grammar as all the kids are learning it now for testing.

If your experience with elementary school is years out of date, maybe don't comment on things you're not familiar with?

I’ve had 12 years and counting of experience with MCPS. Tons more data points than a parent of an elementary schooler. Plus I’m not the only MCPS parent commenting about the lack of testing. But I’m sure with your 1-2 years at one school you know how the education goes for 160,000 kids.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are 2 genders.

And all those troublesome intersex people, but why let biological reality get in the way of a dumb slogan?

That’s high school level biology/genetics curriculum, not kindergarten.

+1 just had this discussion with my 17 yr old DD who has a few gay friends, one who is her bff since 8. She said ES is not age appropriate to bring up these topics.

My older kid had a bff in ES whose parents were gay. It was just matter of fact for them - oh, my bff has two moms, and that was it. ES children don't delve too deeply into the whys and hows. They just accept it. There is no reason to teach them about the rest of the alphabet soup of genders at this age.

Ok. So you asked a cisgender, heterosexual teen, who presumably has cisgender heterosexual parents, and who also has a primarily cisgender and heterosexual peer group, and who has never been a parent, what she thought would be good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents? And you are offering this in the spirit of authority?

DP. Your question was “what’s good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents.” That’s not the charge of our elementary public school system. Getting confused about the mission of public school education is how we got into this situation.

It is absolutely the job of public education to reflect the everyday lives of students, and to create a welcoming environment in which they see their own reality reflected back to them. This contributes to classroom learning.

Then how about doing that for all groups, family styles and disabilities and not just your chosen favorite one.

That's the point! No one is saying only teach about LGBTQ families! Those of us who want "My Uncle's Wedding" read in school ALSO want other books reflecting diverse experiences. Lailah's Lunchbox, Jabari Jumps, Eyes the Kiss Corners, What Happened to You, The Girl who Thought in Pictures.

Why do you want to steal innocence from children? You should reflect on that during therapy.

You think teaching kids about the AAPI experience, or kids with disabilities, is "sealing their innocence?"

Wow.

Wow. This just shows the end agenda of the right-wingers. Nothing but perfect eugenic white families.

I’m not a right winger, I just think school should be for learning. Not your agenda.

Exactly, lets get back to basics. Let politics, personal beliefs, religion and all that to parents' outside the school. They spend more time on this nonsense than they do actual teaching.

Agreed. So why are people trying to force their personal agenda and religion on the school system by demanding the right to review and opt out of what books are read? Let the teachers teach and don't micromanage what books they use to do it or waste their time with having to figure out some complicated opt-out process for your special snowflake You can have your own religion and personal beliefs but you need to communicate those to your children outside of the schools, not tell the schools what they can and can't have in their books.

If you really read this ruling , this is actually another win from Montgomery County Public schools. Because they provided an opt out and they provided excused absences, teachers do not have to change their curriculum. They do not have to ban any books. They do not have to get rid of any of these books.

Yeah, right. You really think our schools have the staffing to pull kids out from classes every time a book like this gets read? They'll have to drop the books for everyone, it's just not feasible. (Or if they do manage to read them with opt outs and pull staff from their duties of actually helping kids to babysitting them because their parents are scared of a children's book, that's still an infuriating imposition of parents' religious beliefs on worsening the effectiveness of our school system. Keep your beliefs at home.)

They will keep it and do like holiday parties and pull out the kids to punish them. How about being culturally sensitive and aware and respecting other’s beliefs. Cultural sensitivity should go both ways and not just your one sided battle view. Keep your views at home if you want others too. Why do you get to impose your values on others but they aren’t allowed to say no? If they imposed their views on your kids, you’d want to be able to say no.

seriously, just have the religious kids in a separate class and on days where everyone else learns about gay people, they can pray instead. but they need to be separated in order to provide material for all kids.

What happens when parents their kids opt out of science class when evolution or anything related is taught?

Or science in general?

This is nuts

As parents, its their choice.

No..they are not educational authorities. They shouldn't have the authority to make the choice.

WTH is an “educational authority?” People who get degrees in education? You’ve got to be kidding.

A lot of teachers don't even have educational degrees and that's not what this is about as its about lifestyle choices.

[Anonymous]

So many of these posts miss that many principals and teachers objected to these books too. I guess we invoke “educational authorities” when it suits our position.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are 2 genders.

And all those troublesome intersex people, but why let biological reality get in the way of a dumb slogan?

That’s high school level biology/genetics curriculum, not kindergarten.

+1 just had this discussion with my 17 yr old DD who has a few gay friends, one who is her bff since 8. She said ES is not age appropriate to bring up these topics.

My older kid had a bff in ES whose parents were gay. It was just matter of fact for them - oh, my bff has two moms, and that was it. ES children don't delve too deeply into the whys and hows. They just accept it. There is no reason to teach them about the rest of the alphabet soup of genders at this age.

Ok. So you asked a cisgender, heterosexual teen, who presumably has cisgender heterosexual parents, and who also has a primarily cisgender and heterosexual peer group, and who has never been a parent, what she thought would be good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents? And you are offering this in the spirit of authority?

DP. Your question was “what’s good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents.” That’s not the charge of our elementary public school system. Getting confused about the mission of public school education is how we got into this situation.

It is absolutely the job of public education to reflect the everyday lives of students, and to create a welcoming environment in which they see their own reality reflected back to them. This contributes to classroom learning.

Then how about doing that for all groups, family styles and disabilities and not just your chosen favorite one.

That's the point! No one is saying only teach about LGBTQ families! Those of us who want "My Uncle's Wedding" read in school ALSO want other books reflecting diverse experiences. Lailah's Lunchbox, Jabari Jumps, Eyes the Kiss Corners, What Happened to You, The Girl who Thought in Pictures.

Why do you want to steal innocence from children? You should reflect on that during therapy.

You think teaching kids about the AAPI experience, or kids with disabilities, is "sealing their innocence?"

Wow.

Wow. This just shows the end agenda of the right-wingers. Nothing but perfect eugenic white families.

I’m not a right winger, I just think school should be for learning. Not your agenda.

Exactly, lets get back to basics. Let politics, personal beliefs, religion and all that to parents' outside the school. They spend more time on this nonsense than they do actual teaching.

Agreed. So why are people trying to force their personal agenda and religion on the school system by demanding the right to review and opt out of what books are read? Let the teachers teach and don't micromanage what books they use to do it or waste their time with having to figure out some complicated opt-out process for your special snowflake You can have your own religion and personal beliefs but you need to communicate those to your children outside of the schools, not tell the schools what they can and can't have in their books.

If you really read this ruling , this is actually another win from Montgomery County Public schools. Because they provided an opt out and they provided excused absences, teachers do not have to change their curriculum. They do not have to ban any books. They do not have to get rid of any of these books.

Yeah, right. You really think our schools have the staffing to pull kids out from classes every time a book like this gets read? They'll have to drop the books for everyone, it's just not feasible. (Or if they do manage to read them with opt outs and pull staff from their duties of actually helping kids to babysitting them because their parents are scared of a children's book, that's still an infuriating imposition of parents' religious beliefs on worsening the effectiveness of our school system. Keep your beliefs at home.)

They will keep it and do like holiday parties and pull out the kids to punish them. How about being culturally sensitive and aware and respecting other’s beliefs. Cultural sensitivity should go both ways and not just your one sided battle view. Keep your views at home if you want others too. Why do you get to impose your values on others but they aren’t allowed to say no? If they imposed their views on your kids, you’d want to be able to say no.

seriously, just have the religious kids in a separate class and on days where everyone else learns about gay people, they can pray instead. but they need to be separated in order to provide material for all kids.

What happens when parents their kids opt out of science class when evolution or anything related is taught?

Or science in general?

This is nuts

As parents, its their choice.

People cannot expect to be able to order their child's public school experience a la carte. If your child having a modern, secular, inclusive school experience bothers you, the "parental choice" option is to pick a different school for them or homeschool them.

Okay, if we’re saying public school shouldn’t be “a la carte”, then presumably you intend to halt ALL opt-outs for parental beliefs, including:

Sex Ed
Field Trips
Required Vaccinations (and not just COVID)
Dissections
Attendance on religious holidays
Class parties
Saying the Pledge of Allegiance
Watching R-rated movies for instructional purposes

And then there are the “a la carte” programs that aren’t open to everyone, including magnet programs, immersion schools, consortium programs and high school academies, they should probably go to. While we’re at it, we might as well get rid of electives, and extracurriculars (including sports).

Let’s be honest, I don’t think you really oppose “a la carte”, you just want parental choice off the menu in this single case, because it goes against your personal BELIEFS, which you want to impose on other families.

Now, consider the hypothetical case where Trump turns full dictator, imposes a new curriculum, and puts Elon Musk in charge of the new Family Life curriculum. Not only does he immediately throw out all of these “DEI” books, but he starts saying that women should be breeders and wants America to go full Handmaids Tale. Would you still think everyone needs to go along with the official curriculum, or would you think you should have the right to opt out when it’s your family’s beliefs that are being undermined?

I suspect that you (along with most of DCUM, including myself), are privileged enough that if you decided the “standard menu” at MCPS was too offensive, you could indeed opt out by switching to private schools, homeschool, or possibly just move altogether. Unfortunately, not all MCPS families have those options available to them. Private school tuition is prohibitively expensive for many (are you’re willing to support vouchers?), families trying to make ends meet might not have a stay-at-home parent who can homeschool (not to mention the countless complications that could make it even more unfeasible), and moving comes with its own set of challenges. Should the Constitutional right to freedom of religion only apply to those wealthy enough to buy it? Moreover, once we allow any of those rights to be compromised for anyone, we have to accept that they are all compromised for everyone. If our rights, which are guaranteed by the Constitution, are no longer considered inviolable, then they are already lost.

This isn’t about whether the Republicans or Democrats are right about trans issues. It’s not about whether these specific books should be taught. It’s not about whether parents can go against MCPS’s wishes, even when it might be inconvenient for MCPS. This is about whether it’s acceptable for MCPS to override a family’s Constitutional right to freedom of religion.

[Anonymous]

MCPS was not overriding Constitutional religious rights by teaching books with diverse characters.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are 2 genders.

And all those troublesome intersex people, but why let biological reality get in the way of a dumb slogan?

That’s high school level biology/genetics curriculum, not kindergarten.

+1 just had this discussion with my 17 yr old DD who has a few gay friends, one who is her bff since 8. She said ES is not age appropriate to bring up these topics.

My older kid had a bff in ES whose parents were gay. It was just matter of fact for them - oh, my bff has two moms, and that was it. ES children don't delve too deeply into the whys and hows. They just accept it. There is no reason to teach them about the rest of the alphabet soup of genders at this age.

Ok. So you asked a cisgender, heterosexual teen, who presumably has cisgender heterosexual parents, and who also has a primarily cisgender and heterosexual peer group, and who has never been a parent, what she thought would be good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents? And you are offering this in the spirit of authority?

DP. Your question was “what’s good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents.” That’s not the charge of our elementary public school system. Getting confused about the mission of public school education is how we got into this situation.

It is absolutely the job of public education to reflect the everyday lives of students, and to create a welcoming environment in which they see their own reality reflected back to them. This contributes to classroom learning.

Then how about doing that for all groups, family styles and disabilities and not just your chosen favorite one.

That's the point! No one is saying only teach about LGBTQ families! Those of us who want "My Uncle's Wedding" read in school ALSO want other books reflecting diverse experiences. Lailah's Lunchbox, Jabari Jumps, Eyes the Kiss Corners, What Happened to You, The Girl who Thought in Pictures.

Why do you want to steal innocence from children? You should reflect on that during therapy.

You think teaching kids about the AAPI experience, or kids with disabilities, is "sealing their innocence?"

Wow.

Wow. This just shows the end agenda of the right-wingers. Nothing but perfect eugenic white families.

I’m not a right winger, I just think school should be for learning. Not your agenda.

Exactly, lets get back to basics. Let politics, personal beliefs, religion and all that to parents' outside the school. They spend more time on this nonsense than they do actual teaching.

Agreed. So why are people trying to force their personal agenda and religion on the school system by demanding the right to review and opt out of what books are read? Let the teachers teach and don't micromanage what books they use to do it or waste their time with having to figure out some complicated opt-out process for your special snowflake You can have your own religion and personal beliefs but you need to communicate those to your children outside of the schools, not tell the schools what they can and can't have in their books.

If you really read this ruling , this is actually another win from Montgomery County Public schools. Because they provided an opt out and they provided excused absences, teachers do not have to change their curriculum. They do not have to ban any books. They do not have to get rid of any of these books.

Yeah, right. You really think our schools have the staffing to pull kids out from classes every time a book like this gets read? They'll have to drop the books for everyone, it's just not feasible. (Or if they do manage to read them with opt outs and pull staff from their duties of actually helping kids to babysitting them because their parents are scared of a children's book, that's still an infuriating imposition of parents' religious beliefs on worsening the effectiveness of our school system. Keep your beliefs at home.)

They will keep it and do like holiday parties and pull out the kids to punish them. How about being culturally sensitive and aware and respecting other’s beliefs. Cultural sensitivity should go both ways and not just your one sided battle view. Keep your views at home if you want others too. Why do you get to impose your values on others but they aren’t allowed to say no? If they imposed their views on your kids, you’d want to be able to say no.

seriously, just have the religious kids in a separate class and on days where everyone else learns about gay people, they can pray instead. but they need to be separated in order to provide material for all kids.

What happens when parents their kids opt out of science class when evolution or anything related is taught?

Or science in general?

This is nuts

As parents, its their choice.

No..they are not educational authorities. They shouldn't have the authority to make the choice.

WTH is an “educational authority?” People who get degrees in education? You’ve got to be kidding.

Again, such disdain for teaching as a profession.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are 2 genders.

And all those troublesome intersex people, but why let biological reality get in the way of a dumb slogan?

That’s high school level biology/genetics curriculum, not kindergarten.

+1 just had this discussion with my 17 yr old DD who has a few gay friends, one who is her bff since 8. She said ES is not age appropriate to bring up these topics.

My older kid had a bff in ES whose parents were gay. It was just matter of fact for them - oh, my bff has two moms, and that was it. ES children don't delve too deeply into the whys and hows. They just accept it. There is no reason to teach them about the rest of the alphabet soup of genders at this age.

Ok. So you asked a cisgender, heterosexual teen, who presumably has cisgender heterosexual parents, and who also has a primarily cisgender and heterosexual peer group, and who has never been a parent, what she thought would be good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents? And you are offering this in the spirit of authority?

DP. Your question was “what’s good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents.” That’s not the charge of our elementary public school system. Getting confused about the mission of public school education is how we got into this situation.

It is absolutely the job of public education to reflect the everyday lives of students, and to create a welcoming environment in which they see their own reality reflected back to them. This contributes to classroom learning.

Then how about doing that for all groups, family styles and disabilities and not just your chosen favorite one.

That's the point! No one is saying only teach about LGBTQ families! Those of us who want "My Uncle's Wedding" read in school ALSO want other books reflecting diverse experiences. Lailah's Lunchbox, Jabari Jumps, Eyes the Kiss Corners, What Happened to You, The Girl who Thought in Pictures.

Why do you want to steal innocence from children? You should reflect on that during therapy.

You think teaching kids about the AAPI experience, or kids with disabilities, is "sealing their innocence?"

Wow.

Wow. This just shows the end agenda of the right-wingers. Nothing but perfect eugenic white families.

I’m not a right winger, I just think school should be for learning. Not your agenda.

Exactly, lets get back to basics. Let politics, personal beliefs, religion and all that to parents' outside the school. They spend more time on this nonsense than they do actual teaching.

Agreed. So why are people trying to force their personal agenda and religion on the school system by demanding the right to review and opt out of what books are read? Let the teachers teach and don't micromanage what books they use to do it or waste their time with having to figure out some complicated opt-out process for your special snowflake You can have your own religion and personal beliefs but you need to communicate those to your children outside of the schools, not tell the schools what they can and can't have in their books.

If you really read this ruling , this is actually another win from Montgomery County Public schools. Because they provided an opt out and they provided excused absences, teachers do not have to change their curriculum. They do not have to ban any books. They do not have to get rid of any of these books.

Yeah, right. You really think our schools have the staffing to pull kids out from classes every time a book like this gets read? They'll have to drop the books for everyone, it's just not feasible. (Or if they do manage to read them with opt outs and pull staff from their duties of actually helping kids to babysitting them because their parents are scared of a children's book, that's still an infuriating imposition of parents' religious beliefs on worsening the effectiveness of our school system. Keep your beliefs at home.)

They will keep it and do like holiday parties and pull out the kids to punish them. How about being culturally sensitive and aware and respecting other’s beliefs. Cultural sensitivity should go both ways and not just your one sided battle view. Keep your views at home if you want others too. Why do you get to impose your values on others but they aren’t allowed to say no? If they imposed their views on your kids, you’d want to be able to say no.

seriously, just have the religious kids in a separate class and on days where everyone else learns about gay people, they can pray instead. but they need to be separated in order to provide material for all kids.

What happens when parents their kids opt out of science class when evolution or anything related is taught?

Or science in general?

This is nuts

As parents, its their choice.

People cannot expect to be able to order their child's public school experience a la carte. If your child having a modern, secular, inclusive school experience bothers you, the "parental choice" option is to pick a different school for them or homeschool them.

Okay, if we’re saying public school shouldn’t be “a la carte”, then presumably you intend to halt ALL opt-outs for parental beliefs, including:

Sex Ed
Field Trips
Required Vaccinations (and not just COVID)
Dissections
Attendance on religious holidays
Class parties
Saying the Pledge of Allegiance
Watching R-rated movies for instructional purposes

And then there are the “a la carte” programs that aren’t open to everyone, including magnet programs, immersion schools, consortium programs and high school academies, they should probably go to. While we’re at it, we might as well get rid of electives, and extracurriculars (including sports).

Let’s be honest, I don’t think you really oppose “a la carte”, you just want parental choice off the menu in this single case, because it goes against your personal BELIEFS, which you want to impose on other families.

Now, consider the hypothetical case where Trump turns full dictator, imposes a new curriculum, and puts Elon Musk in charge of the new Family Life curriculum. Not only does he immediately throw out all of these “DEI” books, but he starts saying that women should be breeders and wants America to go full Handmaids Tale. Would you still think everyone needs to go along with the official curriculum, or would you think you should have the right to opt out when it’s your family’s beliefs that are being undermined?

I suspect that you (along with most of DCUM, including myself), are privileged enough that if you decided the “standard menu” at MCPS was too offensive, you could indeed opt out by switching to private schools, homeschool, or possibly just move altogether. Unfortunately, not all MCPS families have those options available to them. Private school tuition is prohibitively expensive for many (are you’re willing to support vouchers?), families trying to make ends meet might not have a stay-at-home parent who can homeschool (not to mention the countless complications that could make it even more unfeasible), and moving comes with its own set of challenges. Should the Constitutional right to freedom of religion only apply to those wealthy enough to buy it? Moreover, once we allow any of those rights to be compromised for anyone, we have to accept that they are all compromised for everyone. If our rights, which are guaranteed by the Constitution, are no longer considered inviolable, then they are already lost.

This isn’t about whether the Republicans or Democrats are right about trans issues. It’s not about whether these specific books should be taught. It’s not about whether parents can go against MCPS’s wishes, even when it might be inconvenient for MCPS. This is about whether it’s acceptable for MCPS to override a family’s Constitutional right to freedom of religion.

How about choice. How about respecting all cultures, religions and beliefs. You are not inclusive at all.

Sex Ed - has always had an opt out
Field Trips - parents sign a permission slip and you can say no
Required Vaccinations (and not just COVID) - there have always been exemptions
Dissections - they don’t do them at our school but we were sent a form and I opted out
Attendance on religious holidays- parents have always had the option
Class parties - our schools offered an alternative
Saying the Pledge of Allegiance - they don’t say it in mcps But kids should have the option of omitting words or not saying it. Not everyone believes in god.
Watching R-rated movies for instructional purposes- this should never happen and I’ve never seen it. Not ok.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For the parents opting their children out of lessons because those lessons include a same sex couple family, please know that the vast majority of us judge you harshly as a bigot and your kids will likely suffer social consequences because of your intolerance. I feel bad for them, especially those who are themselves gay. Shame on you, you intolerant and insecure people.

The vibe has shifted. I think you’ll be surprised at who is judging who here.

No such thing as a "bigot". This is a fake, made up social construct that liberals made up for people who don't agree with them. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone an uneducated, narrow minded "bigot". It just means someone doesn't agree wth your social activist agenda.

It always interesting when folks throw out the phrase social activist as though that is a bad thing. They forgot that the founding fathers are social activist, the suffragist are social activist, Abolitionist are social activist, Etc etc. I’m pretty sure social activist consider themselves in good company of people who people and movements that have had transformational change good for humanity.

Oh yes the whole founding father’s argument again. Show me where they read pornography to children and didn’t let parents opt out.

Also if you label yourself an activist then don’t tell me that you don’t have an agenda that you want to impose on my kids.

That wasn’t me, I’m no activist. I just want school to be for reading, writing, spelling, math, grammar, etc and think you can do all of that without ever discussing gay sex in kindergarten.

All these new trendy or made up curriclums are why kids are struggling. Get back to the basics. Give spelling and vocabulary books yearly and have weekly quizzes and assignments. Same with the basics for math, like math facts. Kids cannot be successful in MS or HS with the foundation work done in ES.

Which school is not teaching those?

All the ones we’ve been to. Zero vocab, spelling, math facts or grammar. We did it all at home.

Which score is that? Actually, the spelling tests almost killed me. Love to know where there’s no spelling tests., or math minutes, or grammar for that matter

Yeah, seriously. That person clearly doesn't have elementary school kids, the spelling tests are constant, there are quizzes all the time, and there's tons of attention to vocabulary, grammar, math, etc.

I have HSers in MCPS. They did not have constant spelling tests and quizzes all the time. When did that start happening? As my HSers will tell you, there was very little time devoted grammar as all the kids are learning it now for testing.

If your experience with elementary school is years out of date, maybe don't comment on things you're not familiar with?

I’ve had 12 years and counting of experience with MCPS. Tons more data points than a parent of an elementary schooler. Plus I’m not the only MCPS parent commenting about the lack of testing. But I’m sure with your 1-2 years at one school you know how the education goes for 160,000 kids.

I mean it's off-topic for this post, but while I'm sure there are some things that longer experience in MCPS equip parents of high schoolers to know better than parents of elementary schoolers, "What is elementary school like at MCPS today?" is not one of them. And while obviously some teachers and schools may deviate sometimes, the math curriculum and both the prior and current ELA curricula have been pretty canned, so for the most part, elementary school kids across the district are getting the same lessons, assignments, quizzes, tests, etc-- it's not just "one school."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCPS was not overriding Constitutional religious rights by teaching books with diverse characters.

PP who made the post about Constitutional rights.

I absolutely AGREE with you that MCPS was not overriding Constitutional religious rights by teaching books with diverse characters. It violated Constitutional religious rights by not allowing parents to opt out of that teaching on religious grounds.

Similarly, it doesn’t violate Constitutional rights when they teach sex ed, hold holiday parties, say the pledge, require vaccinations, etc., BECAUSE parents whose personal beliefs (religious or otherwise) would be offended by those requirements are allowed to opt their children out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I am curious why the Jewish and Muslim families who supported this opt out do not see how this opens the way for parents to push for opting out of having kids read story books with Jewish or Muslim characters on the basis of the religious burden that including these characters might do to Christian kids. Christian parents can argue that seeing these characters at a young age could be burdensome to their religious beliefs and that they want to introduce their kids to the existence of these types of beliefs when they are older. I think people forget that respecting diversity that includes your beliefs also means respecting diversity that does not. Anyways, I get why male, straight, Christian conservative white nationalists would celebrate this ruling. I disagree, but it makes sense. For anyone not part of this group, I do not understand.

I am Jewish and if elementary school kids did not read books about Jewish characters I would not really care. In fact, my kids have not read any school books with Jewish characters in all their time in public school - and they are both in middle school. I would not have pulled my kids out for the books in question in this case, but I also do not think your scenario would be a big concern.

What about non-fiction books. They can also object because the history class's textbook depicts a belief against theirs.

Exactly because MoCo dug in and took the case to the Supreme Court, now we have a new precedent that will make life harder for all schools. If the district has compromised, this would not have happened.

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Anonymous wrote:For the parents opting their children out of lessons because those lessons include a same sex couple family, please know that the vast majority of us judge you harshly as a bigot and your kids will likely suffer social consequences because of your intolerance. I feel bad for them, especially those who are themselves gay. Shame on you, you intolerant and insecure people.

The vibe has shifted. I think you’ll be surprised at who is judging who here.

No such thing as a "bigot". This is a fake, made up social construct that liberals made up for people who don't agree with them. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone an uneducated, narrow minded "bigot". It just means someone doesn't agree wth your social activist agenda.

It always interesting when folks throw out the phrase social activist as though that is a bad thing. They forgot that the founding fathers are social activist, the suffragist are social activist, Abolitionist are social activist, Etc etc. I’m pretty sure social activist consider themselves in good company of people who people and movements that have had transformational change good for humanity.

Oh yes the whole founding father’s argument again. Show me where they read pornography to children and didn’t let parents opt out.

Also if you label yourself an activist then don’t tell me that you don’t have an agenda that you want to impose on my kids.

That wasn’t me, I’m no activist. I just want school to be for reading, writing, spelling, math, grammar, etc and think you can do all of that without ever discussing gay sex in kindergarten.

All these new trendy or made up curriclums are why kids are struggling. Get back to the basics. Give spelling and vocabulary books yearly and have weekly quizzes and assignments. Same with the basics for math, like math facts. Kids cannot be successful in MS or HS with the foundation work done in ES.

Which school is not teaching those?

All the ones we’ve been to. Zero vocab, spelling, math facts or grammar. We did it all at home.

Which score is that? Actually, the spelling tests almost killed me. Love to know where there’s no spelling tests., or math minutes, or grammar for that matter

Yeah, seriously. That person clearly doesn't have elementary school kids, the spelling tests are constant, there are quizzes all the time, and there's tons of attention to vocabulary, grammar, math, etc.

I have HSers in MCPS. They did not have constant spelling tests and quizzes all the time. When did that start happening? As my HSers will tell you, there was very little time devoted grammar as all the kids are learning it now for testing.

If your experience with elementary school is years out of date, maybe don't comment on things you're not familiar with?

I’ve had 12 years and counting of experience with MCPS. Tons more data points than a parent of an elementary schooler. Plus I’m not the only MCPS parent commenting about the lack of testing. But I’m sure with your 1-2 years at one school you know how the education goes for 160,000 kids.

I mean it's off-topic for this post, but while I'm sure there are some things that longer experience in MCPS equip parents of high schoolers to know better than parents of elementary schoolers, "What is elementary school like at MCPS today?" is not one of them. And while obviously some teachers and schools may deviate sometimes, the math curriculum and both the prior and current ELA curricula have been pretty canned, so for the most part, elementary school kids across the district are getting the same lessons, assignments, quizzes, tests, etc-- it's not just "one school."

Its very school and teacher specific. Friends that have ES kids where we live say they aren't getting spelling, grammar, math facts, and quizzes.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are 2 genders.

And all those troublesome intersex people, but why let biological reality get in the way of a dumb slogan?

That’s high school level biology/genetics curriculum, not kindergarten.

+1 just had this discussion with my 17 yr old DD who has a few gay friends, one who is her bff since 8. She said ES is not age appropriate to bring up these topics.

My older kid had a bff in ES whose parents were gay. It was just matter of fact for them - oh, my bff has two moms, and that was it. ES children don't delve too deeply into the whys and hows. They just accept it. There is no reason to teach them about the rest of the alphabet soup of genders at this age.

Ok. So you asked a cisgender, heterosexual teen, who presumably has cisgender heterosexual parents, and who also has a primarily cisgender and heterosexual peer group, and who has never been a parent, what she thought would be good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents? And you are offering this in the spirit of authority?

DP. Your question was “what’s good for queer kids and kids with same sex parents.” That’s not the charge of our elementary public school system. Getting confused about the mission of public school education is how we got into this situation.

It is absolutely the job of public education to reflect the everyday lives of students, and to create a welcoming environment in which they see their own reality reflected back to them. This contributes to classroom learning.

Then how about doing that for all groups, family styles and disabilities and not just your chosen favorite one.

That's the point! No one is saying only teach about LGBTQ families! Those of us who want "My Uncle's Wedding" read in school ALSO want other books reflecting diverse experiences. Lailah's Lunchbox, Jabari Jumps, Eyes the Kiss Corners, What Happened to You, The Girl who Thought in Pictures.

Why do you want to steal innocence from children? You should reflect on that during therapy.

You think teaching kids about the AAPI experience, or kids with disabilities, is "sealing their innocence?"

Wow.

Wow. This just shows the end agenda of the right-wingers. Nothing but perfect eugenic white families.

I’m not a right winger, I just think school should be for learning. Not your agenda.

Exactly, lets get back to basics. Let politics, personal beliefs, religion and all that to parents' outside the school. They spend more time on this nonsense than they do actual teaching.

Agreed. So why are people trying to force their personal agenda and religion on the school system by demanding the right to review and opt out of what books are read? Let the teachers teach and don't micromanage what books they use to do it or waste their time with having to figure out some complicated opt-out process for your special snowflake You can have your own religion and personal beliefs but you need to communicate those to your children outside of the schools, not tell the schools what they can and can't have in their books.

If you really read this ruling , this is actually another win from Montgomery County Public schools. Because they provided an opt out and they provided excused absences, teachers do not have to change their curriculum. They do not have to ban any books. They do not have to get rid of any of these books.

Yeah, right. You really think our schools have the staffing to pull kids out from classes every time a book like this gets read? They'll have to drop the books for everyone, it's just not feasible. (Or if they do manage to read them with opt outs and pull staff from their duties of actually helping kids to babysitting them because their parents are scared of a children's book, that's still an infuriating imposition of parents' religious beliefs on worsening the effectiveness of our school system. Keep your beliefs at home.)

They will keep it and do like holiday parties and pull out the kids to punish them. How about being culturally sensitive and aware and respecting other’s beliefs. Cultural sensitivity should go both ways and not just your one sided battle view. Keep your views at home if you want others too. Why do you get to impose your values on others but they aren’t allowed to say no? If they imposed their views on your kids, you’d want to be able to say no.

seriously, just have the religious kids in a separate class and on days where everyone else learns about gay people, they can pray instead. but they need to be separated in order to provide material for all kids.

What happens when parents their kids opt out of science class when evolution or anything related is taught?

Or science in general?

This is nuts

As parents, its their choice.

People cannot expect to be able to order their child's public school experience a la carte. If your child having a modern, secular, inclusive school experience bothers you, the "parental choice" option is to pick a different school for them or homeschool them.

Okay, if we’re saying public school shouldn’t be “a la carte”, then presumably you intend to halt ALL opt-outs for parental beliefs, including:

Sex Ed
Field Trips
Required Vaccinations (and not just COVID)
Dissections
Attendance on religious holidays
Class parties
Saying the Pledge of Allegiance
Watching R-rated movies for instructional purposes

And then there are the “a la carte” programs that aren’t open to everyone, including magnet programs, immersion schools, consortium programs and high school academies, they should probably go to. While we’re at it, we might as well get rid of electives, and extracurriculars (including sports).

Let’s be honest, I don’t think you really oppose “a la carte”, you just want parental choice off the menu in this single case, because it goes against your personal BELIEFS, which you want to impose on other families.

Now, consider the hypothetical case where Trump turns full dictator, imposes a new curriculum, and puts Elon Musk in charge of the new Family Life curriculum. Not only does he immediately throw out all of these “DEI” books, but he starts saying that women should be breeders and wants America to go full Handmaids Tale. Would you still think everyone needs to go along with the official curriculum, or would you think you should have the right to opt out when it’s your family’s beliefs that are being undermined?

I suspect that you (along with most of DCUM, including myself), are privileged enough that if you decided the “standard menu” at MCPS was too offensive, you could indeed opt out by switching to private schools, homeschool, or possibly just move altogether. Unfortunately, not all MCPS families have those options available to them. Private school tuition is prohibitively expensive for many (are you’re willing to support vouchers?), families trying to make ends meet might not have a stay-at-home parent who can homeschool (not to mention the countless complications that could make it even more unfeasible), and moving comes with its own set of challenges. Should the Constitutional right to freedom of religion only apply to those wealthy enough to buy it? Moreover, once we allow any of those rights to be compromised for anyone, we have to accept that they are all compromised for everyone. If our rights, which are guaranteed by the Constitution, are no longer considered inviolable, then they are already lost.

This isn’t about whether the Republicans or Democrats are right about trans issues. It’s not about whether these specific books should be taught. It’s not about whether parents can go against MCPS’s wishes, even when it might be inconvenient for MCPS. This is about whether it’s acceptable for MCPS to override a family’s Constitutional right to freedom of religion.

How about choice. How about respecting all cultures, religions and beliefs. You are not inclusive at all.

Sex Ed - has always had an opt out
Field Trips - parents sign a permission slip and you can say no
Required Vaccinations (and not just COVID) - there have always been exemptions
Dissections - they don’t do them at our school but we were sent a form and I opted out
Attendance on religious holidays- parents have always had the option
Class parties - our schools offered an alternative
Saying the Pledge of Allegiance - they don’t say it in mcps But kids should have the option of omitting words or not saying it. Not everyone believes in god.
Watching R-rated movies for instructional purposes- this should never happen and I’ve never seen it. Not ok.

Pp you responded to:

I’m afraid I’m confused. You seem to vigorously disagree with me, but then you seem to support my position.

For the record:

I respect ALL cultures, religions, and beliefs. While I may not agree with everyone’s beliefs (which would seem an impossibility as different people hold contradictory beliefs), I believe that EVERYONE should be treated with courtesy and respect (regardless of their particular culture, religion, or beliefs).

I think children should be taught that while everyone is different in countless ways (including, but certainly not limited to, culture, religion, and beliefs), those differences are good because they make each individual uniquely special and together make society stronger. (It would be awfully boring if everyone was just like me. Even worse, I don’t have the hubris to imagine that I am omniscient and omnipotent, so undoubtedly a world full of mes would be an awful disaster.). I think children should be taught that regardless of whatever differences there are, they should treat everyone as they, themselves, would want to be treated.

Sex Ed - has always had an opt out
BECAUSE THEY ALWAYS KNEW DOME PARENTS MIGHT OBJECT
Field Trips - parents sign a permission slip and you can say no
BECAUSE PARENTS MIGHT OBJECT
Required Vaccinations (and not just COVID) - there have always been exemptions
BECAUSE PARENTS MIGHT OBJECT
Dissections - they don’t do them at our school but we were sent a form and I opted out
BECAUSE PARENTS (LIKE YOU) MIGHT OBJECT
Attendance on religious holidays- parents have always had the option
BECAUSE PARENTS MIGHT OBJECT
Class parties - our schools offered an alternative
BECAUSE PARENTS MIGHT OBJECT
Saying the Pledge of Allegiance - they don’t say it in mcps But kids should have the option of omitting words or not saying it. Not everyone believes in god.
ACCORDING TO THIS MCPS REGULATION SCHOOLS SHOULD BE SAYING IT (page 2, III.B.2.c.) BUT STUDENTS SHOULD NOT BE COMPELLED (EFFECTIVELY OPTING OUT) (page 3, III.B.3)
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/policy/pdf/ecira.pdf
I AGREE THAT KIDS SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION OF OMITTING WORDS OR NOT SAYING IT. I’M WELL AWARE THAT NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN GOD AND AGREE THAT IT SHOULD BE RESPECTED, NOT JUST AS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BUT BECAUSE IT IS GUARANTEED IN THE CONSTITUTION.
Watching R-rated movies for instructional purposes- this should never happen and I’ve never seen it. Not ok.
SEE BELOW

I did further research, and the details about movies are murky. As near as I can tell (with limited access to the Washington Post), way back in 2005, MCPS prohibited R-rated films. This apparently provoked sufficient complaints that they reconsidered in 2006 and I THINK? they decided to allow R rated movies as long as parents signed a waiver for any film shown to students younger than the age rating (whether or not that rating was R). The waiver is still apparently in use, but it is unclear whether R rated movies (or for that matter PG-13) or still shown. Logic would indicate that they most likely allow PG movies, else there would be no need for the waiver. Regardless, if they do show R-rated movies, you would have the option to opt out, because they respect a parent’s right to refuse to expose their child to material they find objectionable. Here are the relevant links I was able to find:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2006/03/05/film-restrictions-in-montgomery-schools-earn-poor-reviews/38ba99f8-3aeb-4637-917c-a7904408a252/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2006/10/12/seeing-a-movie-in-class-bring-your-id/e0beffe7-8f63-47e7-8429-0eef82e58c0d/

https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/forms/detail.aspx?formID=209&formNumber=365-21&catID=1&subCatId=35

https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/forms/pdf/365-25.pdf

https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/forms/pdf/365-21.pdf

I apologize for not researching my examples more thoroughly, initially, and will modify them to be more accurate in the future. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

[Anonymous]

If you don’t understand how often students in mcps opt out of various things, you don’t have a student in mcps. They can basically opt out if anything has been our experience. Very respectful and tolerant.